Should there be an hourly extension of the London-Sheffield service to Leeds?

[LLivery]

Ideally, after the new fleet introduction, should one of the EMR Intercity Sheffield services (ideally the faster one) be extended to Leeds? And should this be pursued by Network Rail and leaders of Northern and East Midlands transport groups?

The purpose wouldn't be for London - Leeds passengers (although I'd try it out), but for the East Mids and Yorkshire connectivity. As well as potentially Rotherham to London. It would also reduce the demand on XC between Derby and Leeds.

 

[hexagon789]

Ideally, after the new fleet introduction, should one of the EMR Intercity Sheffield services (ideally the faster one) be extended to Leeds? And should this be pursued by Network Rail and leaders of Northern and East Midlands transport groups?

The purpose wouldn't be for London - Leeds passengers (although I'd try it out), but for the East Mids and Yorkshire connectivity. As well as potentially Rotherham to London. It would also reduce the demand on XC between Derby and Leeds.

This idea goes back to Midland Mainline days and is what the 9-car Meridians were originally ordered for.

Consequently the SRA pulled the plug and for a while it looked as though the 9-car 222s would never enter service.

As it is, given the much faster half-hourly service from Leeds to London via the ECML, is there demand to run a service via a slower and longer route?

They already withdrew the early/late Leeds workings due to lack of demand and their primary raison d'être - getting HSTs back to Neville Hill - finishing.

 

[zwk500]

In theory it'd be nice to see. However you have 1tph XC running Derby-Leeds and the better option is to make sure they run as double sets before trying to extend more paths through the tricky bit north of Sheffield.

In terms of the market I think 2 IC tph Sheffield-Leeds would be a bit overkill, especially as it would start imposing constraints on the local traffic, as well as potentially causing performance issues. I'd support wiring South Yorks and running semi-fast EMUs between Sheffield and Leeds (with various possible starting points south of Sheffield).

 

[swt_passenger]

It’s been suggested a few times before, but IIRC nobody could see how it could be done.

The new fleet is not sized for operation beyond Sheffield, as has been already mentioned the HSTs had to go to Leeds for maintenance, but even back then the actual passenger service was not a requirement of the franchise spec.

 

[Bartsimho]

Rather than Leeds I would have thought an extension of the fast service to Barnsley would be worth it.
I would have also suggested Huddersfield but the Penistone line is unsuitable and Crigglestone Junction to Horbury Station Junction was cut so no way to run without reversal.
Or a service which extended to Rotherham via Meadowhall Interchange.

 

[LLivery]

I wasn't too sure about the market size, noting Northern to Nottingham has been successful but not rammed. Totally accept the constraints on other traffic, but without XC doubling up, is 2tph really overkill for the two major cities? Of course, double set XCs would be best right now, but if we want better economies in the North, surely 2tph should be the minimum for express trains between Leeds, Sheffield, Manchester and Liverpool?

I do wonder if this is a case induced demand and if the HST extension is a good case study? It was at odd times of the day and crawled through the Midlands. I'm pretty sure the last MML Leeds service I used went via Nottingham (where I jumped off).

I had forgotten MML ordered the 9 car 222s for this - I had moved away from Wellingborough at the time they were being introduced. What a different time!

I'd support wiring South Yorks and running semi-fast EMUs between Sheffield and Leeds (with various possible starting points south of Sheffield).

This would be great to see (as would wiring the Alferton route).

Rather than Leeds I would have thought an extension of the fast service to Barnsley would be worth it.
I would have also suggested Huddersfield but the Penistone line is unsuitable and Crigglestone Junction to Horbury Station Junction was cut so no way to run without reversal.
Or a service which extended to Rotherham via Meadowhall Interchange.

I've thought about both Barnsley and Rotherham. LNER seems to think such extensions are worth it. Of course, Rotherham is difficult, but re-introducing the odd Barnsley would be nice to see.

 

[Neptune]

The purpose wouldn't be for London - Leeds passengers (although I'd try it out), but for the East Mids and Yorkshire connectivity. As well as potentially Rotherham to London. It would also reduce the demand on XC between Derby and Leeds.

Bit in bold. The good news is that there are currently 4tph that achieve this. 1 of the Leeds - London services (stopping at stations such as Retford, Newark & Grantham), 1 x XC service (Chesterfield and Derby), 1 x Leeds - Nottingham service (stations from Sheffield to Notts) and 1 x Leeds - Lincoln service (stations from Sheffield to Lincoln). The only missed major station here is Leicester but this is achievable with single changes at Derby, Nottingham, Chesterfield, Sheffield and such like.

Extending the Sheffield EMR service to Leeds takes up valuable platform space at Leeds with a 5 car unit never mind a 10 car unit which would mean knocking out local services to accommodate them (not that that stops the XC via Leeds through service haters constantly boring us with this suggestion).

 

[thejuggler]

Having once been sent on an EMR St Pancras to Leeds service due to a lineside fire on the ECML it isn't a trip I'd take voluntarily.

 

[cactustwirly]

Having once been sent on an EMR St Pancras to Leeds service due to a lineside fire on the ECML it isn't a trip I'd take voluntarily.

It isn't that much slower than the ECML

 

[LLivery]

Bit in bold. The good news is that there are currently 4tph that achieve this. 1 of the Leeds - London services (stopping at stations such as Retford, Newark & Grantham), 1 x XC service (Chesterfield and Derby), 1 x Leeds - Nottingham service (stations from Sheffield to Notts) and 1 x Leeds - Lincoln service (stations from Sheffield to Lincoln). The only missed major station here is Leicester but this is achievable with single changes at Derby, Nottingham, Chesterfield, Sheffield and such like.

Extending the Sheffield EMR service to Leeds takes up valuable platform space at Leeds with a 5 car unit never mind a 10 car unit which would mean knocking out local services to accommodate them (not that that stops the XC via Leeds through service haters constantly boring us with this suggestion).

Admittedly I was referring to the MML East Mids rather than ECML East Mids. Many of these services are not exactly quick, however. And if it's hourly, connections at the other end may not be very good and, that's not accounting for potential cancellations. I wouldn't want this service over axing others though. But in the future, it would be nice to have.

It isn't that much slower than the ECML

If we use XC timings + fastest hourly EMR you've got 2hrs 40, compared to ~2:20 into King's Cross? Around half hour longer - that's not terrible. But again, it wouldn't be aimed at the Leeds - London passenger. Saying that, if I'm on a budget and the longer journey is well reflected in the price, I'd take it. It's not like it's on a Turbo.

Edit: Leeds - King's Cross timing.

 

[cactustwirly]

Admittedly I was referring to the MML East Mids rather than ECML East Mids. Many of these services are not exactly quick, however. And if it's hourly, connections at the other end may not be very good and, that's not accounting for potential cancellations. I wouldn't want this service over axing others though. But in the future, it would be nice to have.



If we use XC timings + fastest hourly EMR you've got 2hrs 40, compared to 1:45 into King's Cross? An hour longer, but that's not terrible. But again, it wouldn't be aimed at the Leeds - London passenger. Saying that, if I'm on a budget and the longer journey is well reflected in the price, I'd take it. It's not like it's on a Turbo.

I thought London to Leeds was 2:20?

 

[Trainguy34]

I thought London to Leeds was 2:20?

To London:
2:12 to Kings X.
45 Mins Leeds - Sheffield inc stop time at Sheffield
1:58 on the Fast to St P.
2:12(LNER) against 2:43 (XC/EMR)

To Leeds:
2:12 from Kings X.
2:00 on the Fast to Sheffield.
42 Mins Sheffield - Leeds inc stop time at Sheffield.
2:12(LNER) against 2:42(XC/EMR)

For around half an hour difference, if it was more comfortable and/or cheaper, I would happily use EMR from London, especially if I was coming off HS1. If a tourist came off the Eurostar wanting Leeds, they may not know Kings X in next door so would use EMR as it was closer and in the same Station.

 

[adrock1976]

Options I tried out before the Toton Interchange version of HS2 was switched to East Mids Parkway were that the London St Pancras - Nottingham were left as they were (barring an additional call at Bedford for Thameslink interchange all day, as there is space in the timetable to do so).

The Sheffield I had revised to 2tph along the common section to Chesterfield calling Leicester, East Mids Parkway (everything calls at EMD), Derby, Chesterfield, then 1tph to Sheffield via Core, and the other 1tph to York calling Killamarsh & Halfway for Sheffield Supertram (the former Midland Killamarsh West reopened), Rotherham Masborough/Parkway (reopened and/or relocated), Pontefract Baghill, and York.

I also tried running beyond Sheffield to Leeds via both Moorthorpe and via Barnsley. I could not get the Moorthorpe route to work, and the Barnsley route I could not get the departure time at Sheffield to land in the short Northern Leeds workings that run in the opposite half hour to the Nottingham - Leeds. if it had worked out, every second hour would have been the London train with the opposite hour being the short Leeds - Sheffield Northern workings.

 

[YorksLad12]

I wasn't too sure about the market size, noting Northern to Nottingham has been successful but not rammed. Totally accept the constraints on other traffic, but without XC doubling up, is 2tph really overkill for the two major cities? Of course, double set XCs would be best right now, but if we want better economies in the North, surely 2tph should be the minimum for express trains between Leeds, Sheffield, Manchester and Liverpool?

There are four fast trains per hour between Leeds and Manchester, but only one between Leeds and Sheffield. Northern are supposed to be resurrecting the proposed fast local service via the fast route, whoch would probably take the path of this extension.

I've thought about both Barnsley and Rotherham. LNER seems to think such extensions are worth it. Of course, Rotherham is difficult, but re-introducing the odd Barnsley would be nice to see.

A Barnsley extension is a local request. You'd need somewhere to stick it for servicing before the return leg though.

Extending the Sheffield EMR service to Leeds takes up valuable platform space at Leeds with a 5 car unit never mind a 10 car unit which would mean knocking out local services to accommodate them (not that that stops the XC via Leeds through service haters constantly boring us with this suggestion).

Aye. It'll just have to wait until the new T-station platforms are built then...

 

[cle]

It doesn't feel that outrageous to me. And Sheffield may well get a minute or too quicker once it's all wired up... so incrementally more competitive (and less 'analogue') - with different service offerings, pricing (many universities along the route! much more than the lower ECML which is railheads rather than meaningful places) and newer connectivity (Leicester-Leeds, relief of the universally hated XC service, higher likelihood of churn / a seat being sold twice) - I think it might be worth a shot.

Then again, I think the same about St P - Manchester too. That adds Derby-Manchester as well as Leicester.

 

[LLivery]

I thought London to Leeds was 2:20?

You're right, I've corrected it. No idea how I got 1:45!

There are four fast trains per hour between Leeds and Manchester, but only one between Leeds and Sheffield. Northern are supposed to be resurrecting the proposed fast local service via the fast route, whoch would probably take the path of this extension.

I didn't realise this was still happening. Thought all the express plans were scrapped for now at least. But that's good to hear. Even better if it came from Manchester

It doesn't feel that outrageous to me. And Sheffield may well get a minute or too quicker once it's all wired up... so incrementally more competitive (and less 'analogue') - with different service offerings, pricing (many universities along the route! much more than the lower ECML which is railheads rather than meaningful places) and newer connectivity (Leicester-Leeds, relief of the universally hated XC service, higher likelihood of churn / a seat being sold twice) - I think it might be worth a shot.

Then again, I think the same about St P - Manchester too. That adds Derby-Manchester as well as Leicester.

When I was travelling on the MML as a student around the start of term time, it often felt like most of train were students. Connecting London, Luton, Bedford, Leicester, Loughborough, Derby, Nottingham, Sheffield, Leeds - many of these places with two or more unis. Fares were often a bargain to Nottingham and HSTs were always full. Credit to EMT, they did that very well.

 

[dub]

There are four fast trains per hour between Leeds and Manchester, but only one between Leeds and Sheffield. Northern are supposed to be resurrecting the proposed fast local service via the fast route, whoch would probably take the path of this extension.

A Barnsley extension is a local request. You'd need somewhere to stick it for servicing before the return leg though.


Aye. It'll just have to wait until the new T-station platforms are built then...

how long is the funky siding on the wakefield side of barnsley station? could they use that? if not build a new platform where the carpark is and use the railway land on the other side of the road for the carpark.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Well I think it is a good idea. Odd hours through to Leeds and Even hours to York.

 

[TheWalrus]

Personally I would like to see the OP’s idea happen if the wirse get north of Sheffield to Wakefield and/or Doncaster

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Personally I would like to see the OP’s idea happen if the wirse get north of Sheffield to Wakefield and/or Doncaster

Agreed. Let’s get the wires to Sheffield first though please.

 

[Neptune]

Reading between the lines here it seems that the premise here isn’t so much East Midlands and West Yorkshire connectivity (of which there is plenty) but more the desire to link Leicester and Leeds directly. Has anyone got the market research figures for this to show that it is a market worth pursuing?

The problem is that if the market is there in sufficient numbers then there is lots of work to do, more than extending the Sheffield fast through to Leeds.

There are several elephants in the room which probably won’t have been considered.

1. Rolling stock - where is the additional resource required for this coming from?

2. Competitiveness - Leicester to Leeds via Derby is not really competitive on time. What you’d need to do is route it via Toton to cut the diversion time out.

3. Resource - Doing point 2 requires an even greater resource as per point 1.

4. Capacity - Doing all this requires a large capacity uplift all the way from St Pancras to Leeds with those 2 stations being the largest pinch points. More capacity required than is available in points.

5. Leeds station in the original plan to extend the Sheffield fast - How much would it cost for the necessary capacity increase to allow an extra 5-10 car train turn around in Leeds each hour? The current pathing would mean a 55 minute layover. I suspect it would be a minimum 8 maybe even 9 figure sum to achieve this without cutting any local services.

If all the above were resolved will the revenue uplift of this service cover it, even if it were just an extension of the Sheffield fast as suggested in the OP. I’m intrigued to see the costings.

 

[Iskra]

The easiest solution would be to compel XC to run no less than 8 carriages on their via Leeds services. That would solve the issue.

A second IC quality train between Leeds and Sheffield, is not strictly necessary in my opinion but would be a decent aspiration and would probably help grow passenger numbers if it happened.

Something does need to change on this route though as the current service pattern is inadequate. The Northern semi-fast being 2 cars as the relief to the XC if that’s swamped is not a great situation, which does involve passengers being left behind at times, or forced on to the extremely slow stopping services. Both the XC and NT semi fast seem to leave Sheffield around the same time too, so a faster train with reasonable capacity at the other side of the hour would look beneficial.

Could Transpennine step in once they’ve found their feet again? They have the rolling stock, and sign some of the route already.

Going back to EMR running to Leeds: Could a better solution be that that XC run both their services via Leeds and EMR run to York via Doncaster. Or XC stays the same but EMR run to Leeds and then on to York to terminate there where there’s less platform capacity constraints?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Rather than Leeds I would have thought an extension of the fast service to Barnsley would be worth it.
I would have also suggested Huddersfield but the Penistone line is unsuitable and Crigglestone Junction to Horbury Station Junction was cut so no way to run without reversal.
Or a service which extended to Rotherham via Meadowhall Interchange.

The old Turbostar services to Barnsley weren't a huge success back in the day but perhaps twenty years on there might be more demand... particularly if it ran faster than the old 170s did South of Sheffield, and at more convenient times of day.
The Penistone line isn't ideal, but it could run that way if it picked up the intermediate stops of the local, which rather defeats the object somewhat. The bigger problem would be lack of a suitable free platform at Huddersfield itself for a five-car set, unless you go for that old Forum classic of extending it further to Bradford.

Realistically though if there was real demand for a Huddersfield MML through service, you'd just reverse at Wakefield Kirkgate. Even with the reversal (and extra mileage compared to the lifted curve) it'd be quicker than going via Penistone. Reversals are only a problem that needs to be solved in the heads of forum members.

 

[Bartsimho]

The old Turbostar services to Barnsley weren't a huge success back in the day but perhaps twenty years on there might be more demand... particularly if it ran faster than the old 170s did South of Sheffield, and at more convenient times of day.
The Penistone line isn't ideal, but it could run that way if it picked up the intermediate stops of the local, which rather defeats the object somewhat. The bigger problem would be lack of a suitable free platform at Huddersfield itself for a five-car set, unless you go for that old Forum classic of extending it further to Bradford.

Realistically though if there was real demand for a Huddersfield MML through service, you'd just reverse at Wakefield Kirkgate. Even with the reversal (and extra mileage compared to the lifted curve) it'd be quicker than going via Penistone. Reversals are only a problem that needs to be solved in the heads of forum members.

Looking at the speeds of different routes:
Huddersfield-Euston is 2hrs 43mins via Piccadilly
Huddersfield-Kings Cross is 2hrs 45mins via Leeds
Both of these require starting with TPE who's unreliability causes major issues.

St Pancras-Sheffield is 2hrs 6mins via Derby I'd say stationary at Sheffield for 3 minutes for a crew change. Sheffield to Wakefield Kirkgate via Barnsley (stopping at Meadowhall Interchange) is maybe 35 minutes as I can only find the Northern Stoppers on this route. 5 min reversal time, I can see no direct Huddersfield to Wakefield services which is mind boggling to me but I would guess 20 minutes. Giving a time of around 3 hours and 9 minutes but it doesn't rely on TPE or favourable connections. It connects Huddersfield and Wakefield and is a quicker Huddersfield to Sheffield service than via the Penistone line

 

[61653 HTAFC]

St Pancras-Sheffield is 2hrs 6mins via Derby I'd say stationary at Sheffield for 3 minutes for a crew change. Sheffield to Wakefield Kirkgate via Barnsley (stopping at Meadowhall Interchange) is maybe 35 minutes as I can only find the Northern Stoppers on this route. 5 min reversal time, I can see no direct Huddersfield to Wakefield services which is mind boggling to me but I would guess 20 minutes. Giving a time of around 3 hours and 9 minutes but it doesn't rely on TPE or favourable connections. It connects Huddersfield and Wakefield and is a quicker Huddersfield to Sheffield service than via the Penistone line

The Northern semi-fasts also run via Barnsley, not sure why they aren't coming up in your search. Huddersfield to Wakefield is currently just a couple of replacement buses in the peaks at the moment, but back when it did run it was about 25-30 minutes to Wakefield Kirkgate with two intermediate stops at Deighton and Mirfield.
From December the TPE Manchester to Huddersfield stopper will be extended to Wakefield/Castleford/York (not sure if it'll be consistently to the same point or if some will stop short) which will restore the Huddersfield to Wakefield link, but can't call at Mirfield as there'll be a fast Saltburn service breathing down its neck.

 

[LLivery]

Reading between the lines here it seems that the premise here isn’t so much East Midlands and West Yorkshire connectivity (of which there is plenty) but more the desire to link Leicester and Leeds directly. Has anyone got the market research figures for this to show that it is a market worth pursuing?

The problem is that if the market is there in sufficient numbers then there is lots of work to do, more than extending the Sheffield fast through to Leeds.

There are several elephants in the room which probably won’t have been considered.

1. Rolling stock - where is the additional resource required for this coming from?

2. Competitiveness - Leicester to Leeds via Derby is not really competitive on time. What you’d need to do is route it via Toton to cut the diversion time out.

3. Resource - Doing point 2 requires an even greater resource as per point 1.

4. Capacity - Doing all this requires a large capacity uplift all the way from St Pancras to Leeds with those 2 stations being the largest pinch points. More capacity required than is available in points.

5. Leeds station in the original plan to extend the Sheffield fast - How much would it cost for the necessary capacity increase to allow an extra 5-10 car train turn around in Leeds each hour? The current pathing would mean a 55 minute layover. I suspect it would be a minimum 8 maybe even 9 figure sum to achieve this without cutting any local services.

If all the above were resolved will the revenue uplift of this service cover it, even if it were just an extension of the Sheffield fast as suggested in the OP. I’m intrigued to see the costings.

For me, although nice to have, improving connectivity doesn't necessarily mean new links such as Leicester and Leeds, but also improving on what's already offered on the Derby - Leeds corridor. I don't think it's good enough for major cities like Sheffield and Leeds and this could be a reasonable fix. Having said that, if the Hope Valley could handle it, I'd consider an hourly Manchester - Stockport - Sheffield - Rotherham or Barnsley - Wakefield - Leeds service instead.

What's the time difference between Trent Junction to Clay Cross via either Derby and Erewash? If it's a good reduction or affordable to improve line speeds, I'd consider cutting Derby out of the fastest (Leeds)-Sheffield-London service and have it call at Alfreton, although I can see that becoming political for Derby...

Is it out of the question to use Neville Hill as a turnback for Leeds? Seems like it'd solve occupying platform space at Leeds for a relatively modest expenditure - a Westbourne Park without the automated stuff.

Well I think it is a good idea. Odd hours through to Leeds and Even hours to York.

I'd take that

The easiest solution would be to compel XC to run no less than 8 carriages on their via Leeds services. That would solve the issue.

A second IC quality train between Leeds and Sheffield, is not strictly necessary in my opinion but would be a decent aspiration and would probably help grow passenger numbers if it happened.

Something does need to change on this route though as the current service pattern is inadequate. The Northern semi-fast being 2 cars as the relief to the XC if that’s swamped is not a great situation, which does involve passengers being left behind at times, or forced on to the extremely slow stopping services. Both the XC and NT semi fast seem to leave Sheffield around the same time too, so a faster train with reasonable capacity at the other side of the hour would look beneficial.

This is my thinking. I feel like it's something that we really should have an aspiration for.

 

[Neptune]

Is it out of the question to use Neville Hill as a turnback for Leeds? Seems like it'd solve occupying platform space at Leeds for a relatively modest expenditure - a Westbourne Park without the automated stuff.

100% out of the question. An hourly ECS in either direction on the constrained 2 track section with the NL - LDS crossing the entire throat of NL would be just as bad for capacity than keeping the train in the platform.

I can’t emphasise enough (and I’ve done it so many times in the past) that Leeds does not have the capacity for another IC length train terminating there and as paths are so constrained to the east of Leeds running through doesn’t make it that much better. Running to NL is a bigger capacity crusher than a through service.

Unless you’re offering me unlimited funds that don’t exist to either tunnel under Leeds station for new platforms or for a new wider 4 track viaduct to the east of Leeds station then I’m sorry to say that it’s a no go for EMR, XC or anybody else.

 

[Iskra]

The old Turbostar services to Barnsley weren't a huge success back in the day but perhaps twenty years on there might be more demand... particularly if it ran faster than the old 170s did South of Sheffield, and at more convenient times of day.
The Penistone line isn't ideal, but it could run that way if it picked up the intermediate stops of the local, which rather defeats the object somewhat. The bigger problem would be lack of a suitable free platform at Huddersfield itself for a five-car set, unless you go for that old Forum classic of extending it further to Bradford.

Realistically though if there was real demand for a Huddersfield MML through service, you'd just reverse at Wakefield Kirkgate. Even with the reversal (and extra mileage compared to the lifted curve) it'd be quicker than going via Penistone. Reversals are only a problem that needs to be solved in the heads of forum members.

I think there may be gauging issues on the Penistone line for IET style stock.

100% out of the question. An hourly ECS in either direction on the constrained 2 track section with the NL - LDS crossing the entire throat of NL would be just as bad for capacity than keeping the train in the platform.

I can’t emphasise enough (and I’ve done it so many times in the past) that Leeds does not have the capacity for another IC length train terminating there and as paths are so constrained to the east of Leeds running through doesn’t make it that much better. Running to NL is a bigger capacity crusher than a through service.

Unless you’re offering me unlimited funds that don’t exist to either tunnel under Leeds station for new platforms or for a new wider 4 track viaduct to the east of Leeds station then I’m sorry to say that it’s a no go for EMR, XC or anybody else.

Perhaps run more trains Sheffield-York direct (or via Doncaster) then? That would at least relieve the XC via Leeds services as many XC passengers at least seem to be heading to York.

 

[Neptune]

Perhaps run more trains Sheffield-York direct (or via Doncaster) then? That would at least relieve the XC via Leeds services as many XC passengers at least seem to be heading to York.

Sorry are you saying get rid of XC services via Leeds or get rid of services from Leeds - Scotland. Neither of these are a desirable result.

 

[Iskra]

Sorry are you saying get rid of XC services via Leeds or get rid of services from Leeds - Scotland. Neither of these are a desirable result.

Neither, I’m saying run additional Sheffield-York services. I’m not bothered who or how, but I think that would relieve some of the issues on the Sheffield-Leeds-York flows without adding to capacity issues at Leeds.