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Should We Leave the EU?

Do you believe the UK should stay in or leave the EU?

  • Stay in the EU

    Votes: 229 61.4%
  • Leave the EU

    Votes: 120 32.2%
  • I don't know

    Votes: 24 6.4%

  • Total voters
    373
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yorksrob

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I think that's an important point. A lot of people seem to be saying that they want something like the common market or a free trade area but without any of the associated political or regulatory framework - but I rather suspect that if those people got what they wanted, they'd probably be horrified by the results: A free market without some common regulatory framework would mean multinational corporations able to pick and choose wherever the lowest wages/lowest safety standards/etc. are, and Governments would be forced into a race to the bottom to keep companies in their own countries. It seems to me that if you want a common, free, market, and don't want a nightmare of individual Governments being held hostage to unethical businesses, then you have to accept some corresponding degree of regulatory union.

I'm not sure that necessarily follows.

France, for example, seems to be very competent at defending its way of life, note the recent National debate about the maximum working week. Unfortunately, the Common Market in its present form, seems to have been championing private finance over the rights of countries to run their own services as they see fit.

Of course, there needs to be some regulation to impose standards, however, for issues that are truly important, agreement needs to be much wider than Europe. What would be the point of having an agreement on corporate taxation that didn't include the USA for example.
 
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Busaholic

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I'm not sure that necessarily follows.

France, for example, seems to be very competent at defending its way of life, note the recent National debate about the maximum working week. Unfortunately, the Common Market in its present form, seems to have been championing private finance over the rights of countries to run their own services as they see fit.

Of course, there needs to be some regulation to impose standards, however, for issues that are truly important, agreement needs to be much wider than Europe. What would be the point of having an agreement on corporate taxation that didn't include the USA for example.

I don't want us to leave the EU, at this juncture anyway, but I guess if it happens, as seems increasingly possible, then it will be 'interesting' to see how we make our own way in the world, probably losing Scotland in the process. Old Chinese curses, though, increasingly come to mind.
 

yorksrob

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I don't want us to leave the EU, at this juncture anyway, but I guess if it happens, as seems increasingly possible, then it will be 'interesting' to see how we make our own way in the world, probably losing Scotland in the process. Old Chinese curses, though, increasingly come to mind.

Well, it might well be that the consequences aren't worth the risk of leaving. However, I can't pretend that I agree with the direction the EU seems to be taking.
 

miami

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3 Oct 2015
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2,785
Location
UK
Well, it might well be that the consequences aren't worth the risk of leaving. However, I can't pretend that I agree with the direction the EU seems to be taking.

Have you contacted your MEP? Which part of the EU is going in the wrong direction? What direction is it going in?
 

Steveman

Member
Joined
24 Feb 2016
Messages
405
Would you like to share with us your evidence that Obama regards the UK with disdain?

Obama has been by far the most anti-British president in modern times.

I think a lot of his disdain for this country comes about because of his accusation that his grandfather was abused by British troops when he was a Mau Mau terrorist in Kenya.

The brutal treatment of BP by Obama who he insisted on calling "British Petroleum" (it has been BP for 15 years) which helped to cause a 50% drop in its value threatening British pensions.

He emphatically backed Argentina when they fancied turfing the locals out of what he liked to call the Malvinas.

Made no secret of his wish for us to join a federal Europe and abandon all sovereignty.This undermines and insults the UK.The US ambassador in London has said all major British key issues should "be run through Europe."

Offered the Russians secrets of the British nuclear capability to get them to sign the START treaty.

One of his right hand men said after Gordon Browns humiliating visit " There’s nothing special about Britain. You’re just the same as the other 190 countries in the world. You shouldn’t expect special treatment."

To the incredulous French President who has not shown any respect for Obama whatsoever he said at a press conference “We don’t have a stronger friend and stronger ally than Nicolas Sarkozy, and the French people.”
This went down really badly in America with radio stations being deluged with angry callers stating that the US had no love for the French but always did for us.
This sudden love for the French has come out of nowhere and is factually wrong especially as the French knifed the US in the back over Iraq.

Obama has hardly mentioned this country in any major speech since he became president or indeed before.

He really doesn't like us but then most of America hates him.
 

Busaholic

Established Member
Joined
7 Jun 2014
Messages
9,810
Obama has been by far the most anti-British president in modern times.

I think a lot of his disdain for this country comes about because of his accusation that his grandfather was abused by British troops when he was a Mau Mau terrorist in Kenya.

The brutal treatment of BP by Obama who he insisted on calling "British Petroleum" (it has been BP for 15 years) which helped to cause a 50% drop in its value threatening British pensions.

He emphatically backed Argentina when they fancied turfing the locals out of what he liked to call the Malvinas.

Made no secret of his wish for us to join a federal Europe and abandon all sovereignty.This undermines and insults the UK.The US ambassador in London has said all major British key issues should "be run through Europe."

Offered the Russians secrets of the British nuclear capability to get them to sign the START treaty.

One of his right hand men said after Gordon Browns humiliating visit " There’s nothing special about Britain. You’re just the same as the other 190 countries in the world. You shouldn’t expect special treatment."

To the incredulous French President who has not shown any respect for Obama whatsoever he said at a press conference “We don’t have a stronger friend and stronger ally than Nicolas Sarkozy, and the French people.”
This went down really badly in America with radio stations being deluged with angry callers stating that the US had no love for the French but always did for us.
This sudden love for the French has come out of nowhere and is factually wrong especially as the French knifed the US in the back over Iraq.

Obama has hardly mentioned this country in any major speech since he became president or indeed before.

He really doesn't like us but then most of America hates him.

If calling BP British Petroleum really did cause its share price to drop 50% then I think there were other factors present?

You seriously think the USA and Dubya were right about Iraq, and France wrong?

'Most of America' managed to vote in greater numbers for him than they did for John McCain and, later, Mitt Romney. As per usual, in recent years at least, he was of course constrained by the unworkable political system that prevents a president from carrying out the policies on which he/she has been elected.

A lot of hostility to Obama has been whipped up by Trump and his supporters, like branches of the Klu Klux Klan, which Trump has refused to disown.
 

Steveman

Member
Joined
24 Feb 2016
Messages
405
If calling BP British Petroleum really did cause its share price to drop 50% then I think there were other factors present?

No doubt there were, but the point is why did Obama keep emphasizing the "British" bit when it hasn't been called that for years.


You seriously think the USA and Dubya were right about Iraq, and France wrong?

Not particularly but again that's not the point, why call the French his best friends when they plainly aren't.


A lot of hostility to Obama has been whipped up by Trump and his supporters, like branches of the Klu Klux Klan, which Trump has refused to disown.

What has Trump not disowning the KKK got to do with America not wanting such a lame duck president, they didn't like him before Trump said a word.





In a typical piece of arrogant opportunism the EU has today called the rescue of a French sailor by the RNLI a prime example of "cross border co-operation"

Because as we all know before we joined the EU we never rescued any foreign sailors.
 
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furnessvale

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In a typical piece of arrogant opportunism the EU has today called the rescue of a French sailor by the RNLI a prime example of "cross border co-operation"

Because as we all know before we joined the EU we never rescued any foreign sailors.

Especially not French ones! :D
 

TheKnightWho

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Location
Oxford
In a typical piece of arrogant opportunism the EU has today called the rescue of a French sailor by the RNLI a prime example of "cross border co-operation"

Because as we all know before we joined the EU we never rescued any foreign sailors.

So according to you, every single good thing the EU does would have happened anyway, but apparently none of the bad (or "bad") things :roll:

You really are living in fantasy land.
 

Steveman

Member
Joined
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Messages
405
So according to you, every single good thing the EU does would have happened anyway, but apparently none of the bad (or "bad") things :roll:

You really are living in fantasy land.


I don't think I said that at all did I ?

In this case the EU has nothing whatsoever to be bothering itself with about our lifeboat picking up a French sailor.
Why put out tweets gushing about EU cross border co-operation when it has nothing to do with the EU.
 
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tony_mac

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Did they?
Or did the tweet say it was an example of the NEED for cross-border cooperation?

BTW - the EU has funded cross-border lifeboat training for the RNLI. But, I suppose we can assume that they didn't need the training, because the English are naturally the best...

http://rnli.org/NewsCentre/Pages/RNLI-Flood-Rescue-Team-return-from-major-European-training-exercise.aspx
http://rnli.org/NewsCentre/Pages/RNLI-Flood-Rescue-Team-takes-part-in-EU-training-exercise.aspx
https://www.erasmusplus.org.uk/casestudy/rnli
 

Steveman

Member
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Messages
405
Did they?
Or did the tweet say it was an example of the NEED for cross-border cooperation?

BTW - the EU has funded cross-border lifeboat training for the RNLI. But, I suppose we can assume that they didn't need the training, because the English are naturally the best...

http://rnli.org/NewsCentre/Pages/RNLI-Flood-Rescue-Team-return-from-major-European-training-exercise.aspx
http://rnli.org/NewsCentre/Pages/RNLI-Flood-Rescue-Team-takes-part-in-EU-training-exercise.aspx
https://www.erasmusplus.org.uk/casestudy/rnli

No need for the sarcasm about the RNLI you might need them one day.
 

NSEFAN

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Location
Southampton
Steveman said:
No doubt there were, but the point is why did Obama keep emphasizing the "British" bit when it hasn't been called that for years.
Presumably to assert that the massive environmental disaster caused by the company had absolutely nothing to do with the USA, even though it must have been American laws that permitted the company to operate there in the first place? Finger pointing is standard practice in politics. Sometimes I think we only let EDF run in the UK so that we can blame the French for our pee-pee-poor energy policy. :lol:
 

Johnuk123

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2,802
I think the sarcasm is not about the RNLI, but about you. And you missed it.:roll:

Probably was but it doesn't alter the fact that the EU claiming that the British RNLI rescuing a French sailor was a product of cross border co-operation was a lie. Our lifeboat crews are perfectly capable of operating without politics being inserted from the EU.
 

tony_mac

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The sarcasm was about you and your opinions, not the RNLI.
To be fair, my sarcasm was meant to be aimed rather more widely than a single person (but not including the RNLI, or the RSPB, or the NSPCC, or the RSSB, etc.)

I probably shouldn't have bothered replying in the first place - when the debate becomes a series of completely trivial issues cropped from the outraged website of 'a popular newspaper', there isn't really much point adding to it.
 

Steveman

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To be fair, my sarcasm was meant to be aimed rather more widely than a single person (but not including the RNLI, or the RSPB, or the NSPCC, or the RSSB, etc.)

I probably shouldn't have bothered replying in the first place - when the debate becomes a series of completely trivial issues cropped from the outraged website of 'a popular newspaper', there isn't really much point adding to it.

Always a good tactic to use the old -"I'm not interested anyway, can't be bothered, it's all made up, never happened anyway" route.
Never fails that one when you don't have an answer.
 

TheKnightWho

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Always a good tactic to use the old -"I'm not interested anyway, can't be bothered, it's all made up, never happened anyway" route.
Never fails that one when you don't have an answer.

Exactly what you did when called out for your misinterpretation! Your self-awareness is clearly on top form today ;)
 

Antman

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This mornings dreadful events at Brussels Airport highlight the reality of allowing free movement throughout Europe
 

TheKnightWho

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This mornings dreadful events at Brussels Airport highlight the reality of allowing free movement throughout Europe

And what might that be? Most terrorist attacks are carried out by home-grown citizens. Next you'll be advocating shutting down free movement between counties - after all, setting up checkpoints all over the country is clearly the solution to all of our problems. Civil liberties, trade and other advantages be damned.

Except that would be ridiculous, just as checkpoints all over Europe to catch a handful of people like this would be.
 
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Antman

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I was wondering when this thread would see the Brussels attacks raised. It seems that UKIP have already suggested that a Brexit would prevent such attacks here...


Quite. I presume that the internet will still exist in the event of a Brexit?

I don't think anybody would seriously suggest it would prevent them but it would certainly make them less likely. Or shall we just wait for a similar atrocity here and then think about closing the stable door long after the horse has bolted?
 

NSEFAN

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Antman said:
I don't think anybody would seriously suggest it would prevent them but it would certainly make them less likely.
Why would it make it less likely? The internet already provides a platform for religious zealots to spread their propaganda and target the vulnerable without needing to even be in the same country. Hence terrorist attacks usually being carried out by natives.
 
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