Should the Wales and Borders franchise be branded differently e.g. 'Wales & Borders'?

[Honest Ross]

I note that the Welsh is written first and bolder than the English on the new branding. May I suggest that this is reversed being as English is the most widely spoken language on Earth?

You could suggest it; but it would be ludicrous to do so.

Welsh train system uses countries own language before a second language.

Shocking.

 

[pemma]

You could suggest it; but it would be ludicrous to do so.

Welsh train system uses countries own language before a second language.

Shocking.

Yet the 'country's own language' is less widely spoken than English, even in Wales. I recently saw an American program about Wales and when the presenter was talking to quite a few Welsh speakers they were all of the opinion the Welsh language is dying out, which they said was a shame but also didn't think it was sensible to force the Welsh language on people.

 

[Honest Ross]

What is strange is the use of a special .Wales website domain. We have .uk domains and Wales, like England, is part of the UK so what's wrong with a .uk one?

Plenty of welsh firms use .wales as a domain.

What is wrong with a Welsh organisation using a Wales inspired domain?

I hope your fingers don’t hurt too much for typing those few extra characters.

Honestly, some people’s complaints here are absolutely ridiculous.

Yet the 'country's own language' is less widely spoken than English, even in Wales. I recently saw an American program about Wales and when the presenter was talking to quite a few Welsh speakers they were all of the opinion the Welsh language is dying out, which they said was a shame but also didn't think it was sensible to force the Welsh language on people.

Well they would be wrong to say that, wouldn’t they?

Welsh Govt. contract ensures countries home language is used throughout. Shocking.

Also, you’ll be amazed how many pick up welsh phrases and the like from the use of incidental welsh.

For those who don’t wish to speak/speak Welsh, then the translation is underneath.

Shouldn’t be too taxing to move those eyeballs down just slightly.

 

[Cardiff123]

Instead everything seems to be "Wales".

Like it was for 15 years under 'Arriva Trains Wales'?

This has turned into a really unpleasant anti-Welsh thread.

If Welsh Govt had really wanted to wind up the Tories in Westminster and the DfT they could have branded it 'The People's Railway for Wales'.
Seriously guys, get a grip. If a train turns up on time, is comfortable, modern and has plenty of seats, no one gives a f*** what it's branded as.

 

[PaulHarding150]

I note that the Welsh is written first and bolder than the English on the new branding. May I suggest that this is reversed being as English is the most widely spoken language on Earth?

In terms of the logo, it's two lines, if you can't find the language you speak/read easily. You've got problems buddy.

Also English is not the most spoken language on Earth. And this is a monolingual Welshman living in Wales telling you that.

I think comparisons between counties or other franchises are red herrings.

What is strange is the use of a special .Wales website domain. We have .uk domains and Wales, like England, is part of the UK so what's wrong with a .uk one?

.Wales are not special. You might think they're rare or a novelty, but that's because they're still fairly new.

A .Wales address has the same number of characters as a .co.uk address. Buy using a .Wales they are omitting the need to use the word Wales in the rest of the address.

I do sometimes think some people complain for the sake of it.

 

[pemma]

Plenty of welsh firms use .wales as a domain.

What is wrong with a Welsh organisation using a Wales inspired domain?

I hope your fingers don’t hurt too much for typing those few extra characters.

Honestly, some people’s complaints here are absolutely ridiculous.

It's a UK franchise serving two countries, not a Welsh franchise.

It's not about how many letters you type it's about how easy the website is to remember - easyjet.com is easy to remember, tfwrail.wales isn't. It's like some idiot in Cardiff has decided make everything sound as Welsh as possible and screw the people who have learning difficulties because Welsh speakers are more important.

 

[pemma]

Well they would be wrong to say that, wouldn’t they?

Welsh Govt. contract ensures countries home language is used throughout. Shocking.

Also, you’ll be amazed how many pick up welsh phrases and the like from the use of incidental welsh.

For those who don’t wish to speak/speak Welsh, then the translation is underneath.

Shouldn’t be too taxing to move those eyeballs down just slightly.

How much knowledge of you have of catering for people with learning disabilities (whether they are a Welsh speaker or not)? If you had any knowledge you'd know you ALWAYS put the most relevant information where the eye is naturally drawn to, not doing that is discriminatory to people with disabilities.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's not about how many letters you type it's about how easy the website is to remember - easyjet.com is easy to remember, tfwrail.wales isn't. It's like some idiot in Cardiff has decided make everything sound as Welsh as possible and screw the people who have learning difficulties because Welsh speakers are more important.

The logical domain would be transportfor.wales, with /rail as a path, I'd say. Mind you it appears someone may have squatted that.

Personally I don't give a monkey's what it's called provided the quality of the service is good, any more than I expect other odd examples like this cause issues elsewhere, e.g. people using DB for a journey within France.

 

[Honest Ross]

It's a UK franchise serving two countries, not a Welsh franchise.

It's not about how many letters you type it's about how easy the website is to remember - easyjet.com is easy to remember, tfwrail.wales isn't. It's like some idiot in Cardiff has decided make everything sound as Welsh as possible and screw the people who have learning difficulties because Welsh speakers are more important.

.Wales wouldn’t be aimed at Welsh speakers, as it’s not Welsh. Lol.

That website is perfectly easy to remember, hopefully you’ll be able to catch up with the rest of us one day.

 

[pemma]

.Wales are not special. You might think they're rare or a novelty, but that's because they're still fairly new.

A .Wales address has the same number of characters as a .co.uk address. Buy using a .Wales they are omitting the need to use the word Wales in the rest of the address.

I do sometimes think some people complain for the sake of it.

But they use the abbreviation for "Transport for Wales" in the rest of the address! If they'd gone for trains.wales then you might have a point as that would be easy to remember and not involving typing letters for Wales twice.

 

[pemma]

.Wales wouldn’t be aimed at Welsh speakers, as it’s not Welsh. Lol.

That website is perfectly easy to remember, hopefully you’ll be able to catch up with the rest of us one day.

I didn't say Welsh speakers, I said they wanted to make everything sound Welsh. Does Welsh Rarebit sound like something which originated in Wales or does it sound like something which originated in English because the word Welsh isn't Welsh?

 

[Dai Corner]

.Wales wouldn’t be aimed at Welsh speakers, as it’s not Welsh. Lol.

That website is perfectly easy to remember, hopefully you’ll be able to catch up with the rest of us one day.

Say "Tee Eff Double You Rail Dot Wales" out loud, then "Transport For Dot Wales" and see which rolls off the tongue most easily and is the more memorable.

 

[Cardiff123]

But they use the abbreviation for "Transport for Wales" in the rest of the address! If they'd gone for trains.wales then you might have a point as that would be easy to remember and not involving typing letters for Wales twice.

Oh wow we can't have English people having to type out 'Wales' twice.

 

[PaulHarding150]

But they use the abbreviation for "Transport for Wales" in the rest of the address! If they'd gone for trains.wales then you might have a point as that would be easy to remember and not involving typing letters for Wales twice.

Sorry OK, I hadn't actually seen the address. I was thinking of addresses like www.gov.wales trains.wales would be better, but tfwrail.wales is still (IMO) better than tfwrail.co.uk or tfwrail.com

 

[Bletchleyite]

Say "Tee Eff Double You Rail Dot Wales" out loud, then "Transport For Dot Wales" and see which rolls off the tongue most easily and is the more memorable.

Problem is someone appears to have domain-squatted transportfor.wales.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

The National Express trademark has lapsed:

https://trademarks.ipo.gov.uk/ipo-tmcase/page/Results/1/UK00002276192

However, TFW has registered a "Cymru a'r Gororau / Wales & Borders" logo:

https://trademarks.ipo.gov.uk/ipo-tmcase/page/Results/1/UK00003335960

as well as the simple wordmark "Wales & Borders":

https://trademarks.ipo.gov.uk/ipo-tmcase/page/Results/1/UK00003335965

 

[Dai Corner]

Problem is someone appears to have domain-squatted transportfor.wales.

Yes, so I see now (missed your previous post) but I was challenging the comment that tfwrail.wales was a good memorable domain name.

 

[pemma]

Like it was for 15 years under 'Arriva Trains Wales'?

Arriva Trains is not Welsh though, so Arriva Trains Wales suggested it was the division of a British train company which covered Wales, even if it wasn't the ideal name for the franchise. We also have Arriva Buses Wales running some services in Cheshire but hardly anyone notices the Wales bit as they notice the Arriva logo and colour, rather than what division of Arriva the bus belongs to.

 

[PR1Berske]

I note that the Welsh is written first and bolder than the English on the new branding. May I suggest that this is reversed being as English is the most widely spoken language on Earth?

A thought occurs to me. Will the English be more prominent in England, the Welsh more so in Wales, satisfying the franchise demands to distinguish between the two areas or service?

 

[tbtc]

Like it was for 15 years under 'Arriva Trains Wales'?

This has turned into a really unpleasant anti-Welsh thread.

If Welsh Govt had really wanted to wind up the Tories in Westminster and the DfT they could have branded it 'The People's Railway for Wales'.
Seriously guys, get a grip. If a train turns up on time, is comfortable, modern and has plenty of seats, no one gives a f*** what it's branded as.

I think you'd have to be fairly thin skinned to treat this thread as being "anti-Welsh"... it's a thread trying to work out why a new franchise is failing to implement branding that it only recently signed up to.

I'm not bothered about a franchise that started in 2004, I'm not fussed about how we treat the 5% of Welsh people who only speak Welsh, I'm not arguing the toss about domain names - I'm certainly not bothered about petty politicians dreaming up ways to "wind up the Tories" (though I'm sure some people get their petty kicks from such things) - I just think that the new franchise is getting off on the wrong foot and that this doesn't bode well for the other commitments to the "and Borders" part of the franchise. Not going well so far.

 

[Cardiff123]

I think you'd have to be fairly thin skinned to treat this thread as being "anti-Welsh"... it's a thread trying to work out why a new franchise is failing to implement branding that it only recently signed up to.

I'm not bothered about a franchise that started in 2004, I'm not fussed about how we treat the 5% of Welsh people who only speak Welsh, I'm not arguing the toss about domain names - I'm certainly not bothered about petty politicians dreaming up ways to "wind up the Tories" (though I'm sure some people get their petty kicks from such things) - I just think that the new franchise is getting off on the wrong foot and that this doesn't bode well for the other commitments to the "and Borders" part of the franchise. Not going well so far.

Seriously, it's not going well because two trains are running around in red and white colours without the words 'and Borders' written on them?
98% of the fleet are currently running around in ATW colours with no branding at all.
It's not going well because you've got some stickers at English stations that don't have 'and Borders' on them?
Answer this honestly: do the public care?

This week is the first time many people will have heard of TfW. They are building up their brand. Give them a break.

 

[Honest Ross]

I think you'd have to be fairly thin skinned to treat this thread as being "anti-Welsh"... it's a thread trying to work out why a new franchise is failing to implement branding that it only recently signed up to.

I'm not bothered about a franchise that started in 2004, I'm not fussed about how we treat the 5% of Welsh people who only speak Welsh, I'm not arguing the toss about domain names - I'm certainly not bothered about petty politicians dreaming up ways to "wind up the Tories" (though I'm sure some people get their petty kicks from such things) - I just think that the new franchise is getting off on the wrong foot and that this doesn't bode well for the other commitments to the "and Borders" part of the franchise. Not going well so far.

You’d have to be pretty thin skinned to get upset by a train company called Transport for Wales going into England.

 

[Honest Ross]

That should be the case.

I’d say Welsh shouldn’t even be on signage outside of Wales.

 

[pemma]

Just looked through the TfW Rail Twitter replies since the franchise started, it seems they've answered a few hundred tweets directed at them in English and just the one in Welsh so far!

 

[pt_mad]

Like it was for 15 years under 'Arriva Trains Wales'?

This has turned into a really unpleasant anti-Welsh thread.

If Welsh Govt had really wanted to wind up the Tories in Westminster and the DfT they could have branded it 'The People's Railway for Wales'.
Seriously guys, get a grip. If a train turns up on time, is comfortable, modern and has plenty of seats, no one gives a f*** what it's branded as.

I don't think anyone has taken any issue about it having the word Wales in it.

It's probably more that it says for Wales.

I.e. the management are for Wales rather than (for England) as well, yet they manage stations in England who serve thousands of customers making England only journeys.

Having ''for Wales' branding on every station sign on their English stations does seem a little odd we should all be able to admit that.

Even if it was called Transport Wales I don't think that's the same as 'Transport for Wales'.

Scotrail is not like saying Trains for Scotland and then branding Carlisle and Berwick with that name. It just wouldn't make sense.

 

[pemma]

I don't think anyone has taken any issue about it having the word Wales in it.

It's probably more that it says for Wales.

I.e. the management are for Wales rather than (for England) as well, yet they manage stations in England who serve thousands of customers making England only journeys.

Having ''for Wales' branding on every station sign on their English stations does seem a little odd we should all be able to admit that.

Even if it was called Transport Wales I don't think that's the same as 'Transport for Wales'.

Scotrail is not like saying Trains for Scotland and then branding Carlisle and Berwick with that name. It just wouldn't make sense.

Indeed. Many people in Merseyside, Cheshire, Shropshire and North Wales get their electricity from Scottish Power after they acquired MANWEB. Scottish Power sounds strange but a Scottish business acquired the local electricity company. If they called themselves "Electricity for Scotland" that would sound ridiculous!

 

[krus_aragon]

A thought occurs to me. Will the English be more prominent in England, the Welsh more so in Wales, satisfying the franchise demands to distinguish between the two areas or service?

Given that ATW didn't generally use Welsh in their signage at English stations (except for posters that are produced in a single design for every station, and the rolling stock that tends to move from station to station) I'm not sure if TfW will be doing so. I've not been over the border to check what's happening, though.

The received wisdom is that in this sort of situation (where all speakers of the minority language are also speakers of the majority language) it that you want to give priority to the minority language, because people tend to read the first language they can interpret before they can make a conscious decision. If you put the majority language first, then minority speakers will read most (or all) of the majority language before finding the minority language, and effectively read everything twice. If you put things the other way around, and put the minority language first, minority speakers will read it (and can stop there) whereas those than don't speak the language will subconsciously scan ahead looking for the language they can interpret.

 

[pt_mad]

Indeed. Many people in Merseyside, Cheshire, Shropshire and North Wales get their electricity from Scottish Power after they acquired MANWEB. Scottish Power sounds strange but a Scottish business acquired the local electricity company. If they called themselves "Electricity for Scotland" that would sound ridiculous!

Exactly.

Perhaps this could be a solution, change it to simply 'Transport Wales'. Presumably wouldn't be as big a task as changing to Wales and Borders?

 

[Dai Corner]

Exactly.

Perhaps this could be a solution, change it to simply 'Transport Wales'. Presumably wouldn't be as big a task as changing to Wales and Borders?

Does that recognise and demonstrate the cross-border nature of the franchise as mandated in the agreement between the Secretary of State for Transport and the Welsh Government? That's the interesting (though not terribly important) point for me.

 

[pemma]

@Honest Ross I suggest you read the forum rules before you post again, the forum rules on here are much stricter than they are on some forums and as I stated numerous times already you're challenging an accessibility law I referred to, not my opinion.