Should USB-C ports be fitted to trains?

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The latest Apple iPhones, Apple Watches, iPads and AirPods have switched to USB-C charging, joining their MacBooks which have had this for years. None of these will work with a standard USB port (infuriatingly for me as a Mac user who takes it on every long train journey, and the plugs are quite bulky anyway)

Should USB-C ports be fitted to new trains from this point? The proportion of the country using Apple is not exactly going to be small, is it. Approximately 52% of the country use iPhones and that's not counting those that have an Android but use a Mac or have an iPad. 65% of Americans use an Apple product, and we're not going to be too far removed from them.

I just wondered, because some trains have USB ports but not actual plugs, and these will soon become useless as older iPhone/Watch/iPad/AirPod models die out.

 

[yorksrob]

I can sympathise, but USB-C doesn't seem to be particularly robust (I had one fail on me earlier in the year).

Would a cable with USB-C on one end and trad USB on the other work with apple products (apart from a couple of Beatles lp's I've never owned one).

 

[Energy]

I can sympathise, but USB-C doesn't seem to be particularly robust (I had one fail on me earlier in the year).

Would a cable with USB-C on one end and trad USB on the other work with apple products (apart from a couple of Beatles lp's I've never owned one).

For standard USB charging USB C is the same as USB A but wired to different pins.

For USB PD (above 12W IIRC) it's USB C only. Knowing retrofits we'll continue to see the useless 5W USB ports.

 

[yorksrob]

For standard USB charging USB C is the same as USB A but wired to different pins.

For USB PD (above 12W IIRC) it's USB C only. Knowing retrofits we'll continue to see the useless 5W USB ports.

I must admit, I find the standard USB ports quite handy.

 

[Nick Ashwell]

The latest Apple iPhones, Apple Watches, iPads and AirPods have switched to USB-C charging, joining their MacBooks which have had this for years. None of these will work with a standard USB port (infuriatingly for me as a Mac user who takes it on every long train journey, and the plugs are quite bulky anyway)

Should USB-C ports be fitted to new trains from this point? The proportion of the country using Apple is not exactly going to be small, is it. Approximately 52% of the country use iPhones and that's not counting those that have an Android but use a Mac or have an iPad. 65% of Americans use an Apple product, and we're not going to be too far removed from them.

I just wondered, because some trains have USB ports but not actual plugs, and these will soon become useless as older iPhone/Watch/iPad/AirPod models die out.

The power draw on a Mac is going to be too much for the train grade USB ports, so that's why 230v plugs work better. Delivering the required wattage on a type C connector in the carriage is going to not be good for costs and conventional plugs will just work better for that use case. If there aren't plugs the wiring used for Type A is not going to deliver the 60w my laptop power adapter provides to the laptop's Type C (well Thunderbolt but they're essentially the same thing for power)

It also however isn't just Apple products that have switched to USB-C charging, all phones and soon all laptops will soon have to be USB-C powered under EU regulations and the manufacturers aren't going to increase costs by having a different connector outside of the EU.

Apple has been late joining the USB-C charging compared to most, high end laptops and Android devices which have had it for years.

I keep both a C to A and an A to C adapter on me so that no matter whether I'm charging my Pixel or my iPad, I can charge them. This is a much simpler way of doing things than thinking trains should have cables capable of high wattage for laptops using USB.

Personally I'd prefer to see more 230v plugs on trains, but that isn't going to happen given the costs.

 

[SynthD]

Yes, but I wouldn’t complain if it took a few years to start appearing. Can buses react quicker?

Do any public vehicles in the world provide more than 5W by usb? The socket and device have to negotiate a higher charging rate, an avoidable complication.

 

[AlastairFraser]

The latest Apple iPhones, Apple Watches, iPads and AirPods have switched to USB-C charging, joining their MacBooks which have had this for years. None of these will work with a standard USB port (infuriatingly for me as a Mac user who takes it on every long train journey, and the plugs are quite bulky anyway)

Should USB-C ports be fitted to new trains from this point? The proportion of the country using Apple is not exactly going to be small, is it. Approximately 52% of the country use iPhones and that's not counting those that have an Android but use a Mac or have an iPad. 65% of Americans use an Apple product, and we're not going to be too far removed from them.

I just wondered, because some trains have USB ports but not actual plugs, and these will soon become useless as older iPhone/Watch/iPad/AirPod models die out.

No, because as others have pointed out, it needs a much higher grade of power supply to install USB-C PD capable sockets.
Standard 3 pin sockets should be fitted to all interregional and long distance trains though, as a minimum.

 

[Ken H]

No, because as others have pointed out, it needs a much higher grade of power supply to install USB-C PD capable sockets.
Standard 3 pin sockets should be fitted to all interregional and long distance trains though, as a minimum.

Till someone plugs in a hairdryer...

So you need 240v for some stuff but you need to limit the scarce current on a train or bus. Some sort of circuit breaker in each socket so it cant pull more than (say) 12W. Nice for charging a lap top too.
And a USB for most stuff with enough omppf for fast charging. But so people dont need to carry a 240v to USB adaptor.

 

[Energy]

No, because as others have pointed out, it needs a much higher grade of power supply to install USB-C PD capable sockets.
Standard 3 pin sockets should be fitted to all interregional and long distance trains though, as a minimum.

No - USB C can be at the normal 5V 2.4A at 12W. USB PD is a seperate part which allows for higher wattages.

The cost for USB PD sockets is a bit higher (around £30 per socket at consumer prices) and has only come onto the market relatively recently (Knightsbridge have a few).

Power demand for a 45W USB is a bit higher but isn't necessarily too high given how much power budget is relieved from switching older trains to LED lighting.

 

[HSTEd]

Are 230V sockets on trains all fed from individual inverters, or do carriages/sets have a seat socket bus fed from a central inverter?

The latter would require more wiring and have electromagnetic compatibility issues but would allow major savings in power load from diversity.

 

[James H]

The new Morebus double-deckers for the m1 etc in Bournemouth/Poole have both USB-A and USB-C sockets at-seat

 

[AM9]

Approximately 52% of the country use iPhones and that's not counting those that have an Android but use a Mac or have an iPad. 65% of Americans use an Apple product, and we're not going to be too far removed from them.

Actually that is way out, the UK figures are about 60% Android and 40% IOS, see here: https://www.insiderintelligence.com/content/iphones-gaining-us-market-share-losing-uk .

 

[popeter45]

what would prob be a good idea is replacing the 13a sockets with GaN USB C chargers (65-100W units are tiny these days so would be super easy to retrofit), also make the user side connector a easy to replace coupler to the actual charger so easy to replace as/when the wear out, if anybody works with RF test equipment they will know of using sacrificial couplings to avoid needing to replace expensive test leads

 

[Nym]

Or maybe, just maybe stop spending money to remove or change things that work fine…?
If there’s BS1363s already in place, leave them.
The majority of retrofit USB chargers are insanely low wattage and be them A or C it will make no difference.

 

[Bantamzen]

The simple answer here is either buy a USB-C adapter that can be pulled into the 3 pins, or buy a power block capable of recharging whatever devices are being used.

 

[takno]

The simple answer here is either buy a USB-C adapter that can be pulled into the 3 pins, or buy a power block capable of recharging whatever devices are being used.

There are a couple of other factors in play here. One being explored on another thread is whether the use of USB type C in place of 3 pin plugs would prevent people from plugging in high-current devices and tripping the power supplies. Another is whether it's easier and cheaper to supply a DC current, rather than recitfying up to a highish AC voltage only for all approved devices to reduce down to 12-20 volts. For people travelling without luggage it's also a lot easier to carry a small charging cable rather than an entire power supply.

 

[Bantamzen]

There are a couple of other factors in play here. One being explored on another thread is whether the use of USB type C in place of 3 pin plugs would prevent people from plugging in high-current devices and tripping the power supplies. Another is whether it's easier and cheaper to supply a DC current, rather than recitfying up to a highish AC voltage only for all approved devices to reduce down to 12-20 volts. For people travelling without luggage it's also a lot easier to carry a small charging cable rather than an entire power supply.

And just how often do people actually do this? I'm going to say it pretty darn rare. Its going to be a long time before USB-C will be a standard connector on public transport, so buying an adapter and/or a power bank will negate the risk of not being able to charge your device. In terms of important things that need to be sorted on the railways, USB-C is around 1,235,679th on the list.

 

[AM9]

And just how often do people actually do this? I'm going to say it pretty darn rare. Its going to be a long time before USB-C will be a standard connector on public transport, so buying an adapter and/or a power bank will negate the risk of not being able to charge your device. In terms of important things that need to be sorted on the railways, USB-C is around 1,235,679th on the list.

Those that 'forget' to pack items that are essential to them will just have to learn:

firstly to charge their devices before leaving​

secondly if their use is so intensive that their device's battery is inadequate for the duration of their journey, either carry an appropriate means of charging them if a supply is available, or ideally carry a portable charger.​

 

[takno]

And just how often do people actually do this? I'm going to say it pretty darn rare. Its going to be a long time before USB-C will be a standard connector on public transport, so buying an adapter and/or a power bank will negate the risk of not being able to charge your device. In terms of important things that need to be sorted on the railways, USB-C is around 1,235,679th on the list.

Oh I agree for retrofits. More a question for standards in new stock and heavy refurbishments tbh

 

[HSTEd]

There are a couple of other factors in play here. One being explored on another thread is whether the use of USB type C in place of 3 pin plugs would prevent people from plugging in high-current devices and tripping the power supplies. Another is whether it's easier and cheaper to supply a DC current, rather than recitfying up to a highish AC voltage only for all approved devices to reduce down to 12-20 volts. For people travelling without luggage it's also a lot easier to carry a small charging cable rather than an entire power supply.

Honestly I doubt a DC solution is cheaper, because a modern multiple unit, built for this job from the start, could have a single high power inverter serving all the sockets through a suitable AC distribution system built using conventional (and thus cheap) hardware.

Diversity will do far more to mitigate against people with "high current" devices than switching to a DC charging spec.
And that DC charging spec is rapidly skyrocketing towards "high power" anyway......

 

[Bletchleyite]

iPhones and iPads absolutely will charge off an A to C cable. That is the only way I ever charge mine, every single night.

Laptops won't but it's not really a hardship to carry a suitable 230V plug if you are carrying a laptop. And on trains that only have USB A it's due to limited alternator capacity which would mean any C socket wouldn't charge a laptop either.

Nonetheless I do think we will see these in time.

 

[Fragezeichnen]

The proportion of the country using Apple is not exactly going to be small, is it. Approximately 52% of the country use iPhones and that's not counting those that have an Android but use a Mac or have an iPad. 65% of Americans use an Apple product, and we're not going to be too far removed from them.

The US is something of an outlier, because WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal are almost entirely unknown there. Instead, the most popular chat system is iMessage, which rather than being a seperate app, is automatically and transparently used by any Apple device when sending a message to one or more other Apple devices. However, if a chat or a chat group contains any non-Apple devices, the entire chat experience degrades to what is possible using standard SMS messages. There is therefore considerable social pressure, particularly amongst young people, to use an Apple device.

 

[D365]

Or maybe, just maybe stop spending money to remove or change things that work fine…?
If there’s BS1363s already in place, leave them.
The majority of retrofit USB chargers are insanely low wattage and be them A or C it will make no difference.

In my experience, too low wattage - I struggle to charge even an iPhone SE on the majority of USB 'charger' outlets that I have tried.

Whether that's down to the supplier, the installer or the end user, I don't know...

 

[Nym]

I believe it's down to the specifier or proposer that is required to fulfil a line in their commitments for the lowest price possible.

There are high quality wireless and USB-C PD chargers available for rail use, including full EN51055, EN45545-2 etc. compliance, and even compatible with the requirements of RIA-12. But they cost money.

 

[birchesgreen]

I can sympathise, but USB-C doesn't seem to be particularly robust (I had one fail on me earlier in the year).

Would a cable with USB-C on one end and trad USB on the other work with apple products (apart from a couple of Beatles lp's I've never owned one).

Yes i use one to connect my new iPhone to my Mac, works fine. Cheapo Amazon cable.

 

[yorksrob]

Yes i use one to connect my new iPhone to my Mac, works fine. Cheapo Amazon cable.

Problem solved by the sounds of it then !

 

[Bletchleyite]

Problem solved by the sounds of it then !

The OP is plain wrong in saying iDevices won't charge from USB A because they will, I have an iPhone and iPad and only ever charge them from USB A. If a specific USB A port doesn't charge them it's just because it's underspecified, not because it's USB A.

Laptops yes, but that requires a lot more power that the alternator of a 156 (say) may not be able to provide. I seem to recall that conversion to LED lighting was necessary to free up enough power to do USBs on 150s and 156s. And increasingly laptops have good batteries anyway so plugging in is less necessary, my Macbook Pro does over 9 hours of use for instance.

 

[jon0844]

I have some laptops and tablets that throw up a warning that they will be charging slowly, but they do charge (and indeed as warned, very slowly). In some cases the power is insufficient to both power and charge, but if you are in a bind then you can at least give some extra juice as long as you don't use the device at the same time.

 

[dgl]

The OP is plain wrong in saying iDevices won't charge from USB A because they will, I have an iPhone and iPad and only ever charge them from USB A. If a specific USB A port doesn't charge them it's just because it's underspecified, not because it's USB A.

Laptops yes, but that requires a lot more power that the alternator of a 156 (say) may not be able to provide. I seem to recall that conversion to LED lighting was necessary to free up enough power to do USBs on 150s and 156s. And increasingly laptops have good batteries anyway so plugging in is less necessary, my Macbook Pro does over 9 hours of use for instance.

Of course apple had to use USB A-Lightening/30 pin cables once the EU brought in their previous phone charging standard as it was the only way, I understand, they were allowed to keep using their own connector standards. The idea being is that the Apple supplied charger could work with something else with only the cable needing replacement.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Of course apple had to use USB A-Lightening/30 pin cables once the EU brought in their previous phone charging standard as it was the only way, I understand, they were allowed to keep using their own connector standards. The idea being is that the Apple supplied charger could work with something else with only the cable needing replacement.

Apple charger cables have for a very long time had USB A on one end. I think only the very early ones used Firewire, but that went away fairly quickly.

The newest ones are USB C, but as phones are no longer supplied with a charger relatively few people will have them. It's quite a nice design with folding pins, to be fair, good for carrying in a pocket for use on the train if you need to! (I have one as it was supplied with my iPad but I'm not sure they do any more).