Should passengers be allowed to sit in 1st class when standard class seating runs out

[Hadders]

All seats should be first class seats. How hard can it be?
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Now this is what Im talking about! ...

You obviously don't use Thameslink or Great Northern! The new trains that are on their way will have fewer seats so more people can stand

 

[Mutant Lemming]

We need more segregation on trains - a carriage to suit all needs. Snob Class, Spoilt Brat Class, Blank Out the World with My Personal Noise Class, Feeding Frenzy Class, Kyle Class. TOCs could probably even get away with charging a premium to use them.

 

[6Gman]

All parts of a first class carriage are first class. This includes doors, vestibules, toilets, luggage racks and any other flat surfaces! No loopholes there guv.

In the old days of Mk I LHCS I used to use First Class toilets as they were more spacious.

I now realise how wrong this was!

 

[Mutant Lemming]

In the old days of Mk I LHCS I used to use First Class toilets as they were more spacious.

I now realise how wrong this was!

Yon hoi polloi should go back to vermin class and poo through a hole in the floor.

 

[Starmill]

I stood in the vestibule at the end of a Voyager recently where First Class is. No issues with the ticket check, there were no seats free and I was the only person stood there, although plenty of other standees in all of the other vestibules. There are no signs that say it is First Class anywhere, and it seems anyone can use that loo, so I don't see what the issue is. The First Class signs are on the doors between that vestibule and the FC saloon. There are none on the doors between that vestibule and the adjoining vestibule of the standard coach, so I don't think there are even grounds for designating it as First.

 

[GatwickDepress]

I would have been really peeved if paying for First Class on a London Midland service last week as I had whole carriages and six seats to myself for both my trips.
What do you get on a First Class London Midland service that would be better than standard class Virgin service?
Similarly travelling on a Transpennine service the other week if it wasn't for the stickers I would have been hard pressed to identify the First class section .

Like other commuter TOCs, the prime advantage of First Class on London Midland is the better chance of getting a seat in a compartment separated from the many, especially during the peak.

London Midland don't need to compete or compare themselves with Virgin Trains as they have their own business traffic.

 

[dk1]

Similarly travelling on a Transpennine service the other week if it wasn't for the stickers I would have been hard pressed to identify the First class section .

Now I know we all see things differently but how on earth can you not know you're in 1st on TPx? I mean seat size & 2+1 for a start.

 

[Jonfun]

I've just checked, and the toilet end vestibule of a Voyager's definitely signed as First Class. But as I say, it's very, very rarely enforced - eg if someone was causing an obstruction.

 

[Flamingo]

Now I know we all see things differently but how on earth can you not know you're in 1st on TPx? I mean seat size & 2+1 for a start.

People claim they don't know they are in First Class on a HST...

 

[TUC]

I've just checked, and the toilet end vestibule of a Voyager's definitely signed as First Class. But as I say, it's very, very rarely enforced - eg if someone was causing an obstruction.

Causing an obstruction in a Voyager's toilet is unfortunately all too common.

 

[Starmill]

I've just checked, and the toilet end vestibule of a Voyager's definitely signed as First Class. But as I say, it's very, very rarely enforced - eg if someone was causing an obstruction.

Where though? The signs are only on the doors between the toilet area and the saloon aren't they? Not the doors to the adjacent coach?

 

[GarethJohn]

Now I know we all see things differently but how on earth can you not know you're in 1st on TPx? I mean seat size & 2+1 for a start.

I wasn't but it looked all the same to me so did the London midland one, it was the stickers on the window that gave it away. I do not have an encyclopedic knowledge of seating arrangements on trains.

 

[Mark62]

The overcrowding in second class I have seen the most is on XC voyagers. I always travel first and I have seen people looking enviously in at the sparsely populated coach. These are mainly young people so they can take it standing up. Won't do them any harm and if they work hard then maybe they will be able to travel first class.

 

[A-driver]

The overcrowding in second class I have seen the most is on XC voyagers. I always travel first and I have seen people looking enviously in at the sparsely populated coach. These are mainly young people so they can take it standing up. Won't do them any harm and if they work hard then maybe they will be able to travel first class.

Lol! Is that last sentence a joke considering that first class train travel is hardly a luxury reserved for the wealthy...half the time you can get a first class ticket for not much more than the price of a standard and often when I travel first class on long distance trains first class is full of young people travelling to/from uni etc on cheap first class tickets...

 

[iainbhx]

I regularly have this conversation:

"You mean I can't stand next to a First Class toilet?"
"No Sir, there are eight Standard Class toilets further down the train you are welcome to stand beside"

I once had a variant of that on a massively loaded TPE Stockport-Sheffield with a full First Class.

"Sorry, Sir, you can't stand in First Class"
"What, not even with a first class ticket?"

To be fair, the chap was very apologetic and it wasn't his fault that Virgin had dumped me at Stockport 35 late causing me to miss the train with my reservation on it.

 

[David Goddard]

We often use First Class between Reading and Paddington, and are happy to pay the extra if it helps us have a seat. What really annoys us is when having passed Ealing Broadway, a swathe of Standard Class passengers start parading through First so that they can be near the buffers when they alight. There is a sign adjacent to the café Bar stating that the area beyond is for First Class passengers only but this is never enforced. I got up to use the toilet shortly before arrival a few weeks ago and could not get out of the toilet, let alone return to my seat, for all of the Standard people standing in the First Class vestibule.

 

[Flamingo]

I once had a variant of that on a massively loaded TPE Stockport-Sheffield with a full First Class.

"Sorry, Sir, you can't stand in First Class"
"What, not even with a first class ticket?"

To be fair, the chap was very apologetic and it wasn't his fault that Virgin had dumped me at Stockport 35 late causing me to miss the train with my reservation on it.

That's why my opening question is either "Are you looking for First or Standard class?", or "Can I see your ticket please?". I make sure of my ground first!
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We often use First Class between Reading and Paddington, and are happy to pay the extra if it helps us have a seat. What really annoys us is when having passed Ealing Broadway, a swathe of Standard Class passengers start parading through First so that they can be near the buffers when they alight. There is a sign adjacent to the café Bar stating that the area beyond is for First Class passengers only but this is never enforced. I got up to use the toilet shortly before arrival a few weeks ago and could not get out of the toilet, let alone return to my seat, for all of the Standard people standing in the First Class vestibule.

Sometimes I try! However enforcement usually is patchy as the TM usually needs to be at the rear on arrival, so there is nobody to enforce it. RPI's don't go on HST's between Reading and London, and it's not a role the Customer Hosts generally do. Plus, the level of abuse that one can get when one is acting as the thin blue line physically stopping passengers walking through can be quite traumatic (I can't think of any other word to describe it).

 

[Starmill]

The overcrowding in second class I have seen the most is on XC voyagers. I always travel first and I have seen people looking enviously in at the sparsely populated coach. These are mainly young people so they can take it standing up. Won't do them any harm and if they work hard then maybe they will be able to travel first class.

You owe me a new laptop!

Your snobbery just made me vomit a bit

 

[40135]

I don't think there should even be 'First Class'.

However, yes, particularly if it creates a hazard, which it certainly has before on certain TPE trains I've been lumbered with.

 

[Flamingo]

I don't have a problem with First Class per se. If people want to spend their money on it for whatever reason, it's their money. That's the way of the world, and if history shows us anything, it's that any attempt to organise redistribution of wealth on a large scale simply results in a different group of have's and have-not's.

 

[broadgage]

Well said Flamingo. An excellent post.

Agree, I cant be bothered to type a long post that says pretty much the same.

 

[GodAtum]

Given that I spend my time kicking people out of First Class who INSIST that Standard Class is full, and I then walk through the train and find anything up to 130 empty seats (last Friday), and quite often these same people are standing in First Class and not making any effort to find a seat anywhere on the train (but still insist that they won't move unless I find them a seat) then I think that this is the greatest load of bollix I can think of, and just pandering to the "victim" culture that is encouraged.

If people want to travel in First Class, pay for it. If people want a turn-up-and-go railway, then one of the down-sides of it is that they may have to look a little bit harder to find a seat. If people want a guaranteed seat, then make a reservation, or get a quieter train, or even walk through the damn train and look for one.

If my trains are crush-loaded then fine, I will declassify First Class. If somebody is at need of a seat (elderly, infirm, ill, pregnant, kids, disabled) I will often sit them in First Class if no other option. The problem with this sort of thing is that these are not going to be the people who will sit in First - it'll be the pushy self-important commuter who runs on-board at the last second and then decides that it's too far to walk down the train to find the empty seats, and think "I'll have a seat here, I'm entitled to it".

To summarise, "If you are on a Standard Class ticket and would like to sit in First Class, you should have worked harder at school and got a better job" (my announcement leaving London on my last day at work).

What TOC do you work for? I find that on SWT the guards can be hit and miss. For example, someone sitting in 1st from Waterloo - Clapham, the guard let him off. But on long distance journeys, for example the 1800 Guildford - Waterloo, the guards kicks 90% of people out from the 1st class section in the 1st coach. A lot of people walk up at Clapham to the front coach, creating a queue in 1st class :cry:

 

[jon0844]

Lol! Is that last sentence a joke considering that first class train travel is hardly a luxury reserved for the wealthy...half the time you can get a first class ticket for not much more than the price of a standard and often when I travel first class on long distance trains first class is full of young people travelling to/from uni etc on cheap first class tickets...

Not on GTR though. When GTR introduces advance tickets, I wonder if they'll make FC on their trains more affordable?

I can bag some great deals on Intercity, but even with my Gold Card it's a huge premium to go into London First Class (we can argue about whether it's worth it another day). The big problem is that a return isn't just 5/10p more as with standard. Oh and the first class supplements are no more, which is even more stupid.

I'm amazed nobody has thought to offer some sort of super-off peak first class tickets, given when I travel off peak on GTR I'd be surprised if there's ever more than 3-4 people in first - and some of those won't even have FC tickets!

 

[Starmill]

Super off-peak First! Some flows only have Anytime First!

 

[jon0844]

When ATOC got rid of the £5 first class supplement (just as some people were starting to understand how to sell them and you could even begin to buy them online) it became obvious that TOCs have no idea how to make extra money, and will gladly let trains run around for many hours a day with virtually nobody in first class, bar those who shouldn't actually be there.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It depends on your perspective. Is it better to have eight people in first class paying a fiver each, or one bloke on his tod who's paid £50 to be there?

 

[TBY-Paul]

It depends on your perspective. Is it better to have eight people in first class paying a fiver each, or one bloke on his tod who's paid £50 to be there?

Surely it would be a Standard price ticket + £5??? Which makes the maths slightly different.

 

[pne]

Surely it would be a Standard price ticket + £5??? Which makes the maths slightly different.

Depends on whether the £50 was the price of the ticket or the price difference between the 1ST ticket he held and the STD one he could have bought instead.

 

[jon0844]

It depends on your perspective. Is it better to have eight people in first class paying a fiver each, or one bloke on his tod who's paid £50 to be there?

I am sure that's how the TOCs have worked it out too.

I don't see the harm in having people who bought their anytime tickets using first class at anytime, and me paying £5 but being restricted to off-peak (and that can include the evening peak).

We don't consider it a problem when Intercity operators have full price and advance fares, so it's not even 'unfair' to have some people on the train that paid less.

As I see it, it's easy money.

 

[trainophile]

I've used TPE 1st Class from Liverpool to Manchester a few times recently, and there is ALWAYS one who sits in 1st with a Standard ticket.

Today was no exception. Despite a lengthy pre-departure speech about the First Class coach being only for First Class ticket holders, and being identifiable by notices at both ends of the compartment, also by the seat backs, a young(ish) woman settled herself down in there, spread her laptop and papers over the table, and became oblivious to all around. She was on board when the announcements were made, but obviously decided they didn't apply to her.

The TM came through checking tickets between South Parkway and Warrington, and told her she shouldn't be in 1st, and she asked where should she go then! :roll: The TM was very patient and directed her towards the rest of the train, but she had already had 20 minutes free 1st travel. Had she got off at South Parkway, no-one would have been any the wiser.

Funnily enough, there was also a young (probably teenage) girl in 1st, but obviously her ticket was valid, whereas the woman who gave the appearance of being a business type was chancing her luck.