Should the Wales and Borders franchise be branded differently e.g. 'Wales & Borders'?

[Dai Corner]

They must have had surely? You're not going to get a franchise launched and on day two using that brand name without the DFT being fully aware of the name you were going to use beforehand.

The DfT weren't involved in negotiating the Franchise. It was awarded to Keolis Amey by Transport for Wales on behalf of the Welsh Government.

 

[pt_mad]

The DfT weren't involved in negotiating the Franchise. It was awarded to Keolis Amey by Transport for Wales on behalf of the Welsh Government.

But the DFT are still likely to be told the brand name the franchise is using before launch day. They are not going to let a franchise take over at least three major English stations without at least wanting to know what they're calling themselves.

If they have, then there's a big problem somewhere. Seems highly unlikely though.

 

[Dai Corner]

But the DFT are still likely to be told the brand name the franchise is using before launch day. They are not going to let a franchise take over at least three major English stations without at least wanting to know what they're calling themselves.

If they have, then there's a big problem somewhere. Seems highly unlikely though.

There's no requirement as far as I can see for the DfT to approve or even be informed of the brand name. It's left to the Welsh Government to ensure "the Brand Guidelines developed and issued to the Franchisee ..... (excluding those for Wales-only services), shall recognise and demonstrate the cross-border nature of the Franchise... "

Id just like to know how a brand name that doesn't appear to conform to that requirement got through the selection process.

 

[transmanche]

Whether ATW have migrated data to Keolis is another matter altogether and if this has happened without sufficient notice to customers then that certainly would be a potential GDPR violation.

AFAIUI, customer accounts have not been migrated to the new operator.

ATW sent two emails to customers in recent weeks, advising that their website would be closing and that customers would need to create a new account on the new operator's website.

(I suspect that GDPR is the reason that accounts have not been migrated: that someone decided it would just be simpler from a compliance perspective to get customers to create new accounts instead.)

 

[pt_mad]

There's no requirement as far as I can see for the DfT to approve or even be informed of the brand name. It's left to the Welsh Government to ensure "the Brand Guidelines developed and issued to the Franchisee ..... (excluding those for Wales-only services), shall recognise and demonstrate the cross-border nature of the Franchise... "

Id just like to know how a brand name that doesn't appear to conform to that requirement got through the selection process.

Ok, so maybe we could say the DFT may not have been told by TfW which seems unlikely. But even if that were the case, the DFT would have asked. There is no way they (DFT) are going to let a new operator take over control of Chester and Shrewsbury and advertise themselves to the public without knowing their brand name.

I suppose it's possible that the DFT may have been made aware and could potentially have put in an objection but to no avail? Could this perhaps be the case?

 

[transmanche]

Yes, posted that here . I wonder if anyone is up for making a complaint?

What have you got to complain about? Unless you have seen the "Brand Guidelines developed with and issued to the Franchisee on trains, stations and for marketing material and publicity" and find that they are non-compliant, then I can't see the basis for making a complaint...

 

[Dai Corner]

Ok, so maybe we could say the DFT may not have been told by TfW which seems unlikely. But even if that were the case, the DFT would have asked. There is no way they (DFT) are going to let a new operator take over control of Chester and Shrewsbury and advertise themselves to the public without knowing their brand name.

I suppose it's possible that the DFT may have been made aware and could potentially have put in an objection but to no avail? Could this perhaps be the case?

I don't think the DfT now have any jurisdiction over Chester, Shrewsbury or other English stations managed by the Franchisee.


They might have known and decided to turn a blind eye? Or they may have only just found out and asked TfW what's going on? I sincerely hope TfW don't rebrand all their English stations and cross-border trains and then have to change them!

 

[transmanche]

I sincerely hope TfW don't rebrand all their English stations and cross-border trains and then have to change them!

I don't foresee that as an issue to worry about. KeolisAmey has two years to re-brand key hub stations (such as Shrewsbury and Chester), three years to re-brand 'standard' stations and up to five years to re-brand certain 'low usage' stations.

 

[pt_mad]

I don't foresee that as an issue to worry about. KeolisAmey has two years to re-brand key hub stations (such as Shrewsbury and Chester), three years to re-brand 'standard' stations and up to five years to re-brand certain 'low usage' stations.

So Chester and Shrewsbury are only due to be branded as Transport for Wales for 13 years?

It'll soon fly by...

 

[Dai Corner]

So Chester and Shrewsbury are only due to be branded as Transport for Wales for 13 years?

It'll soon fly by...

I imagine the brand will continue even if the franchisee changes in future. Unless it all goes horribly wrong and a rebrand is decided upon! Then again we might have The Peoples' Railway aka British Rail Mk2!

 

[PHILIPE]

"Wales and Cross Border" as a suggestion

 

[Stevec101]

That be the case, will they be transferring management of Shrewsbury, Hereford and Chester to one of the English Tocs?

Watch this space. I already suspect work between Shrewsbury and Crewe could be switched to West Midlands trains. The Cardiff to Manchester could easily become Cardiff to Crewe just over the border. The Manchester path is extremely sought after. I'm sure London North western would love it

 

[PR1Berske]

I imagine the brand will continue even if the franchisee changes in future. Unless it all goes horribly wrong and a rebrand is decided upon! Then again we might have The Peoples' Railway aka British Rail Mk2!

The latter if Labour wines in 2020

 

[mmh]

Christ this seems complicated - cant we just have one over arching banner such as WelshRail or Welsh Trains/Trenau Cymraeg?
?

How would that placate people complaining about stations being branded as "Welsh"? The obvious solution to that problem - if it is one, I'm unconvinced anyone really cares - is just don't brand stations. Nobody really cares who manages a station.

Somehow people have managed for years hearing and seeing the word Wales, and Welsh signage on trains.

A language point, "Trenau Cymraeg" doesn't work, Cymraeg means the Welsh language but not something of Wales, it's only a noun unlike "English" which is a noun and adjective depending on use.

Coming up with company or organisation names that work well in multiple languages isn't straightforward, especially if the languages have different word ordering and grammar structures. They've made a better stab at it than Arriva did.

(I expect this post may be deleted by a moderator, as apparently pointing out the complications of naming something in two languages is off topic for, err, a conversation about what the Welsh franchise should be called, as my last one was. Hohum)

 

[Dai Corner]

The latter if Labour wines in 2020

Or if we end up with Jacob Rees-Mogg as PM we might have the Big Four and Wales carved up between the GWR and LMS

 

[DarloRich]

How would that placate people complaining about stations being branded as "Welsh"? The obvious solution to that problem - if it is one, I'm unconvinced anyone really cares - is just don't brand stations. Nobody really cares who manages a station.

Somehow people have managed for years hearing and seeing the word Wales, and Welsh signage on trains.

Agreed. I don't see the issue. Scotrail run into England without the people of Carlisle keeling over.

A language point, "Trenau Cymraeg" doesn't work, Cymraeg means the Welsh language but not something of Wales, it's only a noun unlike "English" which is a noun and adjective depending on use.

Coming up with company or organisation names that work well in multiple languages isn't straightforward, especially if the languages have different word ordering and grammar structures. They've made a better stab at it than Arriva did.

(I expect this post may be deleted by a moderator, as apparently pointing out the complications of naming something in two languages is off topic for, err, a conversation about what the Welsh franchise should be called, as my last one was. Hohum)

No idea about Welsh. Just looked it up on the Internet. I should have stuck to a English.

 

[6Gman]

A language point, "Trenau Cymraeg" doesn't work, Cymraeg means the Welsh language but not something of Wales, it's only a noun unlike "English" which is a noun and adjective depending on use.

Coming up with company or organisation names that work well in multiple languages isn't straightforward, especially if the languages have different word ordering and grammar structures. They've made a better stab at it than Arriva did.

Cymraeg can be an adjective, but only in relation to the language. In relation to a Welsh characteristic I believe it should be Cymreig.

So "Trenau Cymreig" would work.

I think.

 

[Cardiff123]

The Transport for Wales brand is here to stay. The idea behind TfW is that it becomes the overarching public transport umbrella brand in Wales. Whether it's private companies operating rail or bus contracts on TfW's behalf, as we see with Keolis Amey and TfW Rail, or TfW operating the services themselves as a public body, eventually Welsh Govt see TfW being the single public transport operator throughout Wales.
The idea being that this can lead to a fully integrated public transport system with bus, rail, bus rapid transit, and light rail systems all operating together under TfW.

Which is why the new franchise is branded as 'TfW Rail'. Presumably in future there will be a TfW bus network complementing it.
It's all about building brand awareness and bringing all public transport in Wales together under a single branded entity.

 

[mmh]

Agreed. I don't see the issue. Scotrail run into England without the people of Carlisle keeling over.

Exactly. I just don't understand why it's a sudden issue for some. I didn't get annoyed by the West Yorkshire Metro, Network South East or Strathclyde liveried trains you used to see all the time in Wales.

No idea about Welsh. Just looked it up on the Internet. I should have stuck to a English.

Perfectly understandable, I wasn't criticising you! Many people with better Welsh than my pidgin version argue about what's "correct" or not!

 

[mmh]

Cymraeg can be an adjective, but only in relation to the language. In relation to a Welsh characteristic I believe it should be Cymreig.

So "Trenau Cymreig" would work.

I think.

Thanks, I was thinking that. But also wondered if "au" should change it to Gymreig - I didn't say that cos I didn't understand mutations after vowels well at all when I was supposed to learn them. Somehow the consonant ones seemed easier, but I'm sure I'm wrong on those too.

Back to trains, and Arriva, I remember arguments online when ATW changed the sign at Llandudno to "Croeso i Gorsaf Llandudno". It felt wrong to me but I don't really know why. Seemed like "i'r gorsaf" or "i'r orsaf" sounded more right, despite "i Gymru" obviously being right.

I'm rambling, apologies. Languages are hard!

 

[Dai Corner]

Exactly. I just don't understand why it's a sudden issue for some. I didn't get annoyed by the West Yorkshire Metro, Network South East or Strathclyde liveried trains you used to see all the time in Wales.

I'm part English, part Welsh and living in Wales. The branding doesn't bother me particularly but I'm curious why it doesn't acknowledge the 'borders' .

I'm sure there would be protests from some quarters if, say, Newport and Wrexham were branded 'Transport for England' and managed from Swindon and Liverpool though.

 

[tbtc]

Agreed. I don't see the issue. Scotrail run into England without the people of Carlisle keeling over

To the best of my knowledge, ScotRail don't actually manage any stations in England.

Nor do ScotRail run any services solely within England.

This is more akin to East Midlands Trains managing Liverpool Lime Street and Norwich and plastering their "East Midlands" branding over those stations (which are obviously far outside the geographical area).

Maybe one day we'll have Transport for Yorkshire branding up at Darlington station... or MerseyRail branding of Wigan station or TfGM branding of Southport station - am sure that'd go down well.

 

[DarloRich]

To the best of my knowledge, ScotRail don't actually manage any stations in England.

Nor do ScotRail run any services solely within England.

This is more akin to East Midlands Trains managing Liverpool Lime Street and Norwich and plastering their "East Midlands" branding over those stations (which are obviously far outside the geographical area).

Maybe one day we'll have Transport for Yorkshire branding up at Darlington station... or MerseyRail branding of Wigan station or TfGM branding of Southport station - am sure that'd go down well.

wow what a massive issue. That is what we have to worry about is it?

As for Darlo it is 5 miles from the county border with North Yorkshire. Hardly worth wibbling over.

 

[mmh]

Maybe one day we'll have Transport for Yorkshire branding up at Darlington station... or MerseyRail branding of Wigan station or TfGM branding of Southport station - am sure that'd go down well.

Who cares? Why do you care? What difference does it make?

 

[yorkie]

Can we try to stay on topic please? Thanks

 

[krus_aragon]

Back to trains, and Arriva, I remember arguments online when ATW changed the sign at Llandudno to "Croeso i Gorsaf Llandudno". It felt wrong to me but I don't really know why. Seemed like "i'r gorsaf" or "i'r orsaf" sounded more right, despite "i Gymru" obviously being right.

I'm rambling, apologies. Languages are hard!

One thing that's moving the goalposts on you is that the G in "Gorsaf" (station) is part of the root word, whereas the G in "Gymru" has been mutated from "Cymru".

A soft mutation is triggered after "i" (to), which causes nine letters to change, including c->g, and "g" itself disappears, hence gorsaf->orsaf. So you were right to think that "Croeso i Gorsaf Llandudno" wasn't quite right.* If the "Croeso i" bit wasn't there, then "Gorsaf Llandudno" would have been correct, as mutations can only happen after particular words.

On the issue of "i" versus "i'r", the first means "to", the second is a contraction of "i yr", which means "to the". In a similar mode to English, you don't need to specify "the" if you're also naming the station: "Welcome to the Llandudno station" doesn't sound right, compared to "Welcome to Llandudno station".

Yes, languages are tricky: just a few years ago, I remember being surprised to learn that German follows a completely different approach to capitalisation of words.

-----

I recall discussions on "a good name" for the railways of Wales going back several years on this forum: it's not an easy nut to crack if you want it both bilingual and catchy. The best name I came up with was "Rheilffyrdd Cambria/Cambrian Railways", which would be quite in fitting with the "retro/heritage" names that currently seem to be in fashion, but that could unfortunately be seen as stamping all over a certain heritage railway in Oswestry. Plus the Welsh Government clearly want to form a more encompassing public transport brand, like TfL.

I am surprised that the "Wales & Borders" name isn't more prominent, after all the promotional material (and franchise-related agreements) suggested it would be. But I don't have much to suggest on that matter other than waiting and seeing if DfT kicks up a fuss (hence why I've not posted anything in-thread before now).


*The mutation of so many place names after "i" causes a headache for sign makers, as if you want to use the popular "Welcome to" (Croeso i) preamble, the placename would mutate after "to", as it does in "Croeso i Cymru". This makes things awkward for places with just one name in both languages (such as Prestatyn or Bangor) as you either have to put the same name up twice (mutated once) or force a mutation into the English, and confuse lots of visitors. A good workaround I've seen is to insert "tref" (town), "pentref" (village), etc. into the preamble, e.g. "Croeso i dref Prestatyn": the word "tref" gets mutated, doesn't cause a mutation in and of itself, and Prestatyn remains unmutated. You can then get fancy and do things like "Croeso i dref Prestatyn welcomes you" over three lines, and so on.

 

[tbtc]

Who cares? Why do you care? What difference does it make?

Because the Wales & Borders franchise was set up with a requirement that the stations it manages in England will have branding that recognises and demonstrates the cross-border nature of the Franchise.

Instead everything seems to be "Wales".

Now, if you can cater to the tiny minority of passengers on the new franchise who speak Welsh as a first language (and that's not in doubt) then it seems odd not to cater for the (larger) minority of W&B passengers who are in England (given that the franchise manages Chester/ Shrewsbury etc).

Almost like there's some kind of petty politics at play, which I'm sure would never be the case...

 

[krus_aragon]

Because the Wales & Borders franchise was set up with a requirement that the stations it manages in England will have branding that recognises and demonstrates the cross-border nature of the Franchise.

Instead everything seems to be "Wales".

Now, if you can cater to the tiny minority of passengers on the new franchise who speak Welsh as a first language (and that's not in doubt) then it seems odd not to cater for the (larger) minority of W&B passengers who are in England (given that the franchise manages Chester/ Shrewsbury etc).

Almost like there's some kind of petty politics at play, which I'm sure would never be the case...

There's certainly been some politics at play, as testified by the delay in the DfT agreeing the terms by which they handed the franchise keys to the WG.

I think it might be fairer to say that the apparent name of the new franchise doesn't represent the W&B passengers in England, as oppose to not catering for them (as the franchise clearly does cater for them: they're running trains). The previous franchisee's name didn't represent them very well either, but we were led to believe that the new franchisee would have to.

Something's going on here, but I'm not in a position to stick my oar in and say what. I hope things will become clearer in the coming weeks.

 

[Envoy]

I note that the Welsh is written first and bolder than the English on the new branding. May I suggest that this is reversed being as English is the most widely spoken language on Earth?

 

[pemma]

Agreed. I don't see the issue. Scotrail run into England without the people of Carlisle keeling over.

No idea about Welsh. Just looked it up on the Internet. I should have stuck to a English.

To the best of my knowledge, ScotRail don't actually manage any stations in England.

Nor do ScotRail run any services solely within England.

This is more akin to East Midlands Trains managing Liverpool Lime Street and Norwich and plastering their "East Midlands" branding over those stations (which are obviously far outside the geographical area).

Maybe one day we'll have Transport for Yorkshire branding up at Darlington station... or MerseyRail branding of Wigan station or TfGM branding of Southport station - am sure that'd go down well.

I think comparisons between counties or other franchises are red herrings.

Firstly, through Scotrail services which continue beyond Carlisle (the first major station in England) are joint services with Northern. 'Transport for Wales' services can run for over 100 miles running before they reach the Welsh border, while some services never enter Wales at all. For it to be like Scotrail, Northern/LNR would need to take over Manchester/Birmingham bound services at Chester/Shrewsbury/Hereford and those interchange stations would be in Northern/LNR branding. I also don't think Scotrail plaster the Gaelic language all over English stations they serve - not that having bilingual signs at interchange stations used by a lot of Welsh people is a bad thing but isn't really appropriate for little rural stations in Cheshire, Shropshire and on the Wirral. (Note having irrelevant information on signage makes it more difficult to read for those with learning disabilities.)

While there have been wars between counties within England in the past they are all now part of the same country, Scotland and Wales are both separate countries to England even if we are all part of the UK. Although, imagine if when MTL won the Northern Spirit franchise they had not only put 'Merseyside Transport Limited' branding all over the North East and Yorkshire stations instead of Northern Spirit and local PTE branding but used Scouse dialect on station notices.

What is strange is the use of a special .Wales website domain. We have .uk domains and Wales, like England, is part of the UK so what's wrong with a .uk one?