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Should We Leave the EU?

Do you believe the UK should stay in or leave the EU?

  • Stay in the EU

    Votes: 229 61.4%
  • Leave the EU

    Votes: 120 32.2%
  • I don't know

    Votes: 24 6.4%

  • Total voters
    373
Status
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yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
41,847
Location
Yorks
This has been posted by a friend of mine and is shared with his permission. I'm not going to say exactly what he does, but suffice to say, it affects pretty much all of us, every single day.

So let me see if can make this a little more real. My job is international. I talk. I rant. I blog. I listen. The business we conduct changes things. Because we change lives. Not just of corporations and "business" - but public services, customer services and economic growth. We do it with technology. But we affect and evolve people, process and culture all over the world. It’s why I do what I do.
-----------
During the first week of June I spent time with some of the most published and frankly well renowned consultants and technologists in Europe. I listened. For a living they drive international business and customer imperatives. They focus primarily on economics, sustainment and growth.
Bottom line?
UK was the butt of every joke, comment and subtle jibe related to consumer and public issues. All due to the socioeconomic and business impacts of 'Brexit.' (randomly when one of the delegates said 'Brexit' out loud in a presentation, it coincided with a fire alarm - I can tell you that ‘Brexit’ became the go-to laughing-stock from then onwards). This was from more than 40 senior consultants from Europe, Middle East and Africa (EMEA). The CEO-level thought leaders. Commercial experts. They represent significant history and experience in almost every industry.
Separately during that week, I also helped host a customer dinner with European CEO's and CISO's (leaders who run everything from small critical organisations through to global governments including civil and social leaders). As a nation we were ridiculed and in one case labelled us as "a ridiculous political caricature akin to 'Spitting Image'" - They were laughing at us in cahoots with key global independent economists from far reaching lands across the globe.
Is this who we are now?
Because that week contained the most embarrassing days for me when faced with public and industry leaders. Senior people in EMEA businesses, across commercial, politics and public services within EU and global economics. To paraphrase one point that was handed to me over dinner:
"You are portraying yourselves no better than Trump supporters....and as if it were the 1980s"
This aligns with what I’m told daily by European CEO/CISOs. It also comes from my teams (who touch the top 100-200 companies in Europe and EMEA) who can relay verbatim the exact same view point, handed to them by their local press, from interviews they give and by our customers.
------------
We look insane for considering an exit from the EU. Especially when so many “Leave” arguments are tantamount to nothing more than nationalism. To be clear I'm not relaying my opinion. Nor am I referencing media, or propaganda. This is not slurred figures or ill-conceived and misconstrued interpretations of facts. I am not "re-ing" someone else's re-posts or re-tweets.
This is real life boys and girls and its terrifying. I see a true and actual snapshot of how we are viewed by EMEA and US leaders - and it is damning! 'Brexit' and primarily our conduct during this referendum, resonates so negatively with our trade partners, customers and industry experts, that already we have business deals being placed on hold. Business that contributes highly to our gross domestic product. This is across all markets from beyond our borders. All until the UK becomes "safer to do business with again. "
That’s “safer" by the way. NOT safe.
Because the impact of our campaigns in fiction and slander is so prolific and internationally visible that we are being told we are a trading and business risk to Europe (and world wide). We are now an uncertainty, a dangerous bet to trade on or build relations with. Everyone is looking in - with microscopic focus - at our referendum debacle. I can tell you right now that we’ve broken the trust. To highlight, here are a few of the lighter things I heard from across Europe, Middle East and Africa:
"Unanimously you are a joke in and to Europe both socially and in the realm of business economics...not to mention the rest of the world".
"You look ridiculous to everyone to every industry, across every political landscape"
"From education and healthcare, through to transportation and manufacturing, through to retail, hospitality, government services, the U.K. can't be and aren't trusted right now"
-------------
We are a joke...
A bad one.
And all due to "Brexit" - which even now has damned the concept of a Kingdom United. It has taken our standing as a world leader in international markets and trashed it. Perceptions which are rife include everything from "incompetence" through to words such as; bigotry, ignorance, arrogance, innocence, naivety and flat out racism
These are the words of global businesses and country leaders responsible for human beings. As I commute Europe reading and listening, they are the words from services providers who track from healthcare all the way to international banks. There’s one common theme. Everyone over the waters are staring at us in disbelief.
So whilst our own campaigners, government and pro-Leavers squabble for position and power amongst their PR nonsense (in the face some of seriously false fabricated fiction), the world watches on as our emotions, demographics and prejudices are preyed upon, to drive their outcome. It has become a game of sensational exploitation, designed to drive emotive outcry. Personally these are the worst set of "facts" in my lifetime to ever be placed in front of me about such a critical decision. By BOTH sides I might add. Consequently, I'm left hearing international commentary about, “what have you done?”. The campaigns are referred to as nothing more than a bunch of peddled nonsense and that the 'facts' are no more credible than the early Wild West peddlers of 'Amazing, Life-Changing Tonics, to cure all ills."
In short, I've never been more embarrassed of my home during all my time working and leading in international business. Never more disappointed in how we conduct ourselves on a global stage. Because all of this is fallacy which prays upon weakness, fears, hopes, dreams - and bigotry. We created campaigns which helped those so inclined, to go forward and misconstrue what it means to be 'independent' and to be “British.” And that is wrong.
----------------
‪#‎IN‬ is the only logical next step towards a global community. A “something” we will actually never see in our generation. Or perhaps even beyond our children after us. Therefore, it is our children's children who will have to strive to unite, in the face of overwhelming odds from; 'terror in the name of religion' to 'environmental unity to sustain our very species.' Play that through for a moment to our immediate obligations such as equality, safety, human rights, international cooperation. How can ‪#‎OUT‬ be a decision in the face of these needs?
This opinion here – and it is mine and I hold to it - represents my ideals.
In earnest I believe global unity is the core to our evolution and our survival, for our children and our children's children's. When I become a parent, I want to be proud of the fact we helped continue that journey towards one community, without borders and boundaries. Without prejudice. I don't want to be the generation that takes a step in the wrong direction. A step towards destroying that dream and my ideals.
Certainly not in and amidst a haze of propaganda and lies.
-----------------
Consider for a moment that this isn't our world, our time. For most of us will be dust before humanity gets a grip on itself. It is though, a potential beginning of the future, both on this silly little island and beyond. It's what might just define our potential.
The reality is out there. Go and speak to anyone outside the UK who lived the adoption of the Euro. If you think kicking Europe out of Britain is the answer, think again. Go find your own facts. Find the truth. Don't listen to the incessantly propagated nonsense, the social media “re-ers” of the Leave and Remain camps. Go listen to people. Go understand.
…Because here we stand on the precipice. The precipice of enabling a continuing international standing. We can maintain it for us but in doing so we create much much more for our children, and our children’s children. The European Union could unite us all and go on to be the foundation of a "Global Union"
So, I'm in
Because how could anyone be anything else?

They all sound positively dreadful.

It doesn't surprise me about the sort of people who run the world these days.

Would all these sort of people be saying the same things if we hadn't joined in the first place. No doubt they are hell bent on pushing us all into TTIP.
 
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Domh245

Established Member
Joined
6 Apr 2013
Messages
8,425
Location
nowhere
I'm concerned how Britain will glue itself back together after tomorrow. We're a fractured country, with feelings running very high on both sides. Even with a remain vote, this referendum has been a terrible blow to the UK that will take a long time to recover, all because of a tory party that refused to split in the 90s.

In the event of a vote to remain, I think that people will go on about it until the next big news event happens. After that, it'll likely start to die down. In the event of Brexit, I'm not sure it will be as easy.

I actually think the time has dragged and it will be a relief just to get it over and done with tomorrow.

I think we can all agree on that!
 

Harbornite

Established Member
Joined
7 May 2016
Messages
3,627
In the event of a vote to remain, I think that people will go on about it until the next big news event happens. After that, it'll likely start to die down. In the event of Brexit, I'm not sure it will be as easy.



I think we can all agree on that!


I wish that would be the case, but methinks there will be a lot of claptrap being bandied about once the result is announced.
 

Antman

Established Member
Joined
3 May 2013
Messages
6,840
74% chance of Remain win say bookies.

Nearly everybody I've spoken to wants out and the various posters in windows suggest the same but maybe it's different in other parts of the country?
 
Last edited:

Johnuk123

Established Member
Joined
19 Mar 2012
Messages
2,801
Nearly everybody I've spoken to wants out and the various posters in windows suggest the same but maybe it's different in other parts of the country?

The bookies are saying that simply on the bets they've taken.
Large bets of an average of £450 in London and the south but more but smaller £75 bets in the north.
Although some very large multiple thousand bets have skewed the forecast in favour of Remain.
 
Last edited:

LateThanNever

Member
Joined
18 Jul 2013
Messages
1,027
Nearly everybody I've spoken to wants out and the various posters in windows suggest the same but maybe it's different in other parts of the country?
Oh dear! Reality is often unpalatable but there needs to be a practical examination of the facts and to think what might be the consequences for us and the rest of Europe, which, it must not be forgotten, was the cause of two world wars and which cost Britain, among others, very dear.
We weren’t ‘in Europe’ then but we ended up very much in it – in all senses.
 

dosxuk

Established Member
Joined
2 Jan 2011
Messages
2,109
Nearly everybody I've spoken to wants out and the various posters in windows suggest the same but maybe it's different in other parts of the country?

Unlike a general election, the ways that people indicate they are intending to vote is very closely aligned to who they are, their age, level of education, and social class.

You very well may have not come across many people who want to remain, but there are a good number of people who can say the same the other way.

I've only come across a couple of people who were voting leave, but they've since changed their mind after various "facts" were proven to not be. One actually finally changed their mind after Gove said "We've all had enough of experts", realising it for the ridiculous statement it was...

If Leave win tomorrow, it will only be because Remain ran the worst political campaign in history. They've spent their entire time trying to paint Leave as liars rather than actually talking about or demonstrating why the EU is good for us today. It's amazing how many people start questioning the stuff Leave say when you stop calling them liars, and actually show them the evidence which proves how important the EU is to us right now.
 

Busaholic

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Jun 2014
Messages
14,671
Nigel Farage has pulled out (or been pulled?) from the Channel 4 last gasp debate currently on for 'unspecified reasons'. I await the first editions of tomorrow's papers with interest!
 

Antman

Established Member
Joined
3 May 2013
Messages
6,840
Nigel Farage has pulled out (or been pulled?) from the Channel 4 last gasp debate currently on for 'unspecified reasons'. I await the first editions of tomorrow's papers with interest!

Family reasons apparently. Unconfirmed reports that a member of his family was assaulted.
 

Flying Snail

Established Member
Joined
12 Dec 2006
Messages
1,858
This has been posted by a friend of mine and is shared with his permission. I'm not going to say exactly what he does, but suffice to say, it affects pretty much all of us, every single day.

So let me see if can make this a little more real. My job is international. I talk. I rant. I blog. I listen. The business we conduct changes things. Because we change lives. Not just of corporations and "business" - but public services, customer services and economic growth. We do it with technology. But we affect and evolve people, process and culture all over the world. It’s why I do what I do.
-----------
During the first week of June I spent time with some of the most published and frankly well renowned consultants and technologists in Europe. I listened. For a living they drive international business and customer imperatives. They focus primarily on economics, sustainment and growth.
Bottom line?
UK was the butt of every joke, comment and subtle jibe related to consumer and public issues. All due to the socioeconomic and business impacts of 'Brexit.' (randomly when one of the delegates said 'Brexit' out loud in a presentation, it coincided with a fire alarm - I can tell you that ‘Brexit’ became the go-to laughing-stock from then onwards). This was from more than 40 senior consultants from Europe, Middle East and Africa (EMEA). The CEO-level thought leaders. Commercial experts. They represent significant history and experience in almost every industry.
Separately during that week, I also helped host a customer dinner with European CEO's and CISO's (leaders who run everything from small critical organisations through to global governments including civil and social leaders). As a nation we were ridiculed and in one case labelled us as "a ridiculous political caricature akin to 'Spitting Image'" - They were laughing at us in cahoots with key global independent economists from far reaching lands across the globe.
Is this who we are now?
Because that week contained the most embarrassing days for me when faced with public and industry leaders. Senior people in EMEA businesses, across commercial, politics and public services within EU and global economics. To paraphrase one point that was handed to me over dinner:
"You are portraying yourselves no better than Trump supporters....and as if it were the 1980s"
This aligns with what I’m told daily by European CEO/CISOs. It also comes from my teams (who touch the top 100-200 companies in Europe and EMEA) who can relay verbatim the exact same view point, handed to them by their local press, from interviews they give and by our customers.
------------
We look insane for considering an exit from the EU. Especially when so many “Leave” arguments are tantamount to nothing more than nationalism. To be clear I'm not relaying my opinion. Nor am I referencing media, or propaganda. This is not slurred figures or ill-conceived and misconstrued interpretations of facts. I am not "re-ing" someone else's re-posts or re-tweets.
This is real life boys and girls and its terrifying. I see a true and actual snapshot of how we are viewed by EMEA and US leaders - and it is damning! 'Brexit' and primarily our conduct during this referendum, resonates so negatively with our trade partners, customers and industry experts, that already we have business deals being placed on hold. Business that contributes highly to our gross domestic product. This is across all markets from beyond our borders. All until the UK becomes "safer to do business with again. "
That’s “safer" by the way. NOT safe.
Because the impact of our campaigns in fiction and slander is so prolific and internationally visible that we are being told we are a trading and business risk to Europe (and world wide). We are now an uncertainty, a dangerous bet to trade on or build relations with. Everyone is looking in - with microscopic focus - at our referendum debacle. I can tell you right now that we’ve broken the trust. To highlight, here are a few of the lighter things I heard from across Europe, Middle East and Africa:
"Unanimously you are a joke in and to Europe both socially and in the realm of business economics...not to mention the rest of the world".
"You look ridiculous to everyone to every industry, across every political landscape"
"From education and healthcare, through to transportation and manufacturing, through to retail, hospitality, government services, the U.K. can't be and aren't trusted right now"
-------------
We are a joke...
A bad one.
And all due to "Brexit" - which even now has damned the concept of a Kingdom United. It has taken our standing as a world leader in international markets and trashed it. Perceptions which are rife include everything from "incompetence" through to words such as; bigotry, ignorance, arrogance, innocence, naivety and flat out racism
These are the words of global businesses and country leaders responsible for human beings. As I commute Europe reading and listening, they are the words from services providers who track from healthcare all the way to international banks. There’s one common theme. Everyone over the waters are staring at us in disbelief.
So whilst our own campaigners, government and pro-Leavers squabble for position and power amongst their PR nonsense (in the face some of seriously false fabricated fiction), the world watches on as our emotions, demographics and prejudices are preyed upon, to drive their outcome. It has become a game of sensational exploitation, designed to drive emotive outcry. Personally these are the worst set of "facts" in my lifetime to ever be placed in front of me about such a critical decision. By BOTH sides I might add. Consequently, I'm left hearing international commentary about, “what have you done?”. The campaigns are referred to as nothing more than a bunch of peddled nonsense and that the 'facts' are no more credible than the early Wild West peddlers of 'Amazing, Life-Changing Tonics, to cure all ills."
In short, I've never been more embarrassed of my home during all my time working and leading in international business. Never more disappointed in how we conduct ourselves on a global stage. Because all of this is fallacy which prays upon weakness, fears, hopes, dreams - and bigotry. We created campaigns which helped those so inclined, to go forward and misconstrue what it means to be 'independent' and to be “British.” And that is wrong.
----------------
‪#‎IN‬ is the only logical next step towards a global community. A “something” we will actually never see in our generation. Or perhaps even beyond our children after us. Therefore, it is our children's children who will have to strive to unite, in the face of overwhelming odds from; 'terror in the name of religion' to 'environmental unity to sustain our very species.' Play that through for a moment to our immediate obligations such as equality, safety, human rights, international cooperation. How can ‪#‎OUT‬ be a decision in the face of these needs?
This opinion here – and it is mine and I hold to it - represents my ideals.
In earnest I believe global unity is the core to our evolution and our survival, for our children and our children's children's. When I become a parent, I want to be proud of the fact we helped continue that journey towards one community, without borders and boundaries. Without prejudice. I don't want to be the generation that takes a step in the wrong direction. A step towards destroying that dream and my ideals.
Certainly not in and amidst a haze of propaganda and lies.
-----------------
Consider for a moment that this isn't our world, our time. For most of us will be dust before humanity gets a grip on itself. It is though, a potential beginning of the future, both on this silly little island and beyond. It's what might just define our potential.
The reality is out there. Go and speak to anyone outside the UK who lived the adoption of the Euro. If you think kicking Europe out of Britain is the answer, think again. Go find your own facts. Find the truth. Don't listen to the incessantly propagated nonsense, the social media “re-ers” of the Leave and Remain camps. Go listen to people. Go understand.
…Because here we stand on the precipice. The precipice of enabling a continuing international standing. We can maintain it for us but in doing so we create much much more for our children, and our children’s children. The European Union could unite us all and go on to be the foundation of a "Global Union"
So, I'm in
Because how could anyone be anything else?

Because simply the people in the bottom 1/2 of the economy do not believe that those leaders you are lauding give one ***** about them or their prosperity. When they hear all these people sneering at their concerns they know full well that whatever agenda they are pushing it isn't one that will improve the lives of those who have the least.

IMO Brexit will not benefit the worse off but the fact that many people are completely cynical about the claims and motives of those with power money and influence is completely understandable. While Brexit would undoubtedly be a bad thing for my country, if it happens I may find more than a little enjoyment out of the drubbing it will give to many in power across Europe and hope that it will create a push for a more democratic and inclusive EU.

As it seems that the vote will be close either way I wonder what the rest of you think will be the reaction, will the losing side take their medicine or will they keep on pushing for their side? Which side are more likely to accept the result going against them?
 

miami

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3,262
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Family reasons apparently. Unconfirmed reports that a member of his family was assaulted.

That doesn't sound good. Poor chap doesn't have much luck with votes - recalling his plane crash a few years ago the day before the election.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Joined
17 Apr 2011
Messages
34,137
Location
A typical commuter-belt part of north-west England
IMO Brexit will not benefit the worse off but the fact that many people are completely cynical about the claims and motives of those with power money and influence is completely understandable. While Brexit would undoubtedly be a bad thing for my country, if it happens I may find more than a little enjoyment out of the drubbing it will give to many in power across Europe and hope that it will create a push for a more democratic and inclusive EU.

In which of the EU countries with any "clout" behind them do you believe that there will be those who will espouse your obviously sincerely held view that "a push for a more democratic and inclusive EU" will be created?

As far as I am aware, Utopia have not been granted membership of the EU just yet.
 

yorksrob

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Joined
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Messages
41,847
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Yorks
In which of the EU countries with any "clout" behind them do you believe that there will be those who will espouse your obviously sincerely held view that "a push for a more democratic and inclusive EU" will be created?

As far as I am aware, Utopia have not been granted membership of the EU just yet.

So you're saying there's no chance of reform of the institution.
 

Senex

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Joined
1 Apr 2014
Messages
2,891
Location
York
As it seems that the vote will be close either way I wonder what the rest of you think will be the reaction, will the losing side take their medicine or will they keep on pushing for their side? Which side are more likely to accept the result going against them?
If Brexit loses, we have 40 years of evidence to shew that they will not accept the decision and will keep on arguing. If Remain loses, why should they accept the decision given the way Brexit have behaved over those last 40 years?

(Yes, I know the argument is that we joined the EEC and that has changed considerably into the EU. But we have been involved in all stages of the changes and have agreed to them, both for good (the rebate) or ill (signing away powers like JM, TB, and GB) -- so we have had our say and we are ourselves in part responsible for the shape of the club and its rules as they now are. Or is it Brexit's argument that there should have been no change at all to the EEC without further referendums?)

The thing that scares me most is not actually an exit, though that will be a pretty dreadful fate, but the prospect of being ruled by a Tory party dominated by people like Johnson, Gove, Duncan-Smith, Cash, etc.
 

anme

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Joined
8 Aug 2013
Messages
1,777
If you're undecided, just vote Leave for the lulz.

Are you still arguing that the impact of a certain number of people arriving somewhere is not proportional to the number of people already there?
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Joined
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Messages
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Location
A typical commuter-belt part of north-west England
So you're saying there's no chance of reform of the institution.

"Reform" is more of an actuality, whereas "a push for a more democratic and inclusive EU" is a matter a tad different in meaning.

But you knew that all along and obvioulsy thought it was a good idea evidentially to celebrate this Most Holy Day of the Blessed Referendum to make your posting to spice up the thread...:D
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The thing that scares me most is not actually an exit, though that will be a pretty dreadful fate, but the prospect of being ruled by a Tory party dominated by people like Johnson, Gove, Duncan-Smith, Cash, etc.

Are you not one of the belief that "Kind Uncle Jeremy" and his National Executive Committee will most certainly be at the helm of the next Government...:D

I am surprised to see you included the RMT personage of Mick Cash in your list.
 
Last edited:

Senex

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Joined
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Messages
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Location
York
Are you not one of the belief that "Kind Uncle Jeremy" and his National Executive Committee will most certainly be at the helm of the next Government...:D

I am surprised to see you included the RMT personage of Mick Cash in your list.
I'm inclined to think that the Tory Brexiteers' self-interest will mean that they keep a lame-duck Tory government going through to the 2020 election, simply because even they must realise that if they precipitated an election now the Tories would be slaughtered and out of power for a generation and the blame would be entirely theirs. If "Kind Uncle Jeremy" is still there in 2020, I think he will stand a good chance of winning against the mess that the Tories will be after this referendum, whichever side wins.

As for "Cash", I meant Bill, not Mick -- but then you knew that, didn't you?
icon7.gif
 

Senex

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Joined
1 Apr 2014
Messages
2,891
Location
York
That is what Ireland does. Any substantial changes to the EU membership is classed as a change to the Constitution and is decided by referendum.
Yes indeed, and given that a substantial change to the nature of EU membership is effectively a change to the national constitution, I think it's a very good idea. But our politicians never wanted a system like that, so nothing similar was ever set up and the right to approve changes, small or substantial, remained solely with parliament .....
 

Geezertronic

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14 Apr 2009
Messages
4,113
Location
Birmingham
Well my offshore colleagues in India (born & bred) who have come over to the UK on Work Visas previously have already sent their postal votes off, and my offshore colleagues from India who are in the UK now on Work Visas will vote today as well - they will all be voting Remain as I understand it which has made the senior bosses happy with them. Not quite sure why they get a vote tbh
 

Gutfright

Member
Joined
22 Jan 2016
Messages
639
That is what Ireland does. Any substantial changes to the EU membership is classed as a change to the Constitution and is decided by referendum.

And if they don't vote the "correct" way, they have another one.

billederlisbon-2dtry-2dagain.png
 
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