Should there be more Sail/Rail services to Ireland?

[Spartacus]

Well whether we all like it or not there will be much increased scrutiny over the coming years on the abundance of short haul flights and something has to give at some point. Without trialling a London service and attempting to market it how are we ever going to know? Things can not continue as they are forever.

How long do you run such a speculative service for? It took 9 months for regular trains between the upper and lower Calder valley in west Yorkshire to become well patronised in an area of low fares and high traffic congestion. Services to Southampton for liners were run for, I think, a year, and they proved unsustainable, even with a pretty captive market.

 

[AlbertBeale]

I don’t see it happening anytime soon.

I left my home in Dublin this morning and four hours later I’m in Doncaster station.

If I’d used the ship it would take me another 6.5 hours, and I’d have to have left earlier.

It’s poppycock to think people are going to do that in any numbers crossing the Irish Sea. It would be like returning to the dark ages.

I'm afraid it's people insisting - mostly selfishly - on flying who're returning civilisation (ie our ecosystem) back to the dark ages.

 

[berneyarms]

I'm afraid it's people insisting - mostly selfishly - on flying who're returning civilisation (ie our ecosystem) back to the dark ages.

Again I’d suggest you start educating yourself about the needs of an island nation like Ireland on the extreme of Europe before telling me what I should or should not do.

I’m sorry but I don’t have 12 hours to waste on a ferry and train to just get to London.

That day has gone.

I’m quite happy to use public transport around Ireland and in Britain and on the continent, but expecting me to take hours using ferries (perhaps multiple ones) and trains to get anywhere off my home island is fanciful.

You’re basically saying that to get anywhere I’d need to lose two days travelling there and back which frankly is time that I and the vast majority of my compatriots do not have.

 

[berneyarms]

Well whether we all like it or not there will be much increased scrutiny over the coming years on the abundance of short haul flights and something has to give at some point. Without trialling a London service and attempting to market it how are we ever going to know? Things can not continue as they are forever.

Where are all these people going to go after Rosslare?

While there are train services (which are slow) along the east coast, the rail line to Waterford is never going to reopen, and the bus only takes you to Waterford where you need to change again to go any further.

 

[gordonthemoron]

It would be nice if they could have better connections at Holyhead

 

[Tobbes]

I'm wholly seized by the need to combat climate change, and the increasingly important share of global emissions from air travel.

However, I can only think ofy two effective methods of achieving modal shift on a significant scale - carrots and sticks. The stick is simple but blunt: add a massive tax to air travel and price people off marginal journeys. If it cost £575 to fly to Dublin or Cork, demand would fall massively - but it wouldn't all move to rail/ships- rather, it would mostly be trips that didn't happen, with commensurate economic and social welfare losses.

The other alternative is a carrot: a better service. HS2-North Wales HSR-Angelsey-Tunnel-Dublin could see London - Birmingham - Dublin (Euston - Heuston?) in 2h 15mins. If you have that, and have emissions taxation on aviation reflecting the damage it does, then you will see large modal shift from air to rail. But not, I fear before an Irish Sea tunnel.

 

[Ianno87]

Also to get to Dublin and thus on to most of Ireland from London, Holyhead seems the more obvious route. That of course still has fast through trains from London.

Dublin via Holyhead is the biggest (though not necessarily 'big') Rail-Sail flow prospect.

What I would think would help would be more co-ordination between the Irish Ferries and Stena schedules. which generally seem to involve chasing each other across the sea all day long, so the regularity of sailings in each direction is not very good.

*If* there were (say) more consistently spaced sailings across the day, it might open up a tiny bit more market, through being less tied to travelling at very specific times just to make a sailing.

Also more awareness of how genuinely good value Rail-Sail fares are would help!

 

[Elwyn]

I used to travel from London to Dublin by train in the 1970s. You had to queue at Euston, queue for the ferry at Holyhead, queue for the bar on board, queue for Customs at Dun Laoghaire and then queue for the train to Connolly (often having to stand). It took a whole night and was definitely less enjoyable than Ryanair. And that’s saying something.


Unless Governments restrict short haul flights to and from Ireland you are not going to persuade people to switch back to a 12 hour train and boat journey. And no Government is going to introduce those sorts of restrictions at the moment as it would be political suicide.

 

[berneyarms]

Dublin via Holyhead is the biggest (though not necessarily 'big') Rail-Sail flow prospect.

What I would think would help would be more co-ordination between the Irish Ferries and Stena schedules. which generally seem to involve chasing each other across the sea all day long, so the regularity of sailings in each direction is not very good.

*If* there were (say) more consistently spaced sailings across the day, it might open up a tiny bit more market, through being less tied to travelling at very specific times just to make a sailing.

Also more awareness of how genuinely good value Rail-Sail fares are would help!

The sailing times are dictated by demands of the biggest user group - freight.

 

[berneyarms]

I used to travel from London to Dublin by train in the 1970s. You had to queue at Euston, queue for the ferry at Holyhead, queue for the bar on board, queue for Customs at Dun Laoghaire and then queue for the train to Connolly (often having to stand). It took a whole night and was definitely less enjoyable than Ryanair. And that’s saying something.


Unless Governments restrict short haul flights to and from Ireland you are not going to persuade people to switch back to a 12 hour train and boat journey. And no Government is going to introduce those sorts of restrictions at the moment as it would be political suicide.

Finally - someone here who actually understands the situation, the political realities of living in Ireland and the geographic implications of my country’s location.

You’ve hit the nail on the head.

 

[craigybagel]

Not everyone is going to Dublin. Cork and Wexford are easily reached from the south and there is much tourist potential in Kerry and Clare. Training one link at swansea to fishguard wouldn't break the bank, indeed GWR are pretty flush with drivers these days anyway .

Those places in the South West are relatively easily reached from Rosslare it's true - in a car! Not on public transport.

As far as the training costs go, I've no idea what the link structure at GWR Swansea is, but if we're conservative and say you need to train 20 drivers, and again be conservative and say they need a week's training each (I suspect both figures would be higher but I digress), that's 20 weeks driver pay. Plus a certain amount of guards too. You're easily hitting 30k already. Not exactly a trifling sum.

Much worse though is needing to find a train that's going to spend 3 hours a day trundling up to Fishguard and back when it could be doing something more profitable. Where exactly do you pinch that train from?

If Ryanair - or indeed any airline - have won, then we've all lost. If the planet is to be still viable for our species in a generation's time, then most air journeys within Europe will have had to be replaced by rail-boat journeys. So it's best we prepare for that and get used to it now.

There are lots of connections easy to re-establish. Eg Ostend has an excellent integrated port and railway station (and bus/tram station) ... but just no passenger boats now. Rosslare, as discussed here, could have its train service to Cork etc put back.

Hook of Holland is coming back online for trains imminently, and - on that route - on this side Harwich is an integrated interchange.

Less pessimism/fatalism please...

It's not pessimism/fatalism, it's realism - from people who I suspect like me are both Irish (and therefore know the market and the area concerned) and work on the railway (and know how hard these things are too implement, and how there are much better lower hanging fruit you could spend the money on instead).

Where are all these people going to go after Rosslare?

While there are train services (which are slow) along the east coast, the rail line to Waterford is never going to reopen, and the bus only takes you to Waterford where you need to change again to go any further.

This! I was surprised how long it took someone to point out. Yes, Irish Rail have been guilty in the past of running down lines in the hope of that eventually closure that could be a lot more successful with investment (Limerick - Ballybrophy/Waterford are prime examples) but even in the UK the line across South Wexford would have been closed decades ago. Sugar Beet was the only thing keeping it open - when that went, it was an expensive branch line linking some tiny villages with a relatively small city at one end and an increasingly decrepit ferry port at the other end. There's not a hope it's coming back, rightly.

If you're traveling anywhere beyond Waterford and you want to travel by surface transport, in most cases going via Dublin gives similar or even better journey times, and caters for the existing limited market.

 

[cactustwirly]

Dublin via Holyhead is the biggest (though not necessarily 'big') Rail-Sail flow prospect.

What I would think would help would be more co-ordination between the Irish Ferries and Stena schedules. which generally seem to involve chasing each other across the sea all day long, so the regularity of sailings in each direction is not very good.

*If* there were (say) more consistently spaced sailings across the day, it might open up a tiny bit more market, through being less tied to travelling at very specific times just to make a sailing.

Also more awareness of how genuinely good value Rail-Sail fares are would help!

But the Ferries are timed for freight not passengers, because that's where the money is!
No ferry company is going to change their times for a handful of foot passengers.

 

[aar0]

I'm a non swimmer who hates boats so wouldn't consider it under any circumstances

I don't have wings and can't fly so wouldn't consider flying under any circumstances

 

[krus_aragon]

The other alternative is a carrot: a better service. HS2-North Wales HSR-Angelsey-Tunnel-Dublin could see London - Birmingham - Dublin (Euston - Heuston?) in 2h 15mins. If you have that, and have emissions taxation on aviation reflecting the damage it does, then you will see large modal shift from air to rail. But not, I fear before an Irish Sea tunnel.

I'd love the idea of a Heuston-Euston service, but the engineering issues of how to get high speed rail (and then a sea tunnel) through North Wales would be very interesting. It could end up being a re-run of the debates of the 1830s/40s on which route was best (and whether to aim for Holyhead, Llandudno, or Porth Dinllaen).

 

[Tobbes]

I'd love the idea of a Heuston-Euston service, but the engineering issues of how to get high speed rail (and then a sea tunnel) through North Wales would be very interesting. It could end up being a re-run of the debates of the 1830s/40s on which route was best (and whether to aim for Holyhead, Llandudno, or Porth Dinllaen).

I'd presume that you'd come off HS2 north of Crewe, and then run along the North Wales Coast on an HSR alignment, over to Angelsey and then into a tunnel? I presume it would be a little like HS1 north of the Thames where it weaves in and over rail and choob lines, A13, M25 and all the rest - if they can thread HS1 through that, then the North Wales coast is also possible.

 

[PartyOperator]

If Crewe to Holyhead could be done in under an hour (seems plausible for a ~150km journey without needing a new high-speed line), a four hour London-Dublin trip would be achievable with HS2 and the existing fast ferry. That probably would be quick enough to compete even if it wouldn’t be quite as fast as flying.

On a tangentially related point, ideally there would be much less freight going through Dublin - the port takes up a huge amount of very central land in a city with severe shortages of housing and office space and serious road congestion problems that are not helped by the many lorries. Leaving a small passenger ferry terminal or even running fast passenger ferries into Dun Laoghaire (which has direct access to the DART) would seem sensible.

 

[Ianno87]

The sailing times are dictated by demands of the biggest user group - freight.

I suspected as much!

 

[krus_aragon]

I'd presume that you'd come off HS2 north of Crewe, and then run along the North Wales Coast on an HSR alignment, over to Angelsey and then into a tunnel? I presume it would be a little like HS1 north of the Thames where it weaves in and over rail and choob lines, A13, M25 and all the rest - if they can thread HS1 through that, then the North Wales coast is also possible.

The issues with that route (then as now) is crossing the Conwy estuary, getting past the mountainous headlands either side of Penmaenmawr, and then crossing the Menai Straits.

Here's an aerial photo of the Pen-y-Clip headland near Penmaenmawr:

Nearest the shore is the tunnel and viaduct of the current railway (the viaduct was built because the embankment kept washing out). Next is the 1930s road, now used as the eastbound carriageway of the A55. Then there's the old 1830s Telford road now used as a walking and cycle route. At the upper right you can see the exit of the 1980s tunnel that carries the westbound carriageway of the A55. It's rather crowded.

The Conwy estuary has a similar assortment of crossings: Telford's suspension bridge, Stephenson's tubular rail bridge, and a 1950s road bridge, as well as the A55 tunelling under the river. All in close proximity to a UNESCO world heritage site (Conwy Castle and Town Walls). If you go inland to avoid these, then you're going to run straight into Conwy Mountain and the Snowdonia National Park.

I've read the original report into the proposed route of the North Wales Expressway (as the A55 was called) in the 1980s: the recurring theme is of having to choose whether to run the road along the coast (destroying the views and cutting the seaside towns away from the shore) or plough through the mountains at great expense. The same choices would face a new high-speed rail route, with the added complication that the A55 is in the way now, too.

At the Menai Straits, there's been a desire for a third bridge to ease the road traffic situation for years. The fact that the waters of the straits are a Site of Special Scientific Interest has complicated the issue as it is. If a high-speed rail route were to come along, it would be strange to avoid Bangor, the most heavily used station in North Wales. But the current rail route into Bangor (tunnelling in and out across the valley) leaves you running parallel to the straits, which makes for a slow, tight curve onto a bridge to cross the straits.

Then again, why does the sea tunnel have to start at Holyhead? The road and current railway go there because Holyhead's harbour offers good shelter from the prevailing winds. That would be irrelevant if one were tunneling under the sea.

There's nothing impossible here though, it just requires some good engineering (and money) to overcome.

 

[craigybagel]

Then again, why does the sea tunnel have to start at Holyhead? The road and current railway go there because Holyhead's harbour offers good shelter from the prevailing winds. That would be irrelevant if one were tunneling under the sea.

Surely though the fact that Holyhead is the closest point to Dublin is key. Anywhere else and your very long tunnel has to be even longer still.

 

[krus_aragon]

Surely though the fact that Holyhead is the closest point to Dublin is key. Anywhere else and your very long tunnel has to be even longer still.

I was thinking of the Bangor / Menai Straits issue when I wrote that, and probably didn't put enough of my thoughts down on paper. I was thinking of an alternate start point in North West Wales, as opposed to back in Liverpool!

If you've come as far as Bangor already, and you're aiming to dive your railway line into a tunnel, you don't have to get to Holyhead first. You could, for example, cross the straits further west around Felinheli (and get a straighter alignment), aiming to start tunnelling somewhere around Newborough or Aberffraw. That tunnel would only be 10 miles or so longer than starting at Holyhead itself. Small change compared to the project as a whole.

Mind you, this is barely back-of-envelope planning here. There's plenty that would require proper thought and evaluation.

 

[craigybagel]

If Crewe to Holyhead could be done in under an hour (seems plausible for a ~150km journey without needing a new high-speed line), a four hour London-Dublin trip would be achievable with HS2 and the existing fast ferry. That probably would be quick enough to compete even if it wouldn’t be quite as fast as flying.

Once you add in time for check in and security and so on you'd still be looking more like 4.5 hours, and only by using a ferry whon went it used to sail in winter (which at present it doesn't) suffered from a less then brilliant level of reliability. The Irish Sea is rarely a pleasant place to be in Winter!

On a tangentially related point, ideally there would be much less freight going through Dublin - the port takes up a huge amount of very central land in a city with severe shortages of housing and office space and serious road congestion problems that are not helped by the many lorries. Leaving a small passenger ferry terminal or even running fast passenger ferries into Dun Laoghaire (which has direct access to the DART) would seem sensible.

A lot of money has gone into setting up Dublin Port as the main entry point of ferry cargo into Dublin - not least the tunnel linking the port entrance with the motorway network. Moving it all somewhere else would cost a small fortune, and lead to longer ferry crossings.

You could run a passenger only service info Dun Laoghaire, but given Irish Ferries can only justify running their fast ferry seasonally (and Stena Line don't run a fast ferry at all anymore) it's clear that freight is king, and that the passenger side is just a nice niche business on the side.

 

[Tobbes]

The issues with that route (then as now) is crossing the Conwy estuary, getting past the mountainous headlands either side of Penmaenmawr, and then crossing the Menai Straits.

Here's an aerial photo of the Pen-y-Clip headland near Penmaenmawr:

Nearest the shore is the tunnel and viaduct of the current railway (the viaduct was built because the embankment kept washing out). Next is the 1930s road, now used as the eastbound carriageway of the A55. Then there's the old 1830s Telford road now used as a walking and cycle route. At the upper right you can see the exit of the 1980s tunnel that carries the westbound carriageway of the A55. It's rather crowded.

Indeed, I'd avoid Pen-y-Clip entirely by tunnelling under the Menai Strait to come onto Angelsey north of Beaumaris before proceeding directly across Angelsey to use the existing rail bridge and then into the Irish Sea tunnel at an appropriate point. Given freight's dominance, I'd place a Eurotunnel style lorry-loading rolling road park off the Expressway before the bridge to Holyhead proper. I accept that this would mean not directly serving Bangor, but that's what classic compatibles are for.

There's nothing impossible here though, it just requires some good engineering (and money) to overcome.

Absolutely!

 

[squizzler]

I took my last trip to Ireland by Sail Rail and it was a great experience. No slumming nights on an aerodrome bench wondering if tomorrow will be the day the trade unionists of Ryanair will bother themselves to fly for me!

As the US political/media establishment is panicking at the realisation that even the Atlantic is proving no barrier to the committed non-flier Greta, I am proud that both my modest trips to Ireland have been by sea.

 

[mmh]

Mod Note: Posts #1 - #32 originally in this thread.

In the current climate of cutting down emissions it would be nice to have one train a day direct from Paddington to fishguard connecting with a ferry to Ireland in both directions. Would of course need a decent connection at rosslare for wexford and preferably cork, as well as stations up to Dublin .

Ferries are hardly low emission though, and London to Cork by train and ferry isn't quick, or cheap.

 

[Tobbes]

Ferries are hardly low emission though, and London to Cork by train and ferry isn't quick, or cheap.

Precisely. If you want to drive modal shift from flying, build a better product - and that's an HSR + tunnel.

 

[mmh]

But the Ferries are timed for freight not passengers, because that's where the money is!
No ferry company is going to change their times for a handful of foot passengers.

I think that's slightly strange logic. The lorries are there at the times they are because of the ferry times. If they were different, they'd be there at different times.

 

[mmh]

Precisely. If you want to drive modal shift from flying, build a better product - and that's an HSR + tunnel.

An impossible to build high speed line to Holyhead and tunnel to Dublin would still be far slower than flying and used by nobody going to Cork.

 

[craigybagel]

I think that's slightly strange logic. The lorries are there at the times they are because of the ferry times. If they were different, they'd be there at different times.

The logistics and distribution networks are all set up for freight arriving into Ireland from the UK in the early hours of the morning. Bear in mind as well this is not a recent development - the departure times have been in and around 9 am and pm from Ireland and 3 am and pm from Wales since the days of steamboats. Obviously there is traffic at other times of day too but you'll always find those crossing times are the ones with the biggest ferries, and the ones that are covered first when they can't run a full timetable due to ships being on refit.

 

[Tobbes]

An impossible to build high speed line to Holyhead and tunnel to Dublin would still be far slower than flying and used by nobody going to Cork.

London to Dublin in under 2h30 would take a huge market share of the London - Dublin flow. I've no idea if a tunnel is impossible - impossible is a very strong word.

 

[Chester1]

I'm afraid it's people insisting - mostly selfishly - on flying who're returning civilisation (ie our ecosystem) back to the dark ages.

I'm wholly seized by the need to combat climate change, and the increasingly important share of global emissions from air travel.

However, I can only think ofy two effective methods of achieving modal shift on a significant scale - carrots and sticks. The stick is simple but blunt: add a massive tax to air travel and price people off marginal journeys. If it cost £575 to fly to Dublin or Cork, demand would fall massively - but it wouldn't all move to rail/ships- rather, it would mostly be trips that didn't happen, with commensurate economic and social welfare losses.

The other alternative is a carrot: a better service. HS2-North Wales HSR-Angelsey-Tunnel-Dublin could see London - Birmingham - Dublin (Euston - Heuston?) in 2h 15mins. If you have that, and have emissions taxation on aviation reflecting the damage it does, then you will see large modal shift from air to rail. But not, I fear before an Irish Sea tunnel.

The third option would be to make flying more environmentally friendly. Airbus will be testing the first E-Fan X hybrid plane in the next year or so. It will have three traditional turbo propeller engines and one electric engine. At 70-100 seats and 275mph top speed it would be ideal for London-Dublin (and Amsterdam), using the smaller London Airports. It's a good reduction and let's not forget air travel is a tiny contributor to CO2 at 5% of UK emissions.