Should smaller, local bus companies operate in cities?

[YorkRailFan]

Following a discussion in the City Transport Group thread, I thought it would be good to have a separate thread about whether or not local, smaller bus companies should operate city bus services.

My thoughts are that smaller, local bus companies should be allowed to operate into cities from rural towns and villages, as these bud companies can provide vital bus services for these communities. But, I think that It would be easier for travelers and tourists if one brand is used that has integrated services, journey planner, booking as well as drivers and vehicles, as this is easier for passengers and logistically for the bus company and even local Council.

 

[JKP]

Any bus company regardless of size can register a local bus service as a commercial venture or tender for a Council contract.

York has had a number of small operators providing services over the years, the largest probably being York Pullman, operating from Exhibition Square and Piccadilly. Other operators also ran south east from the city leaving from Piccadilly.

Safeguard in Guildford run city services alongside Stagecoach. Edinburgh Coachlines run service 13 in that city. Prentice of Haddington run a number of routes serving a large shopping centre and the main hospital in the east of Edinburgh from East Lothian. There are countless other examples.

 

[YorkRailFan]

York has had a number of small operators providing services over the years, the largest probably being York Pullman, operating from Exhibition Square and Piccadilly. Other operators also ran south east from the city leaving from Piccadilly.

York Pullman and Reliance, but both operate services from the City to Towns and villages with no other connection to York (apart from Thirsk and Bishopthorpe).

 

[GusB]

There's no reason why smaller operators shouldn't run services in large towns and cities. While they may not be able to provide the same network of routes as larger operators, this needn't be a problem if there is a multi-operator ticketing scheme in place. Besides, some people may only ever use one route to go shopping, get to work/school etc., so they don't need the benefit of a wider network.

Let's not forget that smaller operators often pick up tendered routes that the bigger companies deemed to be commercially unviable, so they can serve a useful purpose.

Small operator does not necessarily equate to poor operator.

 

[YorkRailFan]

There's no reason why smaller operators shouldn't run services in large towns and cities. While they may not be able to provide the same network of routes as larger operators, this needn't be a problem if there is a multi-operator ticketing scheme in place. Besides, some people may only ever use one route to go shopping, get to work/school etc., so they don't need the benefit of a wider network.

Let's not forget that smaller operators often pick up tendered routes that the bigger companies deemed to be commercially unviable, so they can serve a useful purpose.

Small operator does not necessarily equate to poor operator.

Of course, small bus operators can provide vital services, not just for towns and villages, but also in cities with vital routes that larger bus companies wouldn't take up.

 

[mattb7tl]

They already do operate in cities but they will never have the chance to run a core bus route.
Small companies get the scraps that the large companies ran into the ground. Surviving on razer thin profits that barely pay enough to cover vehicle costs and wages.
It pretty much explains why competition is a straight up myth in the private world.

 

[JonathanH]

Operators know that competition on a lucrative route will result in the bigger operator cutting fares and essentially forcing the smaller operator off the route.

Clearly smaller operators can go after less lucrative routes if they wish, but are going to find it difficult to make money.

 

[WM Bus]

Birmingham has Kevs Coaches that still run some local tendered routes including route 10 into Birmingham City Centre.

One of a few of small operators surviving in the West Midlands.

 

[MotCO]

There are obviously a number of fixed costs incurred by an operator before they can run a contracted service. For example, they may have to invest in a compliance officer, computer systems, radio systems etc, and for a larger operator, these costs can be defrayed over more routes, whereas for a smaller operator, all the costs may fall on a single route. Also a smaller operator may not be able to take advantage of discounts on fuel, tyres, insurance etc which a larger operator can.

 

[daodao]

There's no reason why smaller operators shouldn't run services in large towns and cities.

Several large cities have now implemented or are in the process of implementing franchising of bus services. Smaller operators on their own accord can't just choose to operate services in these places.

 

[GusB]

Several large cities have now or are in the process of implementing franchising of bus services. Smaller operators on their own accord can't just choose to operate services in these places.

That all depends on how routes are franchised out. Franchising could be structured in a way that would allow smaller operators to take part in the process.

They can still play a part in areas where there is no franchising and I see no reason to prevent them from doing so. As I said earlier, small does not necessarily equate to poor.

 

[MotCO]

Smaller operators on their own accord can't just choose to operate services in these places.

To counter that, an example from around 40-50 years ago. Orpington & District / Tillingbourne / Metrobus spotted a gap in the London market, and provided services from Croydon to Orpington and Bromley. In the early days it was an outfit with around half a dozen buses.

 

[GCH100]

Yes and No, depending on the state and quality of the operator, You would not want another UK North? But yet you might want another Jim Stones? How you would Police that is by a quality benchmark in the tendering process, which I assume is something Vision Bus has met with TfGM, being so far the only independant operator selected for Franchising in Greater Manchester.

 

[renegademaster]

What kind of red tape do they have to go through and is any of that unessecary stuff that wouldn't be noticed if it was cut?

 

[GusB]

Yes and No, depending on the state and quality of the operator, You would not want another UK North? But yet you might want another Jim Stones? How you would Police that is by a quality benchmark in the tendering process, which I assume is something Vision Bus has met with TfGM, being so far the only independant operator selected for Franchising in Greater Manchester.

You're going to have to explain "Jim Stones". Not everyone is going to know what you mean.

 

[GCH100]

Jim Stones Coaches, was an independent operator with a smart fleet of buses with Private Registrations, that operated buses in the Leigh Area of Greater Manchester between 26th October 1986 and June 2020.

 

[johncrossley]

That all depends on how routes are franchised out. Franchising could be structured in a way that would allow smaller operators to take part in the process.

TfGM tendered out some small packages of routes specifically to enable smaller operators to take part but so far the big boys have won everything in the first two tranches with one tranche to go.

 

[YorkRailFan]

They already do operate in cities but they will never have the chance to run a core bus route.
Small companies get the scraps that the large companies ran into the ground. Surviving on razer thin profits that barely pay enough to cover vehicle costs and wages.
It pretty much explains why competition is a straight up myth in the private world.

That and sometimes, if they're lucky, local subsidies.

 

[Deerfold]

Operators know that competition on a lucrative route will result in the bigger operator cutting fares and essentially forcing the smaller operator off the route.

Clearly smaller operators can go after less lucrative routes if they wish, but are going to find it difficult to make money.

Walsh in Halifax ran frequent services between Halifax and Sowerby/Elland/Ovenden/Illingworth along First's most lucrative routes (Elland being on the route to Huddersfield) for a couple of decades.

Meanwhile HJC ran on many of their smaller routes, and after tussles with stupidly high frequencies on many of them, they ended up as the main operator on half a dozen of them until the owner sold to Centrebus Holdings due to ill health. Their successor still operates them.

 

[Flange Squeal]

In my opinion, they absolutely should and I was surprised by the original suggestion they shouldn’t in the other thread.

The chances are that any routes that small independents are operating in many cities/built-up urban areas otherwise served by larger group operators are council tendered operations that are not deemed commercially viable by said bigger operators. As a result, with many contracts being awarded primarily based on price, the smaller operator presumably won it on account of being able to do so using less of the public’s money than the bigger operator. I agree this can sometimes be annoying if your journey requires a connection onto another route in the town/city, for example independent takes you into town but you have to change into the big operator to reach the hospital or wherever so can’t take advantage of a day ticket, but this could be sorted if the local authority could organise a multi operator ticket. I think the days of the ropey independent running rustbuckets against larger operators are few and far between these days, although there of course still some examples of independent operating commercially alongside larger operators’ routes.

 

[YorkRailFan]

In my opinion, they absolutely should and I was surprised by the original suggestion they shouldn’t in the other thread.

The chances are that any routes that small independents are operating in many cities/built-up urban areas otherwise served by larger group operators are council tendered operations that are not deemed commercially viable by said bigger operators. As a result, with many contracts being awarded primarily based on price, the smaller operator presumably won it on account of being able to do so using less of the public’s money than the bigger operator. I agree this can sometimes be annoying if your journey requires a connection onto another route in the town/city, for example independent takes you into town but you have to change into the big operator to reach the hospital or wherever so can’t take advantage of a day ticket, but this could be sorted if the local authority could organise a multi operator ticket. I think the days of the ropey independent running rustbuckets against larger operators are few and far between these days, although there of course still some examples of independent operating commercially alongside larger operators’ routes.

I fully agree, an integrated system is so much easier for passengers and local bus companies operate routes that bigger companies wouldn't.

 

[pm2304877]

Small operators could run on niche routes regulated and if necessary could be cross subsidized. But remember, in urban areas is an issue. Insurance costs are higher and secure land is essential.
If one expands one needs more land. Small operators have been plagued by anti-social behaviour and it's a brave small timer that would take this on. As I have said elsewhere, the small operators don't pay the required wages and drivers vote with their feet.

The pool of redundant buses and drivers which were a foundation for the post 1986 industry have been scrapped or in the case of drivers have retired or died.

Large cities need large firms. A fragmented cluster of small timers won't last. On Merseyside small operators had a lifespan of 5-6 years before having to sell up or in some cases go under. Those that lasted do subsidy work and are REGULATED.

 

[GusB]

Small operators could run on niche routes regulated and if necessary could be cross subsidized. But remember, in urban areas is an issue. Insurance costs are higher and secure land is essential.

Do you have evidence about insurance costs? Let's see your figures, please.

If one expands one needs more land. Small operators have been plagued by anti-social behaviour and it's a brave small timer that would take this on.

Obtaining land for expansion may not be that that difficult. Obviously it depends on the individual location as to how costly it would be, but it's not an insurmountable problem. Anti-social behaviour is also not a problem that is faced exclusively by small operators.

As I have said elsewhere, the small operators don't pay the required wages and drivers vote with their feet.

Have you surveyed every small operator and compared the wages they pay against those paid by larger operators? Please show us the results of your extensive research.

The pool of redundant buses and drivers which were a foundation for the post 1986 industry have been scrapped or in the case of drivers have retired or died.

Larger operators still cascade and sell vehicles off from time to time. Many of those vehicles will have been well maintained throughout their lives and will go on to provide further service. I'll cite Lothian Buses as an example of a company whose vehicles are regularly sold on and then snapped up by independents. You're also making the assumption that smaller firms only buy second-hand when this is certainly not the case.

As for drivers, while there is a general shortage in the industry, I know of a few cases where people have joined smaller companies as they reached retirement age because the shifts were less demanding and more predictable than with the larger companies. I know of one particular gentleman who came out of retirement to work part-time because retirement (or rather, his missus) was driving him barmy.

Large cities need large firms. A fragmented cluster of small timers won't last. On Merseyside small operators had a lifespan of 5-6 years before having to sell up or in some cases go under. Those that lasted do subsidy work and are REGULATED.

I think this is simply prejudice against small operators on your part. I'm not going to disagree that there have been "cowboy" (for want of a better word) operations over the years, but don't you think it's a little bit unfair to tar every single one with the same brush?

You mention Merseyside in particular; have you visited other urban areas and drawn similar conclusions there?

 

[WAB]

I'm happy with smaller firms provided that they are integrated into real time departure boards and alteration messaging, have their timetables posted at stops by the local authority, are included in all bus maps produced for the area, and are included in a reasonably-priced multi-operator ticketing scheme.

 

[pm2304877]

I cannot give Individual breakdowns of insurance costs for every operator all I can do is rely on media. If a small operator wants to set up they have to have SECURE PREMISES. That is a given fact surely?
I did say there is room for a small operator to do niche routes but the era of insane competition is overfor reasons I outlined.

I cannot physically cover the whole UK in detail.,nor can any enthusiast onlmy own patch as it were.

Recently Peoplesbus have sold out to Stagecoach. HTL have vandalism issues. If a small firm has buses put out of action. it's not a sustainable situation. Avon Buses on the Wirral closed because they couldn't retain staff among other issues. Jason Yobbo and his mates are not going to refrain from lobbing bricks just because the bus is run by a small timer.

HTL has had to install software to warn against fraudulent whiplash claims Not free of charge. and another issue small firms have to face.

An enthusiast cannot provide the degree of Information as the likes of routeone or Bus and Coach Professional. And finally I think it's ridiculous to expect complicated links such as "www/// etc" to be provided.

 

[GusB]

I cannot give Individual breakdowns of insurance costs for every operator all I can do is rely on media. If a small operator wants to set up they have to have SECURE PREMISES. That is a given fact surely?

So you have no idea how much it costs. Perhaps you should do some research before making silly assumptions.

I did say there is room for a small operator to do niche routes but the era of insane competition is overfor reasons I outlined.

The reason that this thread exists is because you, in your infinite wisdom, determined that small operators had no place within urban areas. Are you now back-tracking?

I cannot physically cover the whole UK in detail.,nor can any enthusiast onlmy own patch as it were.

Please do not make sweeping statements if you don't have any idea how things work outwith your own small area.

Recently Peoplesbus have sold out to Stagecoach. HTL have vandalism issues. If a small firm has buses put out of action. it's not a sustainable situation. Avon Buses on the Wirral closed because they couldn't retain staff among other issues. Jason Yobbo and his mates are not going to refrain from lobbing bricks just because the bus is run by a small timer.

Small firms can replace windows just as quickly as large ones as long as they have a service agreement.

HTL has had to install software to warn against fraudulent whiplash claims Not free of charge. and another issue small firms have to face.

Who or what is HTL? Forum rules require that you define such jargon in your posts. Where is the evidence to back up your claims?

An enthusiast cannot provide the degree of Information as the likes of routeone or Bus and Coach Professional. And finally I think it's ridiculous to expect complicated links such as "www/// etc" to be provided.

Enthusiasts can and do provide relevant sources to back up their claims. It happens on a daily basis in the Buses & Coaches section of the forum. If you're unwilling to back up your own silly assertions, please do not be surprised when people disagree with what you say.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I cannot give Individual breakdowns of insurance costs for every operator all I can do is rely on media. If a small operator wants to set up they have to have SECURE PREMISES. That is a given fact surely?
I did say there is room for a small operator to do niche routes but the era of insane competition is overfor reasons I outlined.

I cannot physically cover the whole UK in detail.,nor can any enthusiast onlmy own patch as it were.

Recently Peoplesbus have sold out to Stagecoach. HTL have vandalism issues. If a small firm has buses put out of action. it's not a sustainable situation. Avon Buses on the Wirral closed because they couldn't retain staff among other issues. Jason Yobbo and his mates are not going to refrain from lobbing bricks just because the bus is run by a small timer.

HTL has had to install software to warn against fraudulent whiplash claims Not free of charge. and another issue small firms have to face.

An enthusiast cannot provide the degree of Information as the likes of routeone or Bus and Coach Professional. And finally I think it's ridiculous to expect complicated links such as "www/// etc" to be provided.

This is, I'm afraid, utter bilge.

Smaller operators perform an essential role in the UK bus industry...as they always have done. As in regulated days, there were great tracts of the country that were left to smaller firms whose overheads were lower and so could run profitably. In fact, in the early 1970s, a number of National Bus Companies withdrew from areas such as North Cornwall, South Staffs and West Wales, and it was left to smaller firms to fill the void. However, there were still a number of long-established independents even in metropolitan areas despite avowed policies by West Yorkshire and South Yorkshire PTEs to buy them up. Post 1986, there were a great many who entered the local bus market whilst traditional businesses changed and developed. Some over extended themselves, some didn't. Some sold out. That is what happens in business; the only problem at the moment is that it is so challenging that, aside from firms like Vectare, it's not the most attractive industry to get involved with. However, small firms perform a vital role in the bus industry ecosystem, and especially in recent years as large operators have retrenched and cut operations.

As regards, the other comments, site security is required for every operator, irrespective of size. In the past, many a large operator would have vehicles simply parked up in a public car park as an outbase. More recently, the typical big operator outstation has been a secure compound (no different to a small operator) whilst depots have moved from being large buildings (with high business rates and utilities costs) to modern, smaller workshops with extensive open parking. Don't think that large operators don't have issues with anti-social behaviour both on buses, en route and at their premises.

First Eastern Counties closed their outstations following an arson attack at Stalham. Stagecoach had many vehicles damaged after a Christmas Day attack resulted in vehicles being written off. Arriva's predecessor in Darlington had a similar attack after kids broke into the depot by hiding and waiting for the staff to leave, and then started playing dodgems. Operators have lost vehicles due to fires being started onboard - First Glasgow has had a number including a virtually new decker written off, and First Bradford has had a similar event the other week.

Avon Buses closed down for a number of reasons. Insurance and fuel costs, and abuse of the MyTicket scheme basically meant they weren't recovering their costs - all detailed here https://www.route-one.net/news/avon..., Wirral-based Avon Buses,the loss of 30 jobs.

As regards HTL (the name of a Merseyside operator @GusB ), that they have had to get software to guard against whiplash claims. Well, that's what most operators have had to do in order to deal with fraudulent insurance claims so it's a cost for any operator. There were some famous instances with Arriva where folks tried the no win, no fee path to untold riches.

It seems that you've a hang up on small operators but without them, many routes would be lost.

 

[34D]

By this logic the few bits that Stagecoach operate into Edinburgh wouldn't be allowed; or would you ban Lothian and just keep the bits operated by the big groups?

There are always going to be places where more than one network interfaces with another.

It's like saying that Hull Trains shouldn't be allowed to operate into Hull or into London. Or saying that the once a day LNER train to Bradford ought to be cancelled to let Northern be sole operator.

 

[The exile]

I'm happy with smaller firms provided that they are integrated into real time departure boards and alteration messaging, have their timetables posted at stops by the local authority, are included in all bus maps produced for the area, and are included in a reasonably-priced multi-operator ticketing scheme.

Precisely. The most biggest priority for public transport is that it is all one integrated and coordinated network - in terms of timetabling, ticketing and service standards. Who operates any individual bit of it is of secondary importance.

 

[YorkRailFan]

By this logic the few bits that Stagecoach operate into Edinburgh wouldn't be allowed; or would you ban Lothian and just keep the bits operated by the big groups?

There are always going to be places where more than one network interfaces with another.

It's like saying that Hull Trains shouldn't be allowed to operate into Hull or into London. Or saying that the once a day LNER train to Bradford ought to be cancelled to let Northern be sole operator.

Interesting point, I do agree with you. Of course I wouldn't ban Lothian in Edinburgh.