Should ScotRail take over operation of the Chieftain and Aberdonian?

[Falcon1200]

LNER shouldn’t run the Aberdonian, as it forms part of the regular interval service between Edinburgh and Aberdeen.

A fair point, but as these are through trains someone has to operate them beyond their 'normal' area, and I would say that doing so between Edinburgh and Aberdeen is considerably simpler and less fraught with potential for disruption that Edinburgh/Kings Cross! However, the suggestion of common Traincrew operating north of Edinburgh does make sense.

 

[Clansman]

This argument of course also works the other way: LNER shouldn’t run the Aberdonian, as it forms part of the regular interval service between Edinburgh and Aberdeen.

I really don't understand this argument, as the railways aren't set up to always be 'rationalised' into groups where no service must cross-over. Otherwise you'd have no direct journeys between countries anywhere in the UK or Europe. It's a strange way to do things when trains are public services and not one that purely exists for operational convenience or efficiency.

 

[Gaelan]

I really don't understand this argument, as the railways aren't set up to always be 'rationalised' into groups where no service must cross-over. Otherwise you'd have no direct journeys between countries anywhere in the UK or Europe. It's a strange way to do things when trains are public services and not one that purely exists for operational convenience or efficiency.

I’m not actually arguing against a through service! I’m just responding to the claim that it has to be operated by LNER (and not ScotRail).

I do still think some sort of joint operation makes the most sense - otherwise one side or the other gets the inevitable awkward service from an operator going far out of their territory.

 

[BayPaul]

Firstly I think through services are a huge appeal to a lot of people. Severing the direct link to highlands would seem like a no no to me.

However this conversation seems like a real consequence of proliferation. Proliferation of companies, of stock types, of staff groups.

Not to be all misty eyed for the past, but there would have been a time when for example an HST could pull into a mainline station and there would be a number of routes operated from that station with staff trained in operating it. And therefore if the initial plan didn’t work, another one could be formed with comparative ease. It seems fairly natural to me for an Inverness based driver to drive a train from Inverness to Edinburgh and the return as the basis of their working day, and the concept of the entire daily Highland mainline service being dependent on one person staying in a hotel does seem rather …. Unusual.

It would seem a good goal to have for the next 20 years of rail (whatever happens organisationally) to put interoperability as a key goal for the industry. For us to stop buying fleets of 20 odd trains, and then scratching our heads with what to do with them in 10 years time, or what to replace them with. Simple products which are rolled out widely and stuck with with repeat orders for 10-20 years, with standard agreements of the sharing of staff and resources which is mutually beneficial (as presumably when LNER does fall over north of Edinburgh for whatever reason, ScotRail gets completely hammered and cannot cope with the demand).

Joe Public has little understanding or care as to who runs the trains, the concept of “brands” - particularly a series of which seem generally quite rubbish - mean little - they do not understand why when A liveried train isn’t functioning, the owner of B liveried train cannot step in to get them where they need to be.

Interoperability. That would be a great thing to aspire towards.

I kind of agree with your point, but there are in fact a lot more 80x trains than there ever were HSTs, so for long distance stock there is no physical reason why things shouldn't be as good as they were... If only it wasn't for the Agility trains contract. It's one reason I'd love to see XC getting 80x trains as well.

 

[Topological]

I kind of agree with your point, but there are in fact a lot more 80x trains than there ever were HSTs, so for long distance stock there is no physical reason why things shouldn't be as good as they were... If only it wasn't for the Agility trains contract. It's one reason I'd love to see XC getting 80x trains as well.

CrossCountry, Scotrail and more for GWR TPE and LNER really.

Ideally, Hitachi would be able to supply a battery option to at least reduce the use of diesel. Whether that can be achieved as a power pack approach to allow Scotrail to bring in batteries later I do not know.

IF Scotrail drivers were only taking 80x between Inverness/Aberdeen and Edinburgh then interoperability with LNER would be much better.

 

[snookertam]

Isn’t part of the problem here that it is Newcastle based crews that work upto Aberdeen and Inverness, which means the ability to restart any of these services northbound from Edinburgh is severely limited if possible at all? Maybe if, as suggested, Scotgov pay LNER to continue these services but have them crewed locally, either by LNER Edinburgh based crews, or by an arrangement with ScotRail, might help.

ScotRail operating south of the border is a non starter and absolutely wouldn’t work, certainly not without some sort of local arrangement with another TOC south of the border (ie TPE). If such a thing became a reality, perhaps a similar arrangement could be in place for the TPE cross border services too, but we’d be creating a whole new Cross border operation in the process.

 

[Clansman]

ScotRail operating south of the border is a non starter and absolutely wouldn’t work

How so?

certainly not without some sort of local arrangement with another TOC south of the border (ie TPE).

Or just recruit locally from those areas instead, rather than assuming Scotland based staff have to work a ScotRail branded service?

 

[A S Leib]

How does cooperation between Translink and IÉ on the Enterprise work?

 

[D6130]

How does cooperation between Translink and IÉ on the Enterprise work?

Dublin (IE) crews work Dublin to Belfast and back in a shift....and Belfast (NIR) crews work Belfast to Dublin and back in a shift.

 

[Falcon1200]

ScotRail operating south of the border is a non starter and absolutely wouldn’t work

Scotrail did run south of the border for many years when they operated the Caledonian Sleeper service, but south of Carlisle it could be extremely difficult for them to deal with any disruption. therefore such an arrangement is far from ideal.

 

[reb0118]

I think we need to separate the "train" & the "crew". A through train does not necessarily mean a through crew - with the exception of the non safety critical catering & hospitality crew.

Then we have the branding: some trains can be branded as ScotRail and others as LNER. This will be done on the basis of reciprocality - e.g. LNER run a ½ hourly service from London to Edinburgh. Roughly ⅛ of the route is in Scotland. So roughly ⅛ of the services could be branded as ScotRail. OR, the through services from beyond Edinburgh (as well as a few shorter workings to/from Newcastle to northern Scotland) could be branded as ScotRail.

Operationally it would make no difference with regards to crewing as the train would be basically be the same - only with different branding.

ScotRail would take over the Scottish based LNER depots and merge them into a new InterCity Link primarily based at Edinburgh with a smaller link at Inverness. The overlap would be from Edinburgh to Newcastle with either crews rostered over that section.

An additional Inverness via the Highland Main Line and extending two of the Aberdeens to Inverness via Keith would dramatically improve the through service from the North of Scotland to England (not necessarily all the way to London).

The ScotRail branded Anglo - Scottish services beyond Newcastle to offer full restaurant services serving Scottish fayre, with at least one of those to be of Pullman quality.