Should we go back into lockdown at this point?

[C J Snarzell]

The biggest problem we now face is that we are entering the winter months and the flu season is around the corner. I see the danger area in several parts -

- Flu weakens the immune system and if the flu sufferer also gets Covid it could put them in very grave danger.

- There is bound to be confusion with people getting flu symptoms, panicking by assuming they have Covid, then we have too many people descending on testing stations with nothing more than a common cold.

- A school child gets a runny nose and a fever - the teacher panics and sends all the class home to self isolate.

I think it's fair to say that the education system will be in a shattered state for sometime. Teachers and staff are emptying classrooms and in some cases schools at the hint of a Covid case. Once the dust settles, the children return, only for another pupil with 'symptoms' that clears the building again. It's an endless cycle.

I overheard someone saying earlier today that the government may look at implementing measures where people will still work and go to school/colleges but all aspects of socialising/leisure outside your household will be forbidden. If that happens, the hospitality industry will be gone by 2021. Public Houses and restaurants will not be able to operate if that is the case.

This will bring me back round to my previous post about civil unrest - people are very frustrated and angry at losing livelihoods and businesses.

Boris Johnson is sitting on a ticking time bomb if he enforces another lockdown. His only sensible solution now is to go for a Swedish style approach and leave the rule of six in place.

CJ

 

[Baxenden Bank]

The biggest problem we now face is that we are entering the winter months and the flu season is around the corner. I see the danger area in several parts -

- Flu weakens the immune system and if the flu sufferer also gets Covid it could put them in very grave danger.

- There is bound to be confusion with people getting flu symptoms, panicking by assuming they have Covid, then we have too many people descending on testing stations with nothing more than a common cold.

- A school child gets a runny nose and a fever - the teacher panics and sends all the class home to self isolate.

I think it's fair to say that the education system will be in a shattered state for sometime. Teachers and staff are emptying classrooms and in some cases schools at the hint of a Covid case. Once the dust settles, the children return, only for another pupil with 'symptoms' that clears the building again. It's an endless cycle.

I overheard someone saying earlier today that the government may look at implementing measures where people will still work and go to school/colleges but all aspects of socialising/leisure outside your household will be forbidden. If that happens, the hospitality industry will be gone by 2021. Public Houses and restaurants will not be able to operate if that is the case.

This will bring me back round to my previous post about civil unrest - people are very frustrated and angry at losing livelihoods and businesses.

Boris Johnson is sitting on a ticking time bomb if he enforces another lockdown. His only sensible solution now is to go for a Swedish style approach and leave the rule of six in place.

CJ

As regards my boldened part of your post:
The education factory is going to have to come to terms with this issue. There will always be a child, somewhere in a school, with COVID like symptoms. You simply cannot have a continuous cycle of temporarily re-opening but being predominantly closed. But think of Karen's hysterical post and grumpy face in the local rag when a school doesn't 100% react to a potential case.

I don't have an answer for them by the way!

Boarding schools, where the whole institution can lock down?
Open air classrooms, bring your own scarf and heavy dufflecoat?
Floor to ceiling partitioned classrooms with individual pupil cubicles - where the child stays all day, then gets collected on a strict timed basis by parents?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Boarding schools, where the whole institution can lock down?
Open air classrooms, bring your own scarf and heavy dufflecoat?
Floor to ceiling partitioned classrooms with individual pupil cubicles - where the child stays all day, then gets collected on a strict timed basis by parents?

I'd say find a way to achieve 1m+ distancing, (the + being either masks all day or partitions of some kind, with a traditional classroom layout used). It should be achievable using either a 2 or 3 day a week approach (if the latter there'd need to be Saturday school for some), with project work being given for the other days.

With 1m+, each ill child would only require the immediately adjacent ones to isolate, not whole classes/year groups.

 

[bramling]

The biggest problem we now face is that we are entering the winter months and the flu season is around the corner. I see the danger area in several parts -

- Flu weakens the immune system and if the flu sufferer also gets Covid it could put them in very grave danger.

- There is bound to be confusion with people getting flu symptoms, panicking by assuming they have Covid, then we have too many people descending on testing stations with nothing more than a common cold.

- A school child gets a runny nose and a fever - the teacher panics and sends all the class home to self isolate.

I think it's fair to say that the education system will be in a shattered state for sometime. Teachers and staff are emptying classrooms and in some cases schools at the hint of a Covid case. Once the dust settles, the children return, only for another pupil with 'symptoms' that clears the building again. It's an endless cycle.

I overheard someone saying earlier today that the government may look at implementing measures where people will still work and go to school/colleges but all aspects of socialising/leisure outside your household will be forbidden. If that happens, the hospitality industry will be gone by 2021. Public Houses and restaurants will not be able to operate if that is the case.

This will bring me back round to my previous post about civil unrest - people are very frustrated and angry at losing livelihoods and businesses.

Boris Johnson is sitting on a ticking time bomb if he enforces another lockdown. His only sensible solution now is to go for a Swedish style approach and leave the rule of six in place.

CJ

I’m not prepared to forego leisure activities, in particular those which are outdoors based. If the police want to chase me through fields then go for it, there won’t be enough of them to do that for everyone.

It has to be Sweden-style, there’s just no other workable policy.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I'd say find a way to achieve 1m+ distancing, (the + being either masks all day or partitions of some kind, with a traditional classroom layout used). It should be achievable using either a 2 or 3 day a week approach (if the latter there'd need to be Saturday school for some), with project work being given for the other days.

With 1m+, each ill child would only require the immediately adjacent ones to isolate, not whole classes/year groups.

It did occur to me that school buildings are there for 24 hours per day and only used for what, 8 hours max? Plus there are 7 days in the week and not 5. However, as with the Nightingale Hospitals, you can't magic up the extra staff just like that, and it would rather mess up home life for families with kids attending school like shift-workers. Certainly worth some consideration though - 0730 to 1130, 1200 to 1600, 1630 to 2030 over seven days gives 21 sessions - four for each year group in secondary school with early Sunday left free, plus decent homework.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It did occur to me that school buildings are there for 24 hours per day and only used for what, 8 hours max? Plus there are 7 days in the week and not 5. However, as with the Nightingale Hospitals, you can't magic up the extra staff just like that, and it would rather mess up home life for families with kids attending school like shift-workers. Certainly worth some consideration though - 0730 to 1130, 1200 to 1600, 1630 to 2030 over seven days gives 21 sessions - four for each year group in secondary school with early Sunday left free, plus decent homework.

Indeed. What this highlights is that there are options. Unfortunately neither the Government nor schools appear to have had the nouse to start thinking about that somewhere around June time, once it became apparent that this wasn't all going to be done and dusted in time for September.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I’m not prepared to forego leisure activities, in particular those which are outdoors based. If the police want to chase me through fields then go for it, there won’t be enough of them to do that for everyone.

It has to be Sweden-style, there’s just no other workable policy.

On my country walks (direct from home) during full lockdown, I did see far more police patrols than I have ever seen before. It seemed as though every time if left a field to join a lane there was a police car passing. I did wonder whether a curtain twitcher was reporting me, or that they had some way of tracking me (smart phone)! But they seemd to reduce as restrictions were relaxed.

 

[bramling]

Indeed. What this highlights is that there are options. Unfortunately neither the Government nor schools appear to have had the nouse to start thinking about that somewhere around June time, once it became apparent that this wasn't all going to be done and dusted in time for September.

This is what gets me. One would have expected brainstorming to have been going on behind the scenes to try and find solutions. I’ve had the impression that this hasn’t been happening, but formed the opinion it must be happening behind the scenes. It’s becoming very clear that’s not the case.

What on earth does Gavin Williamson actually do?

 

[thejuggler]

Re schools. Daughter's school had a single case in one class of a school year. All in that class have now been tested and 50% have Covid, as does the teacher. They have only been back 2.5 weeks.

 

[Richard Scott]

It did occur to me that school buildings are there for 24 hours per day and only used for what, 8 hours max? Plus there are 7 days in the week and not 5. However, as with the Nightingale Hospitals, you can't magic up the extra staff just like that, and it would rather mess up home life for families with kids attending school like shift-workers. Certainly worth some consideration though - 0730 to 1130, 1200 to 1600, 1630 to 2030 over seven days gives 21 sessions - four for each year group in secondary school with early Sunday left free, plus decent homework.

How do you propose teaching different year groups? Many teachers in secondary school will have year 7 through to 13 on their timetable. You can't expect staff just to teach one year group as won't work. Will just demoralise teaching staff.

 

[Bletchleyite]

On my country walks (direct from home) during full lockdown, I did see far more police patrols than I have ever seen before. It seemed as though every time if left a field to join a lane there was a police car passing. I did wonder whether a curtain twitcher was reporting me, or that they had some way of tracking me (smart phone)! But they seemd to reduce as restrictions were relaxed.

I didn't really see any enforcement, but then around MK you can walk around the Redways and these only ever see Police in the event of a serious crime, e.g. a sexual offence.

This is what gets me. One would have expected brainstorming to have been going on behind the scenes to try and find solutions. I’ve had the impression that this hasn’t been happening, but formed the opinion it must be happening behind the scenes. It’s becoming very clear that’s not the case.

What on earth does Gavin Williamson actually do?

Watch Homes under the Hammer? (Sorry, referring to another thread on what people do when WFH)

Re schools. Daughter's school had a single case in one class of a school year. All in that class have now been tested and 50% have Covid, as does the teacher. They have only been back 2.5 weeks.

That's clearly not sustainable. They have to find solutions for distancing.

 

[Richard Scott]

Re schools. Daughter's school had a single case in one class of a school year. All in that class have now been tested and 50% have Covid, as does the teacher. They have only been back 2.5 weeks.

No they don't 50% may have SARS-CoV-2. Doubt many, if any, will develop full Covid-19.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How do you propose teaching different year groups? Many teachers in secondary school will have year 7 through to 13 on their timetable. You can't expect staff just to teach one year group as won't work. Will just demoralise teaching staff.

If distancing was implemented, you wouldn't need to do that.

And dare I say "diddums" about demoralising teachers? We are all demoralised by this whole thing; it's like a different version of wartime. Suck it up and do your job. If that job has to change a little bit due to the emergency that's going on[1], that's life.

[1] "It's still going on" (Holly, Red Dwarf)

 

[Baxenden Bank]

This is what gets me. One would have expected brainstorming to have been going on behind the scenes to try and find solutions. I’ve had the impression that this hasn’t been happening, but formed the opinion it must be happening behind the scenes. It’s becoming very clear that’s not the case.

What on earth does Gavin Williamson actually do?

Please, ask me an easy one first. How about how do we achieve world peace and end hunger?

Re schools. Daughter's school had a single case in one class of a school year. All in that class have now been tested and 50% have Covid, as does the teacher. They have only been back 2.5 weeks.

It could be suggested that some individuals, at the highest level, have not let go of their herd immunity strategy. Allowing that to happen via 'the kids must be educated' has some merit, being difficult to argue against - what, you don't what the kids to learn?

 

[Richard Scott]

If distancing was implemented, you wouldn't need to do that.

And dare I say "diddums" about demoralising teachers? We are all demoralised by this whole thing; it's like a different version of wartime. Suck it up and do your job. If that job has to change a little bit due to the emergency that's going on[1], that's life.

[1] "It's still going on" (Holly, Red Dwarf)

Stop being so arrogant. People are doing their jobs. I'm not telling people how to do their jobs and not up to you either. It's only an emergency because the hysteria that's been created and that some people want to carry on.

 

[Bikeman78]

Do you not feel you are cutting off your nose to spite your face?

Everyone here showing off about how they aren't sticking to the rules only results in the rules lasting longer

Yes you might not agree to the rules but they are more likely to end if people stuck to them

I don't think that's true. Unless the number of cases drops to zero, it will keep coming back.

 

[Huntergreed]

I don't think that's true. Unless the number of cases drops to zero, it will keep coming back.

Precisely, the more people that follow the rules, the longer this goes on, and the longer the rules are in place, as we need as many as possible to catch it to build immunity (pending a vaccine, anyway, which we can't wait for as we've literally trashed the economy and our entire society trying to do so far)

 

[Megafuss]

I have to be honest and say the thought of a Second lockdown is extremely depressing . The first one was bad enough for people's mental health. A second one would tip a lot of people over the edge with worries about jobs, finance and not seeing loved ones again.

A second lockdown should be seen as a failure of Government and how it has handled the crisis since the Cummings affair. I accept that mistakes will be made, but unforced errors such as the Track and Trace app are proving costly. This won't be popular but a lockdown should also be seen as failure of us in society for not following relatively simple instructions. We know what the first lockdown was like, so in some ways we only have ourselves to blame if it gets that far.

 

[Bikeman78]

That is a very good point. When my grandmother shuffled off about 10 years ago at the ripe old age of 96, the home she was in told us that she was one of their longest term residents ever. She was in there for three years.

I think my great grandmother was in a home for three years. She hated it. Why would anyone want to prolong the amount of time they spend in such a place?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think my great grandmother was in a home for three years. She hated it. Why would anyone want to prolong the amount of time they spend in such a place?

Personally, I hope I'm taken out by some sort of quick respiratory infection before I get to that stage. When I can't look after myself and cease to be making mental sense[1] I've lost interest in living, TBH. I wish we could have "living wills" to deal with that; maybe by then we will have. But to some, COVID will have been quick, welcome relief.

[1] Er, OK, you know what I mean

 

[brad465]

This won't be popular but a lockdown should also be seen as failure of us in society for not following relatively simple instructions. We know what the first lockdown was like, so in some ways we only have ourselves to blame if it gets that far.

While yes there was non-compliance that won't have helped, it's worth remembering "it all kicked off" in less than 2 weeks. There were only 10 days between Cheltenham and the start of lockdown, less than the 14 day self isolation period seen to capture almost all incubations, while pubs and schools only closed 3 days before lockdown. Yes some mass gatherings and other events were being postponed/called off before the Government mandated them, but there was still a lot of activity that will have aided the virus transmission. Therefore, one can argue, by the time lockdown was introduced, normal behaviour that wasn't illegal/ill-advised at the time had already significantly increased cases.

 

[Bikeman78]

I find the comparison to Sweden interesting as they have a significantly higher per-captia case rate and only slightly lower per-captia death rate than the UK, despite their much more compliant population and better healthcare system.

Any sign of a second wave in Sweden?

 

[yorksrob]

They did exactly what to prevent this & why the "communist China" jibe?

Exactly what are you implying? Are you saying that because I said we should listen to what Attenborough said in his documentary, that I am in some way "communist".

Please clarify your brief reply.

Why are you banging on to us about wet markets and the wildlife trade when it was without our power to influence.

Is that brief enough. ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Stop being so arrogant. People are doing their jobs. I'm not telling people how to do their jobs and not up to you either. It's only an emergency because the hysteria that's been created and that some people want to carry on.

I don't think most people would want to go into a situation where getting it was near guaranteed. Even if in a low risk age group, there's still the risk of "long COVID" and other post-viral unpleasantness. (I have post-viral asthma, developed it age 38, it's an utter nuisance and I'd far rather not have it).

But back to teachers, I was maybe a bit heavy there, but if your job is to teach and you normally teach years 7 to 11, but for a few months you have to teach only year 8, then that's such a minor change to your working practices that I don't think it's really something that they can validly object to.

 

[initiation]

I have to be honest and say the thought of a Second lockdown is extremely depressing . The first one was bad enough for people's mental health. A second one would tip a lot of people over the edge with worries about jobs, finance and not seeing loved ones again.

I agree with this. Since seeing the news last night (that is making out a second lockdown is inevitable) i've been incredibly depressed. I just feel drained and that it is pointless. This is coming from someone who has never suffered any mental health issues before.

This won't be popular but a lockdown should also be seen as failure of us in society for not following relatively simple instructions. We know what the first lockdown was like, so in some ways we only have ourselves to blame if it gets that far.

This is where I disagree. Compliance with the lockdown and wider restrictions has been very very high. What instructions haven't been people following?

I blame any second lockdown on the government not having a plausible strategy and coming clean with the populace about the actual relative risks compared to other diseases and the wider impact of the measures taken.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is where I disagree. Compliance with the lockdown and wider restrictions has been very very high. What instructions haven't been people following?

Primarily, it seems, any form of social distancing when meeting people outside their household indoors.

 

[yorkie]

I agree with this. Since seeing the news last night (that is making out a second lockdown is inevitable) i've been incredibly depressed. I just feel drained and that it is pointless. This is coming from someone who has never suffered any mental health issues before.

I've felt similar at various points. After having recently recovered, I now feel low again.

I'm furious at the pro-lockdown brigade, and I cannot easily forgive them. If anyone wants to argue with me, I've done plenty of research and am up for an argument; I am absolutely confident that those who are desperate for authoritarian measures only reach those conclusions due to a lack of knowledge on their part.

 

[Bikeman78]

Re schools. Daughter's school had a single case in one class of a school year. All in that class have now been tested and 50% have Covid, as does the teacher. They have only been back 2.5 weeks.

Yet presumably none of them are at death's door?

Personally, I hope I'm taken out by some sort of quick respiratory infection before I get to that stage. When I can't look after myself and cease to be making mental sense[1] I've lost interest in living, TBH. I wish we could have "living wills" to deal with that; maybe by then we will have. But to some, COVID will have been quick, welcome relief.

[1] Er, OK, you know what I mean

Completely agree. To my mind, once someone goes into a care home, they are just waiting to die. The food looks awful and, in my experience, there are usually buzzers or alarms going off all the time. That would drive me insane, assuming I hadn't gone deaf.

 

[Reliablebeam]

I've felt similar at various points. After having recently recovered, I now feel low again.

I'm furious at the pro-lockdown brigade, and I cannot easily forgive them. If anyone wants to argue with me, I've done plenty of research and am up for an argument; I am absolutely confident that those who are desperate for authoritarian measures only reach those conclusions due to a lack of knowledge on their part.

My anger and rage levels are becoming uncontrollable and talking to my colleagues I'm not the only one.

We were just starting to recover at my place and had some optimism for the next couple of months. I had even spent some time in the office block. Now this all looks very flaky. Some of my colleagues are pretty blind to the danger we are in funding wise. And even we decide to try and stagger through somehow, there's no point at all if everything around us is shuttered and we 'enjoy' going in to work and then get locked back in our houses. Meanwhile the twits in the flat below me on furlough smoke their wacky baccy and start drinking at 11am whilst I sit through another one of these b*strd Zoom meetings.

Edit- I didn't realise the Idiot in Chief, the fop haired buffoon was on my site today. I would dearly loved to tell him what I think of him to his face. The cretin.

 

[bramling]

My anger and rage levels are becoming uncontrollable and talking to my colleagues I'm not the only one.

We were just starting to recover at my place and had some optimism for the next couple of months. I had even spent some time in the office block. Now this all looks very flaky. Some of my colleagues are pretty blind to the danger we are in funding wise. And even we decide to try and stagger through somehow, there's no point at all if everything around us is shuttered and we 'enjoy' going in to work and then get locked back in our houses. Meanwhile the twits in the flat below me on furlough smoke their wacky baccy and start drinking at 11am whilst I sit through another one of these b*strd Zoom meetings.

Same at my place. Frustration has gradually turned to fury, for a number of reasons.

I’m not prepared to work through another lockdown as a “key worker”.