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Should the Wales and Borders franchise be branded differently e.g. 'Wales & Borders'?

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CambrianCoast

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On balance, I do feel Wales and Borders would have been a stronger name for services. This messy jumble-sale of brand identities between KeolisAmey Operations, Transport for Wales Services and Transport for Wales is a great example of poor marketing strategy, making clarity of message and a unified approach look chaotic and counterintuitive. Does anyone know whether the operational name “Wales and Borders” is possibly still attached to National Express, which maybe could explain why it’s not used commercially?
 
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yorkie

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Re-writing history ?
I don't know what you mean by this. I do not think anyone is suggesting "re-writing" anything?

Surely the name "Wales & Borders" would be more accurate, descriptive and more inclusive? I can't think of any reasons why it shouldn't be called this, but if you can think of any, feel free to post them...
 

CambrianCoast

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I don't know what you mean by this. I do not think anyone is suggesting "re-writing" anything?

Surely the name "Wales & Borders" would be more accurate, descriptive and more inclusive? I can't think of any reasons why it shouldn't be called this, but if you can think of any, feel free to post them...

Yes I agree. Cymru a’r Gororau / Wales and Borders would be far more inclusive from a passenger perspective and also much more palatable from a branding / marketing perspective rather than the current hotchpotch. Cue DfT / Welsh Government political wrangling...
 

transmanche

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This messy jumble-sale of brand identities between KeolisAmey Operations, Transport for Wales Services and Transport for Wales is a great example of poor marketing strategy
How many of those areactually 'customer-facing' brands?

Compare with London Overground: Arriva Rail London operate it on behalf of TfL - but the only brand that passengers see is London Overground. Most likely the majority of customers have no idea that the operator changed from LOROL to ARL in 2016.

The same will be true of TfW Rail. Passengers won't care (or even know) that it's operated by KeolisAmey. All they will see is the TfW brand.

(Personally, I would have preferred that they took over the Taith brand instead of using Transport for Wales/Trafnidiaeth Cymru. It's a nice short Welsh word meaning 'journey' that's relatively easy for English-speakers to pronounce. )
 

CambrianCoast

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How many of those areactually 'customer-facing' brands?

Compare with London Overground: Arriva Rail London operate it on behalf of TfL - but the only brand that passengers see is London Overground. Most likely the majority of customers have no idea that the operator changed from LOROL to ARL in 2016.

The same will be true of TfW Rail. Passengers won't care (or even know) that it's operated by KeolisAmey. All they will see is the TfW brand.

(Personally, I would have preferred that they took over the Taith brand instead of using Transport for Wales/Trafnidiaeth Cymru. It's a nice short Welsh word meaning 'journey' that's relatively easy for English-speakers to pronounce. )

Those names legally have to be customer facing from a GDPR perspective. Take a look at the website and their social media feeds, it’s quite confusing!
 

LNW-GW Joint

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The Marches would be a more historic name, with resonance both sides of the border.
After all, Ludlow/Llwydlo used to be the capital of Wales.
Wales & Borders was on the mockups of the new trains' livery at the original announcement, so it might yet appear somewhere.
As the franchise gets a large chunk of its revenue from services in England, it's important to recognise that in the branding.
 

PR1Berske

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I was under the impression that "Wales and Borders" had been stipulated as the franchise name. I stand corrected.

I think that "Transport for Wales" has its benefits. There's something very corporate about it, in a good way. The image and branding is, as the saying goes ,"on point", and I think the distinctive look will make passengers very much aware of the change that has been made and the promise of improvements in the future. It's certainly a clean break to go from "Arriva Trains Wales" to "Trafnidiaeth Cymru", and even the least 'industry-aware' passenger will notice that change.

There are certainly arguments from the other side, though. It might seem very out of place in, say, Crewe, to find "Transport for Wales" taking you to Manchester Airport, or in Bidston rattling through central Wirral towns.

If the Welsh Government have been so eager to stamp this identity on the new franchise from the start, including the font and colour scheme, they have to take ownership of the good and bad. There may well be times when TrC/TfW slip up, suffer timetable problems, fall short of expectations. The blame will go to the name on the side of the train, from most passengers and in most media outlets. That means Keolis/Amey are somewhat shielded from immediate criticism. How long the Welsh Government will allow this to happen is the next big question.
 

The Prisoner

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Welsh Assembly Govt will quite right to want to protect their language and shout out about what they are trying to achieve with this franchise, but the application of the brand and use of dual language outside of Wales needs looking at.

I’d love to know what the motivation for improvement on the services operated entirely outside of Wales is and Runcorn East being a Transport for Wales station just shows up the franchise as being flawed - 70pc of users I’d guess go to Manchester or Warrington from there and will never take a service to Wales.

Putting those 70s underground trains on the Chester - Crewe line sums up their views on what they are bothered about east of the border....
 

PR1Berske

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Welsh Assembly Govt will quite right to want to protect their language and shout out about what they are trying to achieve with this franchise, but the application of the brand and use of dual language outside of Wales needs looking at.

I’d love to know what the motivation for improvement on the services operated entirely outside of Wales is and Runcorn East being a Transport for Wales station just shows up the franchise as being flawed - 70pc of users I’d guess go to Manchester or Warrington from there and will never take a service to Wales.

Putting those 70s underground trains on the Chester - Crewe line sums up their views on what they are bothered about east of the border....

Runcorn East is an oddity, though alternative options to TrC/TfW ownership/services are pretty scarce. It isn't easy to transfer Runcorn East to Merseyrail, let alone Northern. I accept that seeing Welsh-language signs in Runcorn is a tad incongruous. The response back to that, though, is one of branding and corporate identity as much as anything else. TfW not using Welsh at Runcorn could open up the argument that Welsh should also be removed from other stations, creating division within the franchise where , ideally, no division should exist.
 

6Gman

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Runcorn East is an oddity, though alternative options to TrC/TfW ownership/services are pretty scarce. It isn't easy to transfer Runcorn East to Merseyrail, let alone Northern. I accept that seeing Welsh-language signs in Runcorn is a tad incongruous. The response back to that, though, is one of branding and corporate identity as much as anything else. TfW not using Welsh at Runcorn could open up the argument that Welsh should also be removed from other stations, creating division within the franchise where , ideally, no division should exist.

Is the bilingualism in Runcorn stationary or mobile?
 

PR1Berske

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Is the bilingualism in Runcorn stationary or mobile?
The most recent time I passed through Runcorn East, some....two months ago, I think...the Arriva posters were bilingual. The name plate of the station was in English only.
 

PHILIPE

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I don't know what you mean by this. I do not think anyone is suggesting "re-writing" anything?

Surely the name "Wales & Borders" would be more accurate, descriptive and more inclusive? I can't think of any reasons why it shouldn't be called this, but if you can think of any, feel free to post them...


We have already had a Wales and Borders immediately prior to ATW taking over in 2003. Would be repeating itself but no reason it couldn't have been brought back.
 

Chester1

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Runcorn East is an oddity, though alternative options to TrC/TfW ownership/services are pretty scarce. It isn't easy to transfer Runcorn East to Merseyrail, let alone Northern. I accept that seeing Welsh-language signs in Runcorn is a tad incongruous. The response back to that, though, is one of branding and corporate identity as much as anything else. TfW not using Welsh at Runcorn could open up the argument that Welsh should also be removed from other stations, creating division within the franchise where , ideally, no division should exist.

Northern will be serving it with the Chester-Victoria-Leeds service when it is eventually started and could potentially takeover station management in the future as they will be running half of its services.
 

Hadders

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I think it's disgraceful that Chester is branded with Transport for Wales.

Can you just imaging the furore if Newport was branded with Transport for England.....

Very insensitive.
 

Emyr

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I think it's disgraceful that Chester is branded with Transport for Wales.

Can you just imaging the furore if Newport was branded with Transport for England.....

Very insensitive.

Or British Rail.
 

Parallel

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I really don't see the issue. All these stations were branded as "Arriva Trains Wales" for the last 15 years with no mention of W&B.
 

pt_mad

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I think it's disgraceful that Chester is branded with Transport for Wales.

Can you just imaging the furore if Newport was branded with Transport for England.....

Very insensitive.

And presumably Shrewsbury will be branded TfW too? Unless they put on the station signs 'operated by TfW' which sounds a bit more viable than 'Transport for Wales' branded stations in England? Some of which are the terminus and start of some routes completely in England and some of their customer base won't even live or cross over into Wales? Shrewsbury and Chester in particular, possibly Hereford?
 
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Envoy

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I don’t like the name ‘Transport for Wales’. How can it be called this when large chunks of the franchise also serve England? If ‘Transport for England’ was appearing on trains in Wales along with branding on stations, all hell would break out. I would like to see ‘Wales & Borders’ as the name for the operation.
 

tiptoptaff

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Personally, I like it, as it seems to be annoying so many across the Dyke <D<D
 

tbtc

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We have already had a Wales and Borders immediately prior to ATW taking over in 2003. Would be repeating itself but no reason it couldn't have been brought back.

That's why I think it should be brought back - it's a geographically accurate name for the franchise area that has some history (being the name for the pre-Arriva operation).

If National Express own the copyright then you could always rename if Borders & Wales instead (in the interests of alphabetical order).

(yes some TOCs operate to/from stations outside the area that they are named after but it's not like ScotRail actually manage Carlisle, or EMT manage Norwich or Northern manage Nottingham - whereas Transport For Wales are obviously managing stations outwith that area).
 
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