Should the Stocksbridge Line be saved now for passenger use, before it is too late?

[dosxuk]

Suggestions in some quarters for a half hourly service to Stocksbridge seem wildly optimistic given that the existing Don Valley stations between Sheffield and Doncaster only receive an hourly 2 car service. Restoring that to half hourly might be as much as we can currently contemplate.

Is that because of the demand levels, or because it's as much as the infrastructure can currently support?

Personally, I believe there is a significant amount of untapped demand for rail services (light-rail / tram-train / heavy-rail) across the Sheffield city region, however there isn't the infrastructure to support the services that would unlock the demand. Study after study seems to support the idea of re-opening stations along the existing heavy rail routes, but the business case collapses when you analyse it and discover how much work would need to be done to provide services to those stations without damaging the existing medium/long distance services from Sheffield Midland. Between Totley tunnel and Meadowhall there are numerous stations with good catchment areas, but actually providing a service that can stop at those stations regularly enough to encourage people to change to rail is going to end up insanely expensive.

 

[Killingworth]

Is that because of the demand levels, or because it's as much as the infrastructure can currently support?

Personally, I believe there is a significant amount of untapped demand for rail services (light-rail / tram-train / heavy-rail) across the Sheffield city region, however there isn't the infrastructure to support the services that would unlock the demand. Study after study seems to support the idea of re-opening stations along the existing heavy rail routes, but the business case collapses when you analyse it and discover how much work would need to be done to provide services to those stations without damaging the existing medium/long distance services from Sheffield Midland. Between Totley tunnel and Meadowhall there are numerous stations with good catchment areas, but actually providing a service that can stop at those stations regularly enough to encourage people to change to rail is going to end up insanely expensive.

I digress from this thread by pointing out that Dore probably has the most affluent catchment area of all stations in South Yorkshire and sees hourly trains across Sheffield stopping at Meadowhall and Doncaster. Some are scheduled to stop. 4 in the morning to Manchester, the 8.04 from Manchester to Cleethorpes and 5 in the evening from Manchester. None are particularly convenient for those wanting to work or shop at Meadowhall, or connect onto the East Coast Mainline.

The Sheffield MPs proposal to the Restoring Your Railway Fund to reopen Heeley, Millhouses, Beauchief stations, restore Midland mainline platforms at Dore and open a new station at Totley (first petitioned for about 1904) has, I understand, been unsuccessful twice. Even getting a second hourly stopping train per hour at Dore (a station that recorded over 200,000 passengers p.a. pre-Covid) seems unlikely any time soon. if we can't revitalise stations on current active passenger carrying tracks ploughing scarce resources into long closed lines seems a poor focus of effort. I say this having looked at the remaining old track beds into Sheffield from the south and noting the removed rail overbridges, slewed tracks and variety of lineside developments that now encroach, both on remaining railway land and also on land sold off into private hands. Electrification work would offer opportunity for that at the same time, but I suspect it won't happen - different budgets!

Back to the upper Don Valley.

 

[D365]

A question I've been meaning to ask... What's behind this fascination of curving a tram viaduct across Victoria Quays or Nunnery Square?!

 

[tbtc]

The irony in all of this is that SYPTE have historically had aspirations to run to a train service to Stocksbridge for over 40 years. In the late 70 or early 80s that I saw an exhibition in the city where they showcased all their plans for the SY rail network, including a line to Stocksbridge. It prompted me to ask if it would include Penistone but was met with a glazed look and a 'where is that?' response

Is this the idea for Stocksbridge/ Barnsley/ Rotherham/ Chesterfield to have a fifteen minute shuttle into Sheffield which would combine for a frequent underground loop around the city centre?

I’ve read about it, but details are hazy (might ever have been all the way to Doncaster?)

Newcastle and Liverpool had their swanky new schemes at the time (and Manchester was formulating plans), so I can understand why Sheffield wanted something similar

Instead, we didn’t get backing for heavy rail and instead spent the money on subsidising bus fares (the infamous two pence tickets), which was great at the time but meant we don’t have anything to show for it now (no infrastructure)

If only!

Mind you, that was when SYPTE had vision, money and some muscle, these days it cant even come up with money for failing bus routes

That’s one reason I really resent some of these increasingly complicated/ expensive “solutions” - public transport in/ around Sheffield has lost lots of links over the years, we can’t have more than an hourly evening/ Sunday bus service on corridors that were once “Overground”, things are pretty threadbare

If this is a Stocksbridge- focused thread then consider that Stocksbridge used to have two buses an hour to Barnsley (381/383/384), hourly to the Northern General (201), two an hour to Meadowhall (aforementioned 201 and also 21), the Holmfirth service was once hourly on Sundays (extended 57).., we can’t fund Such things now so daydreaming about hundreds of millions for a project involving a viaduct over the Parkway etc seem “optimistic”

But, hey, i probably lack vision and should “believe” more!

Posts like this aren’t particularly helpful; confidently stating that a station in an urban area in a major city has zero demand, is just ‘fake news.’ There is always going to be at least some demand, even if you don’t think it’s enough. Otherwise lets close down Merseyrail, half the Glasgow rail network, Nexus etc…

I don’t think anyone is claiming that the annual passenger numbers would be zero (?)

Just that the passenger numbers would be too low to justify the money needed for all of these expensive “solutions“ - there’s a huge difference

I’m sure a non stop service from Thurso to Penzance would have more than zero passengers but that doesn’t make it a good idea either

You are entirely misquoting me, I was extremely clear that I was being speculative about Worksop services. I think a simple Victoria station is more deliverable than a new chord, as the line is there and a concrete platform is all that is required. If you think a bit of concrete is beyond reason, you are welcome to believe that but I don’t agree with you

This isn’t the 1980s any more, we can’t get away with cutting corners

More opinion dressed as fact. It was (and is) a sincere attempt, that is still on going as documented earlier in this thread. It is also supported by the Labour mayor and on his website (so enjoys cross-party support)

Again, Mayors (and MPs etc) need to be seen to support any investment in their area, it doesn’t mean it’d be a priority if Coppard had the funds to do much (and Coppard barely has the money to maintain existing provisions)

Plenty said the retail park would be a flop

Not just “people”, but also Tesco who abandoned their plans to be the anchor tenant there, which is why there’s a slightly larger than usual Aldi instead to fill the gap

Using the current line would also help relieve the A61 which is often congested as the main Northern access to the M1, if park and ride facilities were provided at Oughtibridge and Wadsley Bridge.

The traffic congestion is much worse north of Wadsley Bridge, the single carriageway road through the woods north of Grenoside etc -

 

[BrianB]

Is this the idea for Stocksbridge/ Barnsley/ Rotherham/ Chesterfield to have a fifteen minute shuttle into Sheffield which would combine for a frequent underground loop around the city centre?

I’ve read about it, but details are hazy (might ever have been all the way to Doncaster?)

i think it was, it was a long time ago now, cant find any evidence online about it

 

[OVS Flatbottom]

i think it was, it was a long time ago now, cant find any evidence online about it

Try https://walkleyhistory.files.wordpr...-put-it-together-spiral-bound-booklet-144.pdf, pages 9 and 11 of the PDF.

 

[Iskra]

If this is a Stocksbridge- focused thread then consider that Stocksbridge used to have two buses an hour to Barnsley (381/383/384), hourly to the Northern General (201), two an hour to Meadowhall (aforementioned 201 and also 21), the Holmfirth service was once hourly on Sundays (extended 57).., we can’t fund Such things now so daydreaming about hundreds of millions for a project involving a viaduct over the Parkway etc seem “optimistic”

But, hey, i probably lack vision and should “believe” more!



I don’t think anyone is claiming that the annual passenger numbers would be zero (?)

Just that the passenger numbers would be too low to justify the money needed for all of these expensive “solutions“ - there’s a huge difference

I’m sure a non stop service from Thurso to Penzance would have more than zero passengers but that doesn’t make it a good idea either



This isn’t the 1980s any more, we can’t get away with cutting corners



Again, Mayors (and MPs etc) need to be seen to support any investment in their area, it doesn’t mean it’d be a priority if Coppard had the funds to do much (and Coppard barely has the money to maintain existing provisions)



Not just “people”, but also Tesco who abandoned their plans to be the anchor tenant there, which is why there’s a slightly larger than usual Aldi instead to fill the gap



The traffic congestion is much worse north of Wadsley Bridge, the single carriageway road through the woods north of Grenoside etc -

Stocksbridge doesn't need buses to Barnsley, it gravitates to Sheffield while Penistone gravitates more to Barnsley,

'Zero justification,' it's a bold claim...

It is relatively cheap to just use the existing line as I have said all along.

It would still be built to todays' standards, but would be cheap in comparison to anything else offered in this thread, or even many existing projects that have/are going ahead, like pointlessly moving stations 500m on the Transpennine Core...

The Tesco abandonment wasn't to do with Stocksbridge not being a viable place for a Tesco. Aldi and Iceland do well enough. with the Home Bargains being one of the busiest in Yorkshire and that's with a Lidl and large Co-op in the town too as well as a Tesco in nearby Penistone. Tesco pulled out due to their own internal issues and due to concern about another food retailer being on the site (which never came to fruition). M&S Food were also interested but they pulled out because of the Tesco (before Tesco pulled out)...

I disagree, having spent 6 years commuting on it; the traffic is stop/start queuing from Sheffield to the Hillsborough/Wadsley Bridge area due to the constant traffic lights and then it is at least continuously moving on the single track section, even if it's not always fast. The single track section is the easier bit in my opinion.

Also there is the perception in Britain that bus use (outside London) has a stigma attached to it unless you are a pensioner, student or young mother. Why is this? It doesn't seem to apply anywhere else in Europe. It's always been much easier to persuade car drivers to switch to trains or trams. Getting off topic so maybe worth a separate thread.

AIUI it's generally held to stem from Mrs Thatcher, who made a comment along the lines of anybody who found themselves riding a bus at the age of 25 can regard themselves as a failure. It's unclear if she ever actually made any such statement, or even something with that meaning, let alone whether or not the stigma of buses existed prior to her premiership.

An interesting topic, perhaps worthy of a thread in the bus section?

 

[Arkeeos]

Also there is the perception in Britain that bus use (outside London) has a stigma attached to it unless you are a pensioner, student or young mother. Why is this? It doesn't seem to apply anywhere else in Europe. It's always been much easier to persuade car drivers to switch to trains or trams. Getting off topic so maybe worth a separate thread.

In a lot of the rest of Europe, buses are used to get to the higher mode of transportation like a train. While here they are -alot of the time- used as the sole transport.

And its harder to get drivers to switch to buses over trains or trams because a bus will pretty much always be worse than driving, while a tram or train has the (high)possibility of being better.

Anyway here's my proposal for the Stockbridge line, 2 ideas, I think red is better because it penetrates the city centre better but blue is more direct, this way you can also balance the network, by removing some of the terminators from cathedral.

I personally don't really see why you would build a viaduct so far west, when you could just turn it onto the main network in the city centre much sooner, this way might encourage some future development of the tram network.

 

[A0]

AIUI it's generally held to stem from Mrs Thatcher, who made a comment along the lines of anybody who found themselves riding a bus at the age of 25 can regard themselves as a failure. It's unclear if she ever actually made any such statement, or even something with that meaning, let alone whether or not the stigma of buses existed prior to her premiership.

Bit in bold - I challenge you to prove she actually said that.

 

[Killingworth]

In a lot of the rest of Europe, buses are used to get to the higher mode of transportation like a train. While here they are -alot of the time- used as the sole transport.

And its harder to get drivers to switch to buses over trains or trams because a bus will pretty much always be worse than driving, while a tram or train has the (high)possibility of being better.

Anyway here's my proposal for the Stockbridge line, 2 ideas, I think red is better because it penetrates the city centre better but blue is more direct, this way you can also balance the network, by removing some of the terminators from cathedral.

I personally don't really see why you would build a viaduct so far west, when you could just turn it onto the main network in the city centre much sooner, this way might encourage some future development of the tram network.

Both Waingate and Smig Hill are quite steep, probably greater than Netherthorpe Road. Not a problem for buses. Assumably that would be within the capability of a tram?

 

[Arkeeos]

Both Waingate and Smig Hill are quite steep, probably greater than Netherthorpe Road. Not a problem for buses. Assumably that would be within the capability of a tram?

Sheffield Trams can do at least 1in10 gradients. Smig hill and angel street are at roughly 1in10 gradients, same with Wailgate but someone correct me otherwise. I'm just calculating using the street distance and elevation change over the street.

You would definitely be pushing what the trams could do, and you could still do some terrain work but I think if you wanted trams to use those roads you could get them to use those roads.

 

[D365]

You would definitely be pushing what the trams could do, and you could still do some terrain work but I think if you wanted trams to use those roads you could get them to use those roads.

You'd need some serious earthworks and/or demolition to connect the Stocksbridge line into Derek Dooley Way - I dread to imagine the chaos, and that's just for a flat crossing!

 

[Arkeeos]

You'd need some serious earthworks and/or demolition to connect the Stocksbridge line into Derek Dooley Way - I dread to imagine the chaos, and that's just for a flat crossing!

Well I think all infrastructure projects have some component of disruption!

 

[D365]

Well I think all infrastructure projects have some component of disruption!

I meant the permanent chaos of a flat crossing.

 

[zwk500]

Bit in bold - I challenge you to prove she actually said that.

Did you read the 2nd sentence of my post?

 

[Arkeeos]

I meant the permanent chaos of a flat crossing.

The tram crosses over the ring road 2 times perfectly fine already, so I don’t think it’s too big of an issue

 

[D365]

The tram crosses over the ring road 2 times perfectly fine already, so I don’t think it’s too big of an issue

Only once; the University/Shalesmoor crossings are effectively an elongated reverse-S. And Derek Dooley Way is far busier with traffic heading to/from the Parkway.

Surely, if anything, you'd use the Victoria hotel ramp and link it into the once-proposed Flat Street/Pond Street tram reroute.

 

[Killingworth]

Only once; the University/Shalesmoor crossings are effectively an elongated reverse-S. And Derek Dooley Way is far busier with traffic heading to/from the Parkway.

Surely, if anything, you'd use the Victoria hotel ramp and link it into the once-proposed Flat Street/Pond Street tram reroute.

Have we a guesstimate of the costs and benefits for all this new crayoned infrastructure?

Is there a need for a quicker bus service from Stocksbridge into Sheffield? Yes.

Would an extended tram route from Middlewood help? Yes.

Is it practical?

Look at OS map. Middlewood is only half way to Stocksbridge. From there it would also be difficult to cross the valley to connect with the railway. If it did it's the opposite side of the valley from habitation running mostly through woodland.

Which brings me back to my first sentence. Linking that old railway into a modern transport system in ways proposed so far is allowing nostalgia to overrule commonsense.

 

[Arkeeos]

Only once; the University/Shalesmoor crossings are effectively an elongated reverse-S. And Derek Dooley Way is far busier with traffic heading to/from the Parkway.

Surely, if anything, you'd use the Victoria hotel ramp and link it into the once-proposed Flat Street/Pond Street tram reroute.

Yes, but a tram to Stockbridge wouldn't be as frequent as that line, I would imagine it would be 3/4tph. You could also do a short bridge just over Mowbray street before going down to be at level.

My opposition to using the victoria ramp is that its a generally lower connectivity option and using the other streets would be better suited for further expansion.

 

[Halifaxlad]

How about (once converted to tram train) extending it 6.6km to Penistone ?

I am under the opinion these days that the Penistone line itself should be converted to either tram or tram train operation.

 

[Arkeeos]

Have we a guesstimate of the costs and benefits for all this new crayoned infrastructure?

Is there a need for a quicker bus service from Stocksbridge into Sheffield? Yes.

Would an extended tram route from Middlewood help? Yes.

Is it practical?

Look at OS map. Middlewood is only half way to Stocksbridge. From there it would also be difficult to cross the valley to connect with the railway. If it did it's the opposite side of the valley from habitation running mostly through woodland.

Which brings me back to my first sentence. Linking that old railway into a modern transport system in ways proposed so far is allowing nostalgia to overrule commonsense.

Well the cost of doing this (at least the work in the city centre), wouldn't be exclusively for the line to stocksbridge, but for idea of future expansion as well (maybe it could be done in tandem with an expansion northwards)

In terms of cost of electrifying, there arent many bridges on the line and any that are too low, the track can be dropped and since they're trams doing that is cheaper.

 

[fishwomp]

How about (once converted to tram train) extending it 6.6km to Penistone ?

I am under the opinion these days that the Penistone line itself should be converted to either tram or tram train operation.

I don't see any benefit to a tram-train, just cost.

The line would benefit from electrification given the frequent stops and gradients (Summer Lane specifically)
Extra length to existing passing loops would be an easy win. For example just moving the Penistone south end to where the Oxspring alignment left the mainline - the railway land is unobstructed to use here., That would gain 900 metres of passing - shortening the single track by about 1 minute, which means a late running train reduces its impact on one going the other way by 2 minutes .. which then arrives at Meadowhall and the two tracks to Midland on time instead of in the slot of another etc etc..

 

[GardenRail]

After emailing the local MP for an update:

Thank you for taking the time to write to Miriam Cates MP regarding the Stocksbridge Railway line, and your request for an update with regards to the bid for the restoration of a passenger service along this line.

Miriam is seeking a meeting with the Rail minister to discuss the Stocksbridge Railway line bid and to request an update.

We are aware, however, that there is an ongoing review taking place by the Department for Transport, following the submission of a business case in Autumn 2022.

Whilst you note that the railway line may now be being used to a lesser amount than it has been previously, she has asked that I reassure you that the introduction of a passenger service would require the replacement of the track anyway, and the current usage won’t have an impact upon this.

As ever, Miriam is committed to seeking public transport improvements for all of her constituents, and she asked that I once again share her thanks for taking the time to enquire on this matter.

With very best wishes

Lisa Hancock
Senior Caseworker

Office of Miriam Cates MP
Member of Parliament for Penistone & Stocksbridge

 

[Bartsimho]

Personally, the only way I see it becoming even vaguely viable, is as part of a wider tram-train scheme, probably linking up to Chesterfield and the eastern suburbs of Sheffield.

With a new set of crayons out, linking the Stocksbridge branch all the way through to Chesterfield, while providing interchange possibilities to the existing tram and rail networks would hopefully generate enough demand to make the investment worthwhile. I've included short ~1km extensions to both the Middlewood and Halfway termini to take the Yellow and Blue routes out to meet the existing heavy rail route in order to make this new route a higher-speed "express tram" service as those living in the outer-reaches of the city would hope for, while still increasing the connectivity for local journeys.

That said, I expect the only real demand for this service to come from the eastern suburbs, particularly the AMP and Waverley stations. Pretty much the entire route towards Stocksbridge runs on the opposite side of the river to the housing that does exist, and once you're past Killamarsh heading towards Chesterfield you're pretty much in open countryside all the way.

This really is one of those proposals that the more you look at it, the less it makes sense!

I know this was a bit of a mad plan but with other projects it might actually work. At the Chesterfield end there is a plan for new housing and a HS2 depot (Phase 2b) on the site of old Staveley works which that line passes by. It would have to be Tram-Train as it is a diversionary route into Sheffield Midland when the Bradway Tunnel is closed. It would probably be looking at Platform 3 at Chesterfield which is a full NR platform which sometimes has Northern Trains to Leeds on at Peak times.

Although maybe a better idea is a new tram line from Fulwood-Ranmoor-Endcliffe-Royal Hallamshire-Uni of Sheffield through the central section to a curve at Park Square.

The North of Sheffield station does need to be sorted and I think the Midland Railway had plans to fix it until WW1 and Grouping occurred so it's been a known problem for some time so the entire infrastructure could be changed about at Park Square with the City Centre Emission Zone now present meaning it's deterring traffic from the Parkway. The city is also basically breaking out of the Ring Road so that needs to be de-congested. Maybe a Tram-Train route to a Park and Ride at Catcliffe could work there.

The Price might be high on it's own but the entire section needs work to de-car the area.

 

[D365]

Although maybe a better idea is a new tram line from Fulwood-Ranmoor-Endcliffe-Royal Hallamshire-Uni of Sheffield through the central section to a curve at Park Square.

This was planned at one point, there was even a digital 'impression' of the route uploaded to YouTube.

 

[Killingworth]

Although maybe a better idea is a new tram line from Fulwood-Ranmoor-Endcliffe-Royal Hallamshire-Uni of Sheffield through the central section to a curve at Park Square.

The North of Sheffield station does need to be sorted and I think the Midland Railway had plans to fix it until WW1 and Grouping occurred so it's been a known problem for some time so the entire infrastructure could be changed about at Park Square with the City Centre Emission Zone now present meaning it's deterring traffic from the Parkway. The city is also basically breaking out of the Ring Road so that needs to be de-congested. Maybe a Tram-Train route to a Park and Ride at Catcliffe could work there.

The Price might be high on it's own but the entire section needs work to de-car the area.

A big digression with the crayons and buckets of money, but to reinvigorate the tram network take a route off Pensitone Road up Rutland Road to the Northern General Hospital, then follow the ring road to rejoin the Meadowhall tram route.

This is never likely to happen so is uncosted (massive) and no detailed survey of topography has been completed - although also linking to the Penistone line at Neepsend would be worth investigating but challenging in that regard.. But I know a lot of people would use a link between the two major Sheffield hospitals avoiding the city centre. However the money likely to be spent on feasibility studies might be better spent

On priorities if there's a billion or so to spare resolving congestion and the choke points going north, at Midland station itself and the route south would bring better all round benefits than reopening most of closed lines.

 

[Iskra]

After emailing the local MP for an update:

Thank you for taking the time to write to Miriam Cates MP regarding the Stocksbridge Railway line, and your request for an update with regards to the bid for the restoration of a passenger service along this line.

Miriam is seeking a meeting with the Rail minister to discuss the Stocksbridge Railway line bid and to request an update.

We are aware, however, that there is an ongoing review taking place by the Department for Transport, following the submission of a business case in Autumn 2022.

Whilst you note that the railway line may now be being used to a lesser amount than it has been previously, she has asked that I reassure you that the introduction of a passenger service would require the replacement of the track anyway, and the current usage won’t have an impact upon this.

As ever, Miriam is committed to seeking public transport improvements for all of her constituents, and she asked that I once again share her thanks for taking the time to enquire on this matter.

With very best wishes

Lisa Hancock
Senior Caseworker

Office of Miriam Cates MP
Member of Parliament for Penistone & Stocksbridge

Thanks for sharing

 

[matt]

Thread reopened for @Iskra to post an update

 

[Iskra]

Thank you!

It seems passenger services are still on the agenda, for Labour at least, along with a number of other projects in South Yorkshire.

Sheffield Labour announces transport vision including better cycling routes, buses, trains and trams

Labour is urging other political parties to back its vision for transport as Sheffield Council develops a new strategy.

www.thestar.co.uk

Sheffield Labour announces transport vision including better cycling routes, buses, trains and trams​

Labour is urging other political parties to back its vision for transport as Sheffield Council develops a new strategy.

By Molly Williams
Published 31st Aug 2023, 15:37 BST
Updated 31st Aug 2023, 15:37 BST


It wants to cut congestion and make journeys more affordable and safer and believes an ambitious strategy will attract investment from the private sector and national government.
Plans include expanding the tram network, reopening rail lines, bringing buses and trams back under public control, improving cycling and walking routes particularly with segregated cycle paths, tackling congestion, and more 20mph zones.
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Rail plans include reopening lines to Stocksbridge, as well as along the Sheaf Valley and the Barrow Hill line through south-east Sheffield, with the potential for new stations including at Beighton. They also want to restore the direct rail link between Sheffield and Manchester airport.

Cllr Ben Miskell. Labour is urging other political parties to back its vision for transport as Sheffield Council develops a new strategy.











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The party will propose these plans in a motion put forward by councillors Ben Miskell and Craig Gamble Pugh at a full council meeting next Wednesday, September 6.


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Coun Miskell said: “The people of Sheffield need a transport system that gets them from A-to-B quickly, safely and affordably. Upgrading our transport infrastructure is essential to grow Sheffield’s economy, tackle congestion, reduce emissions, improve air quality and improve physical health.
“There needs to be a firm plan to tackle congestion across the city, with a focus on hotspots, such as in parts of south-east Sheffield.
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“Our ambitious plans come from listening to the people of Sheffield. As part of the development of the new transport strategy we want to see public consultation and involvement.”


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The ideas put forward in the motion are either already in the works or have been mooted for some time.
For example, Oliver Coppard, mayor of South Yorkshire, is progressing work on bus franchising and bringing the trams back under public control.
Louise Haigh, MP for Sheffield Heeley and shadow secretary for transport, said: “In the middle of a cost of living crisis and a climate crisis, it’s more important than ever that we have a decent, affordable and accessible public transport system and it is fantastic that Sheffield Labour have the vision to deliver this.