Should Norwich see more through trains?

[Trainfan344]

With the leisure market being the new dominant force in Rail Travel, should an effort be made to run services to other places such as Leeds or Birmingham?

Would also take away from people having to interchange at Peterborough which is never a pleasent experience.

Calls at places like Doncaster or Nuneaton opens travel opportunities up too.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Doesn't Ely North Junction need hundreds of millions spending on it before any significant number of additional trains can be run through it?

 

[JonathanH]

With the leisure market being the new dominant force in Rail Travel, should an effort be made to run services to other places such as Leeds or Birmingham?

No.

If anything, trains from Norwich should terminate at Peterborough and not go further, removing the slow trains from the ECML between Peterborough and Grantham and enabling transfer of the residual Norwich to Peterborough service to Greater Anglia.

Would also take away from people having to interchange at Peterborough which is never a pleasent experience.

Calls at places like Doncaster or Nuneaton opens travel opportunities up too.

Interchange at Doncaster or Nuneaton is no more pleasant an experience than interchange at Peterborough.

If Norwich trains went to Birmingham instead of Nottingham all that happens is a different set of travellers have to change trains at a different station.

 

[transportphoto]

Would also take away from people having to interchange at Peterborough which is never a pleasent experience.

I’ve interchanged at Peterborough a good number of times over the years and would dispute the unpleasantness of this experience - it’s a perfect station for such changes, suitable on station facilities including waiting room, cafés, etc, and then a large Waitrose store on the doorstep for any additional spending/time killing. Accessible throughout, and for northbound journeys you’re only likely to be changing between platform seven and four.

Could you expand on your thoughts on issues at Peterborough which could, in turn, support your hypothesis for further through services?

 

[TheBigD]

Doesn't Ely North Junction need hundreds of millions spending on it before any significant number of additional trains can be run through it?

Not just Ely North Junction. Plenty of level crossing mitigation work needed as well on the routes to Peterborough, Kings Lynn, Norwich, Ipswich, and Cambridge.

 

[A S Leib]

Doesn't Ely North Junction need hundreds of millions spending on it before any significant number of additional trains can be run through it?

Is there currently enough capacity to increase the Ipswich - Peterborough service to hourly or not?

 

[TheBigD]

Is there currently enough capacity to increase the Ipswich - Peterborough service to hourly or not?

Not unless you either remove/reroute or retime a lot of container trains to/from Felixstowe.

 

[yorksrob]

I’ve interchanged at Peterborough a good number of times over the years and would dispute the unpleasantness of this experience - it’s a perfect station for such changes, suitable on station facilities including waiting room, cafés, etc, and then a large Waitrose store on the doorstep for any additional spending/time killing. Accessible throughout, and for northbound journeys you’re only likely to be changing between platform seven and four.

Could you expand on your thoughts on issues at Peterborough which could, in turn, support your hypothesis for further through services?

It could do with a decent station bar, to be fair (although I have used the hotel outside on occasion).

 

[Bald Rick]

Is there currently enough capacity to increase the Ipswich - Peterborough service to hourly or not?

no.

that route serves the local and national economy, and the railway bottom line, much better as primarily a freight line.

 

[ashkeba]

no.

that route serves the local and national economy, and the railway bottom line, much better as primarily a freight line.

The rubbish connection times at Ely must be a significant drag on the local economy and transport emissios reductions. It is a shame that a way cannot be found to run both freight and houry pasengers on one line.

 

[zwk500]

The rubbish connection times at Ely must be a significant drag on the local economy and transport emissios reductions. It is a shame that a way cannot be found to run both freight and houry pasengers on one line.

The way to do it is well known - it's the cost that cannot be met.

 

[47421]

In a post franchises world there ought to be scope for mixing and matching destinations between East Anglia and cross country destinations, so Ipswich Stansted Cambridge and Norwich all had direct services to all of stations to Birmingham and Liverpool, which would provide a hugely increased number of direct station pairs. Capacity across the fens could be enhanced if services joined westbound and split eastbound at Ely. Appreciate there are all kinds of reasons why that would not be easy to implement, and doing so probably is not in the top thousand of problems that need addressing as the world of franchising is abolished

 

[TheBigD]

The rubbish connection times at Ely must be a significant drag on the local economy and transport emissios reductions. It is a shame that a way cannot be found to run both freight and houry pasengers on one line.

There is a way. Spending lots of millions £££ redoubling Ely North Junction and other track alterations in the Ely area, and a whole lot of level crossing mitigation or closures. From memory I think it was 126 crossings across the Lynn, Norwich, Peterbronx, Cambridge, and Ipswich lines.

The Ely North Junction upgrade thread covers it in detail.

Without checking I think 2031 was the target completion date, assuming that it got funding etc, but happy to be corrected.

 

[JonathanH]

In a post franchises world there ought to be scope for mixing and matching destinations between East Anglia and cross country destinations, so Ipswich Stansted Cambridge and Norwich all had direct services to all of stations to Birmingham and Liverpool, which would provide a hugely increased number of direct station pairs.

Not really.

It makes the railway more expensive to operate because more traincrew need more route knowledge.

The connections might fall on the wrong hour for people to find useful.

It would lead either to uneven pathing between Norwich, Ipswich, and Cambridge and Ely.

Capacity across the fens could be enhanced if services joined westbound and split eastbound at Ely.

That would be at the cost of reliability and capacity at Ely Station, not to mention longer journey times.

 

[Bald Rick]

The rubbish connection times at Ely must be a significant drag on the local economy and transport emissios reductions. It is a shame that a way cannot be found to run both freight and houry pasengers on one line.

By far the best way of reducing local transport emissions is to take the passenger service off and run more freights.

Not a popular solution for the passengers, I suspect.

 

[py_megapixel]

By far the best way of reducing local transport emissions is to take the passenger service off and run more freights.

Not a popular solution for the passengers, I suspect.

Especially considering that line has just acquired a shiny new station, at great expense and with much fanfare!

 

[Sad Sprinter]

It seems the answer is "yes - because through Cross-Country routes are interesting from an enthusiasts perspective" and "no, because it's not practical"

 

[Trainfan344]

’Could you expand on your thoughts on issues at Peterborough which could, in turn, support your hypothesis for further through services?

The platforms are always cold, if you're there for a while then you have no decent facilities on the station.

If you want to get food or drink you have to walk miles to the station entrance then the only thing is a Waitrose.

Time passes incredibly slowly at Peterborough too, minutes feel like hours.

If you have treked to the Waitrose, after the staff and customers have finished glaring down their noses at you and you've paid for expensive food you then have to walk all the way back to the station.

After some time your train will inevitably be late, because either the East Coast or something has fallen over. It's at this time you decide that it's just easier to drive.

 

[Bald Rick]

Especially considering that line has just acquired a shiny new station, at great expense and with much fanfare!

well exactly. Not one of the railway’s better decisions, in my opinion.

 

[cle]

well exactly. Not one of the railway’s better decisions, in my opinion.

Would you think a second Ipswich-Cambridge frequency service a better shout for that line? And nothing passenger between Ely and Kennett?

Given not as many conflicts at Ely, could another service be squeezed to run X-Cambridge-Peterborough-Y instead? Like the second Birmingham mentioned, on from Leicester?

 

[CBlue]

It could do with a decent station bar, to be fair (although I have used the hotel outside on occasion).

Pop your way across Bourges Boulevard, 5 mins from the station you'll find the Brewery Tap which happily serves a full range of Oakham Ales brews.

The platforms are always cold, if you're there for a while then you have no decent facilities on the station.

If you want to get food or drink you have to walk miles to the station entrance then the only thing is a Waitrose.

Time passes incredibly slowly at Peterborough too, minutes feel like hours.

If you have treked to the Waitrose, after the staff and customers have finished glaring down their noses at you and you've paid for expensive food you then have to walk all the way back to the station.

After some time your train will inevitably be late, because either the East Coast or something has fallen over. It's at this time you decide that it's just easier to drive.

I don't really see how these complaints, hyberbolic as they are (come off it, it's not "miles" from platforms to the ticket barriers, if it's cold I suggest you wear a thicker jacket and what's all this wibble about Waitrose?) justify the reason for ridiculously infrequent cross-country services - although such services are also a fantastic way to ensure people use their car rather than depend on a scarce service that inevitably won't run at the times they want.

 

[TheBigD]

Would you think a second Ipswich-Cambridge frequency service a better shout for that line? And nothing passenger between Ely and Kennett?

Given not as many conflicts at Ely, could another service be squeezed to run X-Cambridge-Peterborough-Y instead? Like the second Birmingham mentioned, on from Leicester?

The current infrastructure on the Cambridge to Chippenham Junction does not allow for much more than the current hourly Cambridge to Ipswich service. There is only one passing loop at Dullingham. At a push you could get an extra service every 2 hours or so but being realistic the performance would suffer.

As for extra services Cambridge to Peterborough, that again runs in to the same issues with Ely North Junction and the need for level crossing mitigation on the Ely to Peterborough route.

Until someone gets the chequebook out for the infrastructure improvements I don't see much changing.

 

[yorksrob]

Pop your way across Bourges Boulevard, 5 mins from the station you'll find the Brewery Tap which happily serves a full range of Oakham Ales brews.

I shall bear that in mind for next time !

 

[Starmill]

I've often wondered if it would actually make more sense to effectively bin the through service between Norwich and Nottingham, and run it as a portion off the service from Birmingham instead, dividing and combining at Ely. Through services to Leicester, Nuneaton, Birmingham would probably be slightly more popular long term than ones to Grantham, Nottingham, Derby, and these could then be six car between Birmingham and Ely, with appropriate platform extensions. It would be a bit of a mess to find the rolling stock though. It's also very likely that the frequency cut between Grantham and Nottingham would go down very badly, although there's no reason a service from Matlock or Crewe couldn't extend to Grantham instead.

 

[47421]

Not really.

It makes the railway more expensive to operate because more traincrew need more route knowledge.

The connections might fall on the wrong hour for people to find useful.

It would lead either to uneven pathing between Norwich, Ipswich, and Cambridge and Ely.


That would be at the cost of reliability and capacity at Ely Station, not to mention longer journey times.

yes more expensive, but revenue would be enhanced as direct journeys more attractive than changing
yes some connections worse, but connections irrelevant on the many new journeys that can be made with no changes
yes uneven pathing a pain, but that is inevitable, today frequencies, stopping patterns and spacing of services far from regular/even on many Anglia routes
yes some reliability and capacity cost, but capacity released by running fewer longer trains, and some small time cost (Norwich trains have a minimum 4 mins at Ely to reverse in any event) to current direct journeys, balanced by much shorter journey times where a change is no longer required

dont get me wrong, i get it is not a priority, but it is a route where my sense is franchise maps and entrenched service patterns have led to a service that is sub-optimal from a passenger user-friendliness and overall aggregate revenue generation perspective. There is after all, other than historic accident, no reason why Stansted and Cambridge should have services to Birmingham but not Notts/Sheffield/Manchester/Liverpool, and Norwich the reverse, while Ipswich and Bury (together have almost as much footfall as Norwich) dont have any services beyond Peterborough at all

 

[ashkeba]

By far the best way of reducing local transport emissions is to take the passenger service off and run more freights.

Not a popular solution for the passengers, I suspect.

By "best way" do you mean the biggest reduction?

I'd like to see the numbers on that because my impression is that most freight is through traffic not local, but it doesn't address the other point. The local economy needs people moved around. People make deals. Containers don't.

Yes, Ely North should be upgraded to cope. Probably some other shocking doubling or re doubling is needed too?

 

[TheBigD]

Yes, Ely North should be upgraded to cope. Probably some other shocking doubling or re doubling is needed too?

Redoubling Haughley Junction, doubling Soham to Ely will probably be needed to get the maximum benefit from the Ely area improvements.

 

[6Gman]

I've often wondered if it would actually make more sense to effectively bin the through service between Norwich and Nottingham, and run it as a portion off the service from Birmingham instead, dividing and combining at Ely. Through services to Leicester, Nuneaton, Birmingham would probably be slightly more popular long term than ones to Grantham, Nottingham, Derby, and these could then be six car between Birmingham and Ely, with appropriate platform extensions. It would be a bit of a mess to find the rolling stock though. It's also very likely that the frequency cut between Grantham and Nottingham would go down very badly, although there's no reason a service from Matlock or Crewe couldn't extend to Grantham instead.

Dividing and combining services at a location without a traincrew depot is rarely a brilliant idea.

 

[JonathanH]

I've often wondered if it would actually make more sense to effectively bin the through service between Norwich and Nottingham, and run it as a portion off the service from Birmingham instead, dividing and combining at Ely.

Why bother with splitting and joining when it is possible to just run Norwich to Peterborough and terminate there with a suitable connection into the XC service? Does Peterborough to Leicester need double length trains?

As you note, options to run 2tph Grantham to Nottingham exist without the trains running south of there.

 

[Trainfan344]

Why should East Anglia continue to suffer from poor connections? Throwing your passengers out halfway to their actual destination just sounds like a terrible idea.