Should Thameslink appear on the Tube map? (Now expected to appear in December on Tube map)

[ainsworth74]

Thameslink only accepts LUL tickets between Kentish Town and Elephant and castle /London Bridge .

I'm not sure showing Thameslink on the Tube map beyond those stations would be necessary or desirable anyway?

 

[Hadders]

I'm not sure showing Thameslink on the Tube map beyond those stations would be necessary or desirable anyway?

You'd need to show it to Finsbury Park these days.

 

[kristiang85]

I don't agree with those saying that paper maps should be abolished and people just use their phones. I can see where I need to go within seconds of looking at a well structured Tube map (whether here or in other countries). Going online means getting your phone out, finding the app (or website, and TFL'S is infuriating), inputting the origin and destination and time, and then scroll through the results to work out your route. Not to mention foreigners might not have network access anyway, and WiFi can be patchy (and take an age to connect to, adding yet more time to the online option).

So I'm very much of the opinion all options - including Thameslink - should be on the paper map. However, I do agree it would get very crowded - so maybe the time has come to totally restructure the London transport map, away from the familiar diagram we have now. Someone famously did a mock up a few years ago and I thought it looked brilliant.

 

[Peter C]

I don't agree with those saying that paper maps should be abolished and people just use their phones. I can see where I need to go within seconds of looking at a well structured Tube map (whether here or in other countries). Going online means getting your phone out, finding the app (or website, and TFL'S is infuriating), inputting the origin and destination and time, and then scroll through the results to work out your route. Not to mention foreigners might not have network access anyway, and WiFi can be patchy (and take an age to connect to, adding yet more time to the online option).

So I'm very much of the opinion all options - including Thameslink - should be on the paper map. However, I do agree it would get very crowded - so maybe the time has come to totally restructure the London transport map, away from the familiar diagram we have now. Someone famously did a mock up a few years ago and I thought it looked brilliant.

I completely forgot I started this thread until people started responding to it again and I don't understand a word of what's been said re:fares and whatnot but I do understand and agree completely with what you've said. In my experience, trying to use a phone for quick information can take a while and if I'm in London I'll probably have a Tube Map on me, meaning I'll go for that quicker option.
The Tube Map is very crowded indeed, especially in the east, mainly around Stratford. Having more and more lines put onto the Map would make the centre more crowded - so maybe we need a new diagram. The current Tube Map style was made by Harry Beck in the 1930s (IIRC about the date) and it's been added to more and more ever since without any significant changes to scaling.
In an ideal world, every option of rail transport in London would appear on the Tube Map to aid everyone getting from everywhere to everywhere else - but unless we increase the size of the map and/or have a major re-design soon I doubt that will happen.

-Peter

 

[ainsworth74]

You'd need to show it to Finsbury Park these days.

Yes that's a fair comment!

 

[ijmad]

There are plenty of third party tube maps that are clearer with some innovative ideas on them. Unfortunately TfL seem to suffer from a 'not invented here' syndrome around their map and don't seem to want to do a large scale redesign even though their current 'house style' dates from the 1980s when there were around half the number of stations on the map as today.

 

[ijmad]

Yes that's a fair comment!

I think it would be good to show West Hampstead as that's becoming an important interchange.

You could also argue for Denmark Hill & Peckham Rye for the Overground connection, they both get a 4tph all day service (which used to be considered the minimum 'useful' service by TfL, although that rule has some exceptions these days).

 

[MotCO]

I assume that the Elizabeth Line would be shown on Tube maps since it will be TfL-run. It is illogical to include Crossrail but not Thameslink on thesame map.

I also believe that maps should be available in paper form. If you want to see the whole map of London easily, a mobile phone is not the best medium to use.

 

[si404]

That's what used to happen though with the the tube map so you had the Northern City line the North London line, Thameslink on the tube map, because London Underground tickets were accepted on them

So the tube map used to include Marylebone - Amersham? I don't think so! The Northern City, Thameslink, North London, Thameslink and Waterloo & City line (pre-94) were on the tube map for more than just ticketing acceptance.

The LU fare scale as criteria for appearance is a dumb idea - especially now - even if it had been done in the past (which it hasn't). A tube map that includes Sudbury & Harrow Road, but excludes Hackney Downs and Ilford, is not a sensible map. Just as the current map only including TfL services is arbitrary, this is as bad - if not worse - in the what's included and what's excluded stakes.

 

[si404]

I assume that the Elizabeth Line would be shown on Tube maps since it will be TfL-run. It is illogical to include Crossrail but not Thameslink on thesame map.

why? "These are the services we run" is a perfectly logical criteria for inclusion and is used on other rail maps without people moaning.

Given pretty much every station has the full network map (as well as the TfL-only network map) on platforms, the TfL website defaults to the "London's Rail & Tube Services" map, etc there's really not a huge problem - its just those using the small paper maps. I'm struggling to remember the last time I saw someone looking at one of those who wouldn't know about the existence of Thameslink - everyone I see journey planning look at platform maps or phones.

 

[MotCO]

why? "These are the services we run" is a perfectly logical criteria for inclusion and is used on other rail maps without people moaning.

Given pretty much every station has the full network map (as well as the TfL-only network map) on platforms, the TfL website defaults to the "London's Rail & Tube Services" map, etc there's really not a huge problem - its just those using the small paper maps. I'm struggling to remember the last time I saw someone looking at one of those who wouldn't know about the existence of Thameslink - everyone I see journey planning look at platform maps or phones.

But I look at it from a user's perspective, particularly someone not from London, or even this country. A map showing all the options before travel is preferable to pitching up at a station with no idea as to how to make a journey, or whether there is a better alternative.

 

[si404]

But I look at it from a user's perspective, particularly someone not from London, or even this country. A map showing all the options before travel is preferable to pitching up at a station with no idea as to how to make a journey, or whether there is a better alternative.

and if you look online to plan before your journey, the default map is the one with all the lines on, so I'm not sure what your gripe is. From a user's perspective there's no problem.

And even if you rock up at the station with no idea, they also have that all rail map as well as the basic TfL map. In fact when they stopped making the vinyl tube maps and replaced them with history boards, some stopped having the TfL map.

 

[rebmcr]

When someone's plans change mid-journey, the maps inside carriages would certainly do well to show viable reroutes via Thameslink.

 

[si404]

When someone's plans change mid-journey, the maps inside carriages would certainly do well to show viable reroutes via Thameslink.

Sure, but why just Thameslink? Surely all potential alternatives would be useful?

Travelling to Wimbledon, Richmond or Upminster when the District line packs up? You'll want to know about the NR lines that go to those stations.

There's not really anything inherent about Thameslink that doesn't apply to many other lines.

 

[matt_world2004]

So the tube map used to include Marylebone - Amersham? I don't think so! The Northern City, Thameslink, North London, Thameslink and Waterloo & City line (pre-94) were on the tube map for more than just ticketing acceptance.

The LU fare scale as criteria for appearance is a dumb idea - especially now - even if it had been done in the past (which it hasn't). A tube map that includes Sudbury & Harrow Road, but excludes Hackney Downs and Ilford, is not a sensible map. Just as the current map only including TfL services is arbitrary, this is as bad - if not worse - in the what's included and what's excluded stakes.

It didn't include Marylebone to Amersham because that was basically paralleled by baker Street to Amersham , same reason it didn't include fenchurch street to upminster.

 

[si404]

It didn't include Marylebone to Amersham because that was basically paralleled by baker Street to Amersham , same reason it didn't include fenchurch street to upminster.

Arguably that's a superior reason to include it, for the disruption reasons above. But sure I'll take that - but how do you account for Marylebone - West Ruislip not being on the map? Or, given the North London Line was on, the lack of the other Silverlink routes?

Ticketing was NOT the reason for inclusion of NR lines on the Tube Map.

 

[rebmcr]

There's not really anything inherent about Thameslink that doesn't apply to many other lines.

The one unique aspect of Thameslink compared to other NR lines is the intra-Z1 routes possible via it. Perhaps there's a marginal case for Charing Cross and Cannon Street to London Bridge to be similarly included, but they're short hops compared to the full cross-Circle scope.

I agree if Great Northern's link to major Z2 interchange Finsbury Park is included, then Clapham Junction at the very least should receive similar treatment.

 

[MikeWh]

Perhaps there's a marginal case for Charing Cross and Cannon Street to London Bridge to be similarly included, but they're short hops compared to the full cross-Circle scope.

Charing Cross to London Bridge is further than Blackfriars to Farringdon. And it's a link between the two sides of the Northern line

 

[rebmcr]

Charing Cross to London Bridge is further than Blackfriars to Farringdon. And it's a link between the two sides of the Northern line

And cross-river too. Seems like it does have a good reason.

 

[ijmad]

Charing Cross to London Bridge is further than Blackfriars to Farringdon. And it's a link between the two sides of the Northern line

During the peaks it's a higher frequency service than the Thameslink core too!

Still, not a great link between the two sides of the Northern line - the interchange walk at the London Bridge end is more than 10 minutes, and not much better on the CX end.

 

[Mikey C]

But I look at it from a user's perspective, particularly someone not from London, or even this country. A map showing all the options before travel is preferable to pitching up at a station with no idea as to how to make a journey, or whether there is a better alternative.

Exactly. Guidebooks etc generally show the "Tube" map not the "all stations" map. Indeed the "visit London" website has a link to the Tube Map, not the all stations one

Free London travel maps

Get around London with these free PDF maps of the Tube, London Overground, bus and river services, Docklands Light Railway, and cycling routes.

www.visitlondon.com

Sure, but why just Thameslink? Surely all potential alternatives would be useful?

Travelling to Wimbledon, Richmond or Upminster when the District line packs up? You'll want to know about the NR lines that go to those stations.

There's not really anything inherent about Thameslink that doesn't apply to many other lines.

But hardly any visitors to London would need to use those routes, whereas a fast and comfortable (when compared to the Northern Line anyway!) link between St Pancras, Blackfriars and London Bridge is REALLY useful.

 

[si404]

Exactly. Guidebooks etc generally show the "Tube" map not the "all stations" map. Indeed the "visit London" website has a link to the Tube Map, not the all stations one

Free London travel maps

Get around London with these free PDF maps of the Tube, London Overground, bus and river services, Docklands Light Railway, and cycling routes.

www.visitlondon.com

So because other websites (not TfL's) being bad at the job they set out to do, TfL have to change the tube map?

But hardly any visitors to London would need to use those routes

I imagine an awful lot would use SWT via Richmond/Wimbledon - Hampton Court and Windsor are very popular tourist destinations. If we're making the Tube Map all about visitors, we'd want these and forget stuff like most of the extremities of the tube network.

And surely, because of these tourist destinations, any guide book worthy of the name would have the rail-and-tube map in. The tourist problem isn't a problem - it's the crappy guide book problem. And most of those make terrible knock off tube maps anyway, so putting Thameslink on the real map won't change that at all - because there's no reason why they couldn't already include it, nor why they would actually do so in the future.

And, tbh, similar applies to the GLA's argument about people needing to know about it as it's step free - TfL aren't shy about it's existence and one can easily find out about it from them - they just don't run it so it won't appear on the map of their services.

whereas a fast and comfortable (when compared to the Northern Line anyway!) link between St Pancras, Blackfriars and London Bridge is REALLY useful.

Comfortable, sure, but you are overstating Thameslink's speed and understating the Northern line's!

Northern line from KXSP to London Bridge is 10 minutes, and Elephant 14 minutes. Thameslink is 14 minutes and 12 minutes respectively. Sure, Elephant has Thameslink win (which makes sense as it's a more direct route with only 3 intermediate stops vs 6 on the Northern line which bows out via Bank) but you need to be lucky for it to get you there quicker due to being much less frequent than the Northern line. Even accounting for walking through KXSP it's probably six of one and half-a-dozen of the other as to which is the least time.

You aren't the only one to misjudge the speed - upthread someone talked about how they gave an American Tourist the 'advice' to use Thameslink because walking to a tube station (Kilburn) that's visible from the start station (Brondesbury), making a cross-platform change at Finchley Road, and emerging at St Pancras right by your destination (Eurostar) is nightmarish and slow compared to using less frequent trains, changing at the OSI at West Hampstead and then walking through St Pancras' shopping centre. Plus - even with the walk to Kilburn (which TfL gave a generous 6 minutes for), the journey times I found for tomorrow daytime were 26 minutes on the tube and 28 Overground-Thameslink - it's basically margin of error differences, but with Thameslink being the one that's a tiny bit slower.

I really don't know what makes time feel like it's flying on Thameslink, but it's not some speedy modern line whizzing you across the centre quickly! It's not - unlike the frequent allusions in this thread to it - a Crossrail (ie a Regional Express Railway). It's an SSL - super-slow-line! :P It's like the Met - nice and fast through the inner suburbs due to not stopping and then crawls through Central London.

Sure, Blackfriars/City Thameslink/examples where the tube journey requires a change give lots of useful journeys for Thameslink. But it's not as useful as you think - that's my point here.

 

[rebmcr]

@si404 What is the Tube Map for?

 

[MikeWh]

@si404 What is the Tube Map for?

I guess that is the million dollar question. The title "tube map" suggests that it ought to be a map of the London Underground. That is now so far from reality that it really ought to be renamed the "TfL rail services map". If that was the case then most of this thread would be redundant.

 

[Mikey C]

I guess that is the million dollar question. The title "tube map" suggests that it ought to be a map of the London Underground. That is now so far from reality that it really ought to be renamed the "TfL rail services map". If that was the case then most of this thread would be redundant.

But TfL aren't a private company. I wouldn't expect Megabus to have National Express services on its route maps, but TfL is a local government body, who should be producing literature to benefit Londoners and visitors, not just promote its services...

 

[si404]

@si404 What is the Tube Map for?

Showing what services TfL run.

If you are going to put Thameslink on it, but not other useful NR lines, then what is it for? It needs to either be comprehensive, or deliberately and explicitly limited - it's currently the latter (arguably not limited enough, with the Orange Octopus, Teal Tangle, #PurpleTrain and Tramlink on there while remaining called "Tube Map"), and another, comprehensive, map is also made, displayed at all stations and appears on the website as the default map.

We don't have a thread with "should the GWR Map (have to click through for the pdf) show the (for example) Cardiff-Gloucester line?", etc because people manage to grasp that operator maps are operator maps. Except for with the Tube Map.

TfL is a local government body, who should be producing literature to benefit Londoners and visitors, not just promote its services...

But it does do that! It even defaults to that map on its website.

 

[rebmcr]

We don't have a thread with "should the GWR Map (have to click through for the pdf) show the (for example) Cardiff-Gloucester line?", etc because people manage to grasp that operator maps are operator maps. Except for with the Tube Map.

I've seen quite a lot of ToC maps showing select key routes (sometimes even road routes) that connect their stations but are operated by others. Never comprehensive, but useful nontheless.

@si404 What is the Tube Map for?

Showing what services TfL run.

But that's not backed-up by any reference to its actual stated purpose (which I would love to find out about, if it exists).

 

[leytongabriel]

Wondering if the current Central Gov financial aid to TfL which does seem to come with demands to do certain things, includes anything of maps and fare anomalies.
Re the £1.50 off-peak fare on some Overground routes but not others, isn't it about protecting Greater Anglia fares?

 

[Mojo]

London Travelwatch have today issued a statement advising that they have persuaded TfL to put TLRailUK services on the next print of the Tube map. Not clear from the statement which stations will be included.

 

[Railguy1]

Wow! I wonder when the next print will be? Maybe December?