• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Should the Atherton line be converted to become part of Metrolink?

Status
Not open for further replies.

tbtc

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Dec 2008
Messages
17,889
Location
Reston City Centre
I think that Light Rail can be the answer on some lines, but it really depends on the route. Many of the disbenefits are over-egged on here (you can’t take a bike on a tram, but then you can only fit roughly one bike per hundred passengers on a Network Rail train, so it’s not like huge numbers do this every day). The “through tickets” argument could easily be solved if the PTE wanted to – we can manage PlusBus tickets to hundreds of thousands of bus stops (but, again, it’s not like this affects the majority of journeys).

So, rather than take a “four legs good, two legs bad” approach, I’ve tried to assess the potential conversion of this line against the kind of criteria that we sometimes use to justify conversion:

Generic reasons to convert to Metrolink?
It’d free up space at National Rail stations/ free up paths due to avoiding conflicting movements (not a huge issue here – it’s only two trains an hour – but I suppose that those paths are useful at Salford)

It’d allow an increased number of services at the stations concerned (true – little scope of a third train an hour on the Atherton line, given that any path from central Manchester through Salford would be better used on more Bolton services, maybe even Blackburn via Bolton)

It’d allow the route to serve some places that National Rail is too inflexible to serve (this was true of Oldham Town Centre, but I can’t think of anywhere on this line where Metrolink could easily divert to? Salford Shopping City? There’s a large area around Swinton that’s some way from a National Rail station, but could Metrolink divert into it?)

Downsides
Impact upon Network Rail services – the current plan to electrify Manchester – Bolton – Wigan (and reduce Kirkby to a self contained shuttle) would keep services pretty simple – of the current five Wigan – Manchester services an hour you could run three EMUs via Bolton and two DMUs via Atherton (which ties up nicely with the two DMUs from Southport). Converting Atherton to Metrolink would mean running DMUs under the wires via Bolton, which isn’t great use of stock. A simple “all Victoria services are Atherton services are Southport services” and “all Piccadilly services are via Bolton services” timetable would simplify things for passengers – Metrolink would make them more complicated.

It’d also presumably mean a reduction in the number of Wigan – Manchester trains. It’s already complicated enough with trains from Wigan North Western serving Manchester Piccadilly, and trains from Wigan Wallgate serving Manchester Victoria or Manchester Piccadilly without bringing in another option.

How would you link to the current “network”? The line through Victoria is going in the wrong direction (north east) ,would you wait for the second city crossing and extend north west from Deansgate? Not sure how it’d link to the current Metrolink lines.

So, on balance, no. There are lines where light rail conversion currently works, there are lines where light rail conversion looks attractive (I’ve suggested closing Rotherham Central in the past), but I think that there are other priorities in Greater Manchester right now (if you want a new Metrolink route then Rochdale – Bury – Bolton would have to be a contender?).

The only way I’d consider it a good idea would be if you electrified to Southport and maintained the current National Rail frequency from Wigan to Manchester, but I can’t see that happening – if anything, a frequent tram from Wigan to Manchester may be the excuse to cut the National Rail frequency down to just a couple of trains an hour (all via Bolton, of course).
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

northwichcat

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
32,692
Location
Northwich
A simple “all Victoria services are Atherton services are Southport services” and “all Piccadilly services are via Bolton services” timetable would simplify things for passengers – Metrolink would make them more complicated.

Not quite unless you're proposing removing Wigan as a TPE calling point.

It could also be the case that all Wigan North Western services will be electric and all Wigan Wallgate services will be diesel.
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
26,835
Location
Nottingham
I think the reason this isn't going forward as a Metrolink or tram-train route is to do with the very expensive tracks that would be needed from somewhere in central Manchester to somewhere near Salford Crescent to link it to the rest of Metrolink.
 

northwichcat

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
32,692
Location
Northwich
Northern don't do Advances.

Virgin offer Advance tickets from pretty much every station in the North West to destinations which include travel with Virgin. Quite often it's only £1 extra to buy an Advance from your local station compared with where you join a Virgin service e.g. £1 more for Rochdale-London via Manchester than for Manchester-London.
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
41,805
Location
Yorks
Of course there are other areas of the current heavy rail network in manchester that are possible converts to light rail....Marple line being one such example. Metrolink per se does not have an operating subsidy, it stands on its own 2 feet with running costs covered by the farebox. Do you think its a better use of public money if an investment is made using scarce state funds which actually leads to no reduction in subsidy or indeed an increase? This was a point very well made by Paul Sidorczuk and his description of the Todmorden Curve situation.

Like I said earlier, perhaps there needs to be a proper investigation as to why one vehicle on rails costs so much more than another vehicle on rails. My suspicion is that the way the network is managed distorts the cost of local heavy rail, so I'm not convinced about the subsidy argument.

Also, you seem to be against what will be a relatively modest increase in operating subsidy, yet you have bags of capital to throw around the place. I can think of areas that currently have no rail link, light or heavy, that would be more deserving of such a relatively large capital cost than converting what is already a good rail link. I tend to agree with Manchester's current approach, which is to increase rail provision in areas that don't have rail. This seems sensible.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Northern don't do Advances.

The Atherton route is part of the national network, so passengers might be connecting to an advanced ticket on another TOC.
 

muz379

Established Member
Joined
23 Jan 2014
Messages
2,419
Can anybody else answer this one.....

If improving public transport links to a NHS facility is a good idea ( i think it is !! ) then surely doing that in the most efficient and cost effective way has to be a win win situation all round yes?


Muz...maybe you could.....then once answered maybe we can look at an example locally and see how it could be funded?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---



I m sorry did you say it was my silly idea? Are you saying nobody else has already considered this??

Network Rail are responsible for maintaining and using government funds for investing in the Atherton Line......do you think there is a possibility that Network Rail themselves might consider this line suitable to a tram or tram/train operation? They certainly mention trams and tram/trains in their own literature on future developments in other areas.
TFGM the people who actually own and spend any investment in metrolink have written the idea off as silly so now it appears you are on your own with the idea .

If network rail want to pay to convert the line to metrolink and then gift it to TFGM then I will help guide the pigs in to land myself .

In which case great .....an investment to improve public transport. Doesnt investing in Metrolink acheive the same results though? ie improvement in public transport?

Investing in public transport and more specifically Metrolink is good for places that are not connected with any sort of railway .

But spending the estimated £280M to convert a already good rail link to light rail does not improve the situation for anybody .

In your efficient drive to reduce public spending on anything whatsoever and particularly rail services how can you then justify spending £280million to change the type of signals and colour and type of trains on some track ?
and It will hurt passengers at the farebox .



One thing I often wonder about this wondrous metrolink is how many above inflation fare increases is it going to take before passenger numbers start to tail off and a subsidy is required . Given that in April this year I saw figures that suggested that only 47% of passengers where satisfied with the value for money the metrolink offers I dont think it will take long .

I mean taking passenger numbers and then speaking about metrolink in terms like this is wrong IMO
......which is a light rail system which is a very busy and popular way of getting around.

I mean I could say the oxford road corridor is the busiest bus route in Europe and so those buses must be popular . They aren't its just people need a way to get to work .

Metrolink just like any other public transport offering is a means to an end for the large majority of the passengers that use it .

Moonshot when you stay stuff like the above you sound like a fanboy or employee of metrolink rather than someone who is prepared to enter into sensible discussion about it .

There are some places it might be feasible and a good idea to extend it too . But this is not one of them . Like I said earlier TFGM wrote the idea off and are not going to ask the government for funding . As you have said to me in the past , if you are think you are better than the experts on this matter then please do but a bid forward to the government for funding on behalf of TFGM .
 
Last edited:

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
26,835
Location
Nottingham
Just about everywhere a train service has been replaced by a light rail service, the replacement has extended off the original railway to provide through services to important destinations that were difficult to access before. Examples are linking Wimbledon to the centre of Croydon, Bury and Altrincham to the centre of Manchester, and all the Karlsruhe tram-train routes to the centre of Karlsruhe. If this doesn't happen then the benefits of trams over trains are frankly rather marginal, and some of the operating cost savings of trams (even perhaps including line of sight operation) could be realised with trains on a fairly low-speed urban route.

I can only think of two exceptions off the top of my head. One is the Parry People Mover at Stourbridge, which is very unusual in that virtually no infrastructure work was needed so a saving in leasing and running costs could be obtained for almost no investment. The other is the tram-train T4 in Paris which has taken over an existing rail route and remains very railway-like including 25kV electrification although running on line of sight. This was I think a bit of a toe-in-the-water exercise by SNCF, and is now proposed to be extended into the street environment. When I visited a few weeks ago it was noticeable how lightly used it was compared with other tramways around Paris.

Other tram-train or tram conversion proposals which remain on the railway have been failures, for example Gouda-Alphen and Watford-St Albans.
 

WatcherZero

Established Member
Joined
25 Feb 2010
Messages
10,272
I think people are misreading the report, rather than writing it off it calls for more research and refinement of the route noting that the appraisal fails to capture all the financial and non-financial benefits and the knock on is far higher from providing more terminals for services on the north west side of the conurbation.It believes it could be a springboard for other branches in the area.

TfGM is putting together a collective package of tram-train routes and upgrading of Manchester Piccadilly of circa £600m as part of the HS2 access package that would provide critical mass for economies of scale and would be partially financed by a contribution reflecting reduced heavy rail subsidy.

And lets just say from murmurings ive heard personally from those involved at TfGM, the Council and Network Rail that behind closed doors there is work progressing on this project.
 
Last edited:

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
41,805
Location
Yorks
I think people are misreading the report, rather than writing it off it calls for more research and refinement of the route noting that the appraisal fails to capture all the financial and non-financial benefits and the knock on is far higher from providing more terminals for services on the north west side of the conurbation.It believes it could be a springboard for other branches in the area.

TfGM is putting together a collective package of tram-train routes and upgrading of Manchester Piccadilly of circa £600m as part of the HS2 access package that would provide critical mass for economies of scale and would be partially financed by a contribution reflecting reduced heavy rail subsidy.

And lets just say from murmurings ive heard personally from those involved at TfGM, the Council and Network Rail that behind closed doors there is work progressing on this project.

I suppose that by that time I will have a crappy guided busway to access the area.

I dread WY Metro having anything to do with the Manchester brigade.
 

northwichcat

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
32,692
Location
Northwich
And lets just say from murmurings ive heard personally from those involved at TfGM, the Council and Network Rail that behind closed doors there is work progressing on this project.

TfGM haven't been so quiet about saying Marple tram-train is a project they want to progress with and the one they hope will be be the first tram-trains in the Manchester area.
 

Moonshot

Established Member
Joined
10 Nov 2013
Messages
3,770
Somebody mentioned Bolton on this thread......I happened to be there yesterday on a work break, so took the opportunity to have a look at the re development work going on for the new bus/train interchange. When I m in uniform but away from trains direct, i often get asked questions by members of the public, and indeed one approached me whilst I was looking at the development and asked " Are we getting trams in Bolton?"
 

Moonshot

Established Member
Joined
10 Nov 2013
Messages
3,770
That's probably down to a campaign spearheaded by the English Democrats and an Independent Councillor to reinstate a rail link between Bury and Bolton.

I ve no idea to be honest, I m just simple poinitng out what a member of the public asked me ( are we getting trams in Bolton ? ) , and they certainly didnt mention any political campaign to me.

Do you think it would be a good idea to have a tram link between Bury and Bolton?
 

muz379

Established Member
Joined
23 Jan 2014
Messages
2,419
And let me guess cos one supposed person on a supposed break at Bolton asked you if they where getting the tram in Bolton the whole population of Bolton want a tram connection instead of a rail one and metrolink would be popular in Bolton :roll:
 

Moonshot

Established Member
Joined
10 Nov 2013
Messages
3,770
And let me guess cos one supposed person on a supposed break at Bolton asked you if they where getting the tram in Bolton the whole population of Bolton want a tram connection instead of a rail one and metrolink would be popular in Bolton :roll:

Where did I state that a tram in Bolton would replace the rail line? I simply mentioned what someone asked me just whilst I was observing what was happening on the new development for the bus station/interchange.

Do you think it would be a good idea for the tram to connect Bolton to Bury?
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
41,805
Location
Yorks
Where did I state that a tram in Bolton would replace the rail line? I simply mentioned what someone asked me just whilst I was observing what was happening on the new development for the bus station/interchange.

Do you think it would be a good idea for the tram to connect Bolton to Bury?

I think that would be a project worth considering.
 

muz379

Established Member
Joined
23 Jan 2014
Messages
2,419
Where did I state that a tram in Bolton would replace the rail line? I simply mentioned what someone asked me just whilst I was observing what was happening on the new development for the bus station/interchange.

Do you think it would be a good idea for the tram to connect Bolton to Bury?

Im not opposed to a Bury-Bolton Link in principle . It would provide a new link and would not take away from existing heavy rail capacity .

However without seeing a full study done with projected passenger numbers , investment costs etc I cannot say for sure if It is a good idea or not .
 

Nym

Established Member
Joined
2 Mar 2007
Messages
9,479
Location
Somewhere, not in London
How about onwards to Rochdale in one dorection and possibly connections using Tram Trains to get onwards to Wigan? Four track from Bolton to Lostock Jcns anyone?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top