Should the Ellesmere Port line have been electrified?

[Bletchleyite]

The Ellesmere Port line was a later extension to the electrified network, in general has it not been much of a success? Presumably people in Ellesmere Port still like going into Liverpool City Centre in normal circumstances or do they gravitate more towards Chester?

It was always going to be relatively low demand - it's small, not very prosperous and not (unlike Chester, Southport and Ormskirk) a destination, nor (unlike Chester, Kirkby, Southport and Ormskirk) is it useful for connections.

Was probably justifiable on the grounds of economic assistance as it won't have cost a lot to do it, but I do wonder if it should have remained as an hourly DMU from Hooton.

 

[telstarbox]

Easier to maintain one type of train rather than two though?

 

[Kite159]

Easier to maintain one type of train rather than two though?

Although I would guess had it remained diesel the service wouldn't be run by Merseyrail but by the Northern franchise.

 

[Ianno87]

It was always going to be relatively low demand - it's small, not very prosperous and not (unlike Chester, Southport and Ormskirk) a destination, nor (unlike Chester, Kirkby, Southport and Ormskirk) is it useful for connections.

Was probably justifiable on the grounds of economic assistance as it won't have cost a lot to do it, but I do wonder if it should have remained as an hourly DMU from Hooton.

Almost certainly (As was the BR style at the time), the case for electrification made efficient use of the Merseyrail EMU fleet, whilst being able to cover a token service to Helsby only from a bit of 'slack' in the utilisation of the DMU fleet (thus saving the cost a 'dedicated' DMU)

 

[S&CLER]

It was always going to be relatively low demand - it's small, not very prosperous and not (unlike Chester, Southport and Ormskirk) a destination, nor (unlike Chester, Kirkby, Southport and Ormskirk) is it useful for connections.

Was probably justifiable on the grounds of economic assistance as it won't have cost a lot to do it, but I do wonder if it should have remained as an hourly DMU from Hooton.

The total cost of the Chester and E. Port scheme (from Hooton) was £11 million at mid-1990s prices; my maths isn't good enough to work out what that is at 2020 prices, and in any case you would need inflation historical statistics to do so. Ibet the inflation in rail electrification costs has outstripped the general inflation rate. The eventual contribution from Cheshire CC was £2 million. I cannot say what portion the E. Port branch accounted for, but the scheme included a substation at Ellesmere Port and also the construction of a bay platform to allow cross-platform interchange with the emus; but the money ran out before the necessary track changes could be made, so this bay has never had any track (source: T.B. Maund, Merseyrail Electrics, pp. 61-62). You can see it partly hidden by bushes in a good photo of an emu at E. Port station, taken by TheSel, somewhere on another thread.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The latter is interesting, thanks - I never understood why it didn't look like Ormskirk or Kirkby.

 

[furnessvale]

It was always going to be relatively low demand - it's small, not very prosperous and not (unlike Chester, Southport and Ormskirk) a destination, nor (unlike Chester, Kirkby, Southport and Ormskirk) is it useful for connections.

Was probably justifiable on the grounds of economic assistance as it won't have cost a lot to do it, but I do wonder if it should have remained as an hourly DMU from Hooton.

Wasn't there always a rumour that nobody was keen on arcing third rail electrics passing Stanlow Oil Refinery?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I do wonder if it should have remained as an hourly DMU from Hooton

What was the pre-electrification service pattern - did the shuttle only run Hooton - Ellesmere Port with only occasional trains beyond that, or did all services carry on from Ellesmere Port to somewhere else?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I think the last DMU version was a Chester-Hooton-Ellesmere Port shuttle, maybe extended to Helsby at times.
This would have been expensive to operate, so that needs to be set against the electrification cost.
Post electrification, FNW did operate an hourly EP-Warrington-Liverpool service for a few years, before it was cut back to Warrington-Liverpool with a peak shuttle to EP.
EP is quite a busy place but doesn't seem to generate the number of commuters you would expect.
Cheshire Oaks is hugely busy and a major attraction, but it's an awkward mile away from the station.
I suspect New Brighton is a bit similar, though they have more affinity with Liverpool.
Certainly the EP trains turning up at Hooton are a lot quieter than the Chesters, even though the latter have (had!) double the frequency.
Many locals use Hooton anyway for the 6tph and large car park.

Best to gloss over costs of electrification - I suspect they were dirt cheap by modern standards.
We must just be glad it got done, it's just a pity Merseyrail expansion then seemed to stop.

 

[tbtc]

Is this one of those examples where local politics is more important than potential travel demands?

e.g. if you were starting from scratch, you might have an hourly service from Manchester/ Warrington/ Runcorn to Ellesmere Port and through to Birkenhead (there's quite a population on the peninsula that has no direct service to Manchester - I know that the majority of demand will clearly be to Liverpool and that there are connections there but if people on here want to focus on the kind of long distance routes that a handful of people might use once a year then I don't think it's unreasonable that the Wirral peninsula may have some demand for a through Manchester service)

But if you electrify to Ellesmere Port (and Kirkby etc) then Merseyside keeps control of local trains for local people - same as finishing electrification at places like Hazel Grove (on the edge of another big city's sphere of influence - it's not just a Merseyside thing to want to have local control over local trains)

 

[S&CLER]

Is this one of those examples where local politics is more important than potential travel demands?

e.g. if you were starting from scratch, you might have an hourly service from Manchester/ Warrington/ Runcorn to Ellesmere Port and through to Birkenhead (there's quite a population on the peninsula that has no direct service to Manchester - I know that the majority of demand will clearly be to Liverpool and that there are connections there but if people on here want to focus on the kind of long distance routes that a handful of people might use once a year then I don't think it's unreasonable that the Wirral peninsula may have some demand for a through Manchester service)

But if you electrify to Ellesmere Port (and Kirkby etc) then Merseyside keeps control of local trains for local people - same as finishing electrification at places like Hazel Grove (on the edge of another big city's sphere of influence - it's not just a Merseyside thing to want to have local control over local trains)

The amount of traffic on the M56 presumably shows the demand for travel from west Cheshire to Manchester. The other big draw in the area for locals is said to be Runcorn Shopping City, but this is not easily accessible by rail. The original master plan for Runcorn New Town proposed closing Runcorn old station and building a new mainline station near Halton Junction, which would have been nearer the new town centre, next to the busway and the Shopping City. It was contemplated that the new station would have had a separate platform to accommodate a third rail extension from Hooton, thus allowing interchange with WCML services as well as catering for local traffic. Given dual-voltage stock, it would have been possible also to run to Liverpool via Ditton.
The idea never materialised, and Runcorn East station was built instead.

 

[Bamford]

I think the last DMU version was a Chester-Hooton-Ellesmere Port shuttle, maybe extended to Helsby at times.
This would have been expensive to operate, so that needs to be set against the electrification cost.
Post electrification, FNW did operate an hourly EP-Warrington-Liverpool service for a few years, before it was cut back to Warrington-Liverpool with a peak shuttle to EP.
EP is quite a busy place but doesn't seem to generate the number of commuters you would expect.
Cheshire Oaks is hugely busy and a major attraction, but it's an awkward mile away from the station.
I suspect New Brighton is a bit similar, though they have more affinity with Liverpool.
Certainly the EP trains turning up at Hooton are a lot quieter than the Chesters, even though the latter have (had!) double the frequency.
Many locals use Hooton anyway for the 6tph and large car park.

Best to gloss over costs of electrification - I suspect they were dirt cheap by modern standards.
We must just be glad it got done, it's just a pity Merseyrail expansion then seemed to stop.

My inner crayonista says in an ideal world you would extend the EP branch to Cheshire Oaks using the M53 corridor, even onto the Zoo if possible. I am however aware this would probably cost bazillions

 

[S&CLER]

Is the run-round siding to the north of Hooton station still in regular use? If not, would it be useful to slew the passenger lines into it and reopen the former platform where the ticket office and shop are? This would allow the present up platform 3 to be closed; either the present platform 1 or 2 would become the up platform. Down passengers would no longer need to use the footbridge to leave/access platform 2. There was also a bay adjoining the disused platform, which could be used for an Ellesmere Port shuttle, if it ever became necessary to cut train-mileage even further.

For the avoidance of doubt, the Down Chester is from Liverpool to Hooton; but the Quail map, 3rd edition, shows that from Hooton to Chester it becomes the Up Birkenhead. Confusing!

 

[8H]

The Wirral to both EP and Chester and beyond is worth developing afresh after the destruction of the 1960’s. Assuming everything middle and long distance can just go via Liverpool has never worked and does not address the much needed modern opportunity for modal shift out of cars and buses that poor journey times and indifferent connections have held back for decades. A circular Liverpool Birkenhead Hooton EP Helsby Warrington Saint Helens Liverpool would ultimately be good at making a modal shift challenger off the M53/M56 especially for journeys on and off the Wirral or even something circular that went Frodsham Runcorn Liverpool after Helsby. As to the four track bed formation from Rock Ferry to Ledsham (as was) that could get Wirral passengers quickly onto the WCML at Crewe as well as into North Wales and Shropshire. West Wirral needs something to, from Wrexham Bidston and with better frequency and Shotton interchange improved at least has something to look forward to.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The run-round loop at Hooton is still there but looks increasingly decrepit (crumbling sleepers etc). It only has freight signalling.
It wasn't that long ago that Merseyrail built a new footbridge/lift accessing all 4 platforms, so they clearly had no plan to change the track layout.
It is a very odd situation though, with the booking office and facilities (including a nice if short canopy) on a disused platform, requiring everybody to use the footbridge (or lift), and to use the small bus-stop shelters.
In the distant past I used the bay platform on what was then P1, heading towards Helsby.
There are of course another 2 abandoned platforms to the west, P5/6 originally, which used to serve the West Kirby branch.
Some of the platform structures are still in place.
The old Willaston station, a mile west, is a nicely preserved attraction on what is now the Wirral Way, complete with semaphore signals and crossing gates.
At Hooton, a direct exit from station to car park would be handy...
The signal box is now not manned (control has moved to Chester PSB), so presumably it could be removed if necessary (though there's electric gubbins in the way).

 

[HSTEd]

The total cost of the Chester and E. Port scheme (from Hooton) was £11 million at mid-1990s prices; my maths isn't good enough to work out what that is at 2020 prices, and in any case you would need inflation historical statistics to do so. Ibet the inflation in rail electrification costs has outstripped the general inflation rate. The eventual contribution from Cheshire CC was £2 million. I cannot say what portion the E. Port branch accounted for, but the scheme included a substation at Ellesmere Port and also the construction of a bay platform to allow cross-platform interchange with the emus; but the money ran out before the necessary track changes could be made, so this bay has never had any track (source: T.B. Maund, Merseyrail Electrics, pp. 61-62). You can see it partly hidden by bushes in a good photo of an emu at E. Port station, taken by TheSel, somewhere on another thread.

Circa 1994, £11m translates into almost exactly £22m in today's money.
So the cost is negligible.

I am not in anyway sad it was done.

 

[S&CLER]

Circa 1994, £11m translates into almost exactly £22m in today's money.
So the cost is negligible.

I am not in anyway sad it was done.

There were 11.5 miles of double track involved; or £0.478 million per single track mile, a bargain, in my opinion.

 

[HSTEd]

There were 11.5 miles of double track involved; or £0.478 million per single track mile, a bargain, in my opinion.

In today's money it comes to £600k/stkm.

Shows a) how much inflation in construction has outstripped regular inflation and b) how LVDC systems work well on (comparatively) low demand systems.

Integrated railways probably help with construction costs in this case because I imagine a lot of the civils work (laying rail etc) was probably done by regular staff on overtime or slack time.

 

[A0wen]

In today's money it comes to £600k/stkm.

Shows a) how much inflation in construction has outstripped regular inflation and b) how LVDC systems work well on (comparatively) low demand systems.

Integrated railways probably help with construction costs in this case because I imagine a lot of the civils work (laying rail etc) was probably done by regular staff on overtime or slack time.

I suspect @Bald Rick might have something to add on your comments about the claim "inflation in construction has outstripped regular inflation" as I suspect your fag-packet calculations don't stand up to reality.

I'm not sure we've had any recent 3rd rail electrification extensions to assess how costly or otherwise this was - most recent schemes seem to have been OHLE which isn't comparable.

 

[HSTEd]

I suspect Bald Rick might have something to add on your comments about the claim "inflation in construction has outstripped regular inflation"

That construction inflation has outstripped regular inflation is one of his favourite talking points in explaining why everything is so expensive these days.

I'm not sure we've had any recent 3rd rail electrification extensions to assess how costly or otherwise this was - most recent schemes seem to have been OHLE which isn't comparable.

It produces an electrified railway.
In the scenario of the line between Ellesmere Port and Hooton, the differences are pretty much irrelevant,.

 

[Bald Rick]

That construction inflation has outstripped regular inflation is one of his favourite talking points in explaining why everything is so expensive these days.

Correct! Although it’s not the only reason. We also build things on the railway to a higher standard these days.

 

[frodshamfella]

My inner crayonista says in an ideal world you would extend the EP branch to Cheshire Oaks using the M53 corridor, even onto the Zoo if possible. I am however aware this would probably cost bazillions

A Cheshire Oaks link would be very good, the place is rammed with cars, I avoid it for the reason.

 

[Whistler40145]

I would've electrified Warrington Bank Quay to Chester with 25kV OHLE and include Helsby to Ellesmere Port, using dual voltage EMUS

 

[frodshamfella]

There were 11.5 miles of double track involved; or £0.478 million per single track mile, a bargain, in my opinion.

Indeed, the good folk of Ellesmere Port and those intermediate station shouldn't have been left out

 

[A0wen]

I would've electrified Warrington Bank Quay to Chester with 25kV OHLE and include Helsby to Ellesmere Port, using dual voltage EMUS

You may have liked to, but whether you'd have been allowed to is a different matter. AIUI the issue with electrifying beyond Ellesmere Port towards Helsby is the fact the line runs in *very* close proximity to Stanlow Oil Refinery and the risks of having an electrified railway close by was felt to be too high......

 

[A0wen]

It produces an electrified railway.
In the scenario of the line between Ellesmere Port and Hooton, the differences are pretty much irrelevant,.

But to a different standard with different demands - the demands for the Merseyrail electrification extensions were for at most 4 x 6 car units on a relatively low speed using 3rd rail. You can't compare that to, for example, the GWML or MML electrifications which are for 100+ mph 25kv overhead installations - yes they both result in having an "electrified railway" - but that's like saying building a 1 bed house and a 5 bed mansion both result in a house being built.

 

[Whistler40145]

You may have liked to, but whether you'd have been allowed to is a different matter. AIUI the issue with electrifying beyond Ellesmere Port towards Helsby is the fact the line runs in *very* close proximity to Stanlow Oil Refinery and the risks of having an electrified railway close by was felt to be too high......

Could battery operated Class 777s be the option?

 

[HSTEd]

But to a different standard with different demands - the demands for the Merseyrail electrification extensions were for at most 4 x 6 car units on a relatively low speed using 3rd rail. You can't compare that to, for example, the GWML or MML electrifications which are for 100+ mph 25kv overhead installations - yes they both result in having an "electrified railway" - but that's like saying building a 1 bed house and a 5 bed mansion both result in a house being built.

If you are in a situation where you will only need one bed houses in the future then they are comparable.
Virtually all the high performance railway electrification installations on existing lines that will ever be required have already occured.

We are now in a situation where future projects resemble Ellesmere Port far more than they resemble the MML.
But this is going off topic.

 

[A0wen]

Could battery operated Class 777s be the option?

Possibly - but 25 years ago when electrification reached Ellesmere Port and Chester such things didn't really exist.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Possibly - but 25 years ago when electrification reached Ellesmere Port and Chester such things didn't really exist.

What usage would say an hourly Merseyrail service get? Stanlow and Thornton I guess not much, but Elton seems a reasonably sized village, and there's Helsby itself?