Should we offer advice to 'short fare' / 'doughnutting' fraudsters?

[MCSHF007]

Understand and appreciate the advice given to those ("probably") unwittingly caught out by expired railcard/closd tickets offices/TVM issues etc. but not really comfortable with aiding and abetting deliberate fares evaders (especailly short ticketing/dougnutting).

We all love 'the railway' either as employees or enthusiasts so surely these fraudsters should not be offered/advised re loopholes following their deliberate actions in depriving the railway of much-needed revenue.

 

[spyinthesky]

I somewhat agree with your sentiments whilst loopholes are caused in many instances by someone not doing their job correctly. Enforcement of Laws/ Bylaws procedures must be correct before we hang the innocent and if highlighted in these forums then some of these loopholes may get closed.

 

[fandroid]

I don't think there's any harm in providing general advice on what the law is and the processes these fare evaders can expect to be subject to. I'm not happy with advice in searching for loopholes in the procedures in those cases.
However, advice in the Disputes and Prosecution sub-forum is given to a wide range of people in a wide range of situations. Anyone can read those and there are plenty of cases where the official action looks particularly harsh and advice on exploiting loopholes does seem appropriate in helping to challenge that harsh action.

That said, many of those who have been cheating come across as naïve and foolish and terrified.

 

[yorkie]

Understand and appreciate the advice given to those ("probably") unwittingly caught out by expired railcard/closd tickets offices/TVM issues etc. but not really comfortable with aiding and abetting deliberate fares evaders (especailly short ticketing/dougnutting).

If you are suggesting any forum members have done this , that is a very serious allegation; any such allegations should not be posted on any forum thread. Instead any such post should be reported (by using the report system; click the link at the bottom of the relevant post)

We all love 'the railway' either as employees or enthusiasts so surely these fraudsters should not be offered/advised re loopholes following their deliberate actions in depriving the railway of much-needed revenue.

What loopholes do you have in mind?

If there are loopholes which you think should be closed, it may be worth creating a separate thread.

 

[[.n]]

Understand and appreciate the advice given to those ("probably") unwittingly caught out by expired railcard/closd tickets offices/TVM issues etc. but not really comfortable with aiding and abetting deliberate fares evaders (especailly short ticketing/dougnutting).

We all love 'the railway' either as employees or enthusiasts so surely these fraudsters should not be offered/advised re loopholes following their deliberate actions in depriving the railway of much-needed revenue.

We tend not to know the full facts to make these judgements - if you personally have a moral reason to not assist - then don't!
Over distance travel tickets can also be "illegal" just as much as "short faring" - it often depends on context.

I think we take the right balance - nobody condones outright fare evasion, but gives valuable advice to remedy past wrongs and what to do for the future.

What about the "deliberate" mischarging carried out by the industry itself - whether through poor training/ignorance/wilfulness of some staff to sell the appropriate/correct ticket or no availability of advances, or by charging for train fares for bus journeys [aka engineering works] or by withdrawal of "loopholes" etc

 

[bramling]

Understand and appreciate the advice given to those ("probably") unwittingly caught out by expired railcard/closd tickets offices/TVM issues etc. but not really comfortable with aiding and abetting deliberate fares evaders (especailly short ticketing/dougnutting).

We all love 'the railway' either as employees or enthusiasts so surely these fraudsters should not be offered/advised re loopholes following their deliberate actions in depriving the railway of much-needed revenue.

Don’t have an issue with it myself. It’s only procedural advice being given. It’s no different to workplace situations where someone has done something wrong, correct procedures should still be followed. Hence why unions will still represent people in any situation, even if simply to ensure the company follows its own procedures. Even if one doesn’t agree with the ethics of a particular case, if correct procedures aren’t followed then next time someone who hasn’t done anything wrong might find themselves on the receiving end of something dubious.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Understand and appreciate the advice given to those ("probably") unwittingly caught out by expired railcard/closd tickets offices/TVM issues etc. but not really comfortable with aiding and abetting deliberate fares evaders (especailly short ticketing/dougnutting).

I’m not sure anyone aids or abets fare evasion, as @yorkie says it’s best to report any such posts to the mods.

People come here when they’ve been caught, and it is entirely reasonable that people are advised on the processes and procedures and are advised where the railways fail to follow the correct processes and procedures. After all, in the interests of justice is vitally important that the railways do their jobs properly.

People also come here looking to legitimately save money on rail fares, and advice will only ever be ways of saving money within the rules of the railways.

 

[mike57]

I think this issue is down to each individual potential poster to make a judgement. If I think someone has been caught, and appears to be have been trying to defraud rather than just caught out (rail card left at home etc.) then I would not offer any advice, even if I were able to. Each person will have a view of the actions of the OP asking for advice. This is probably as should be, let each person apply thier own moral and legal judgements. Only in extreme cases would I consider reporting a post, for example where someone was seeking advice on how to defraud.

 

[30907]

I have been reading and posting on the forum concerned for many years.

I cannot recall seeing any advice that significantly differs from that regularly offered by @Hadders. This is just as valid for repeat offenders as for one-off cases.

The only exception has been where the offence alleged does not precisely fit the situation, and there it is a matter of judgement whether pursuing the issue is in the OP's interests, and usually there is some disagreement among members on this.

 

[Starmill]

Understand and appreciate the advice given to those ("probably") unwittingly caught out by expired railcard/closd tickets offices/TVM issues etc. but not really comfortable with aiding and abetting deliberate fares evaders (especailly short ticketing/dougnutting).

We all love 'the railway' either as employees or enthusiasts so surely these fraudsters should not be offered/advised re loopholes following their deliberate actions in depriving the railway of much-needed revenue.

As others have said, the view among everyone or nearly everyone who posts here is that people should be complying with the law, including in regards to travelling on trains. There's no evidence I've seen of people giving assistance to those committing railway-related offences.

 

[Royston Vasey]

Understand and appreciate the advice given to those ("probably") unwittingly caught out by expired railcard/closd tickets offices/TVM issues etc. but not really comfortable with aiding and abetting deliberate fares evaders (especailly short ticketing/dougnutting).

I see your point but nobody has ever pro-actively posted a “how to save fares by donutting” thread (to my knowledge of 15+ years here) which would rightly not last very long. Helping to “rehabilitate” people who have made a mistake honestly or dishonestly, but are always keen to learn their lesson I think is a good thing and very different to aiding and abetting. We probably save the railway thousands with our advice just from those cases which post here, and I am sure the open and honest nature of our threads also put off a proportion of those searching for “will I get prosecuted for short faring?”

 

[Starmill]

I see your point but nobody has ever pro-actively posted a “how to save fares by donutting” thread (to my knowledge of 15+ years here) which would rightly not last very long. Helping to “rehabilitate” people who have made a mistake honestly or dishonestly, but are always keen to learn their lesson I think is a good thing and very different to aiding and abetting. We probably save the railway thousands with our advice just from those cases which post here, and I am sure the open and honest nature of our threads also put off a proportion of those searching for “will I get prosecuted for short faring?”

Indeed. The importance of paying the correct fare at the correct time is commonly pointed out.

 

[Hadders]

Understand and appreciate the advice given to those ("probably") unwittingly caught out by expired railcard/closd tickets offices/TVM issues etc. but not really comfortable with aiding and abetting deliberate fares evaders (especailly short ticketing/dougnutting).

We all love 'the railway' either as employees or enthusiasts so surely these fraudsters should not be offered/advised re loopholes following their deliberate actions in depriving the railway of much-needed revenue.

We do not aid and abet fare evasion. What we do if offer advice to people who come here following a ticketing irregularity report and explain what will happen next and the likley outcome. We also try to check that the train companies have followed the correct procedures.

Many cases end up with out of court settlements which is a benefit to everyone involved. The railway gets more money than they would have done had the matter ended up in court, fewer cases going through the court system is a benefit for the courts who are overwhelmed and the person pays what they often see as a punitive sum of money to settle the case. You could argue that our advice actually increases rather than deprives the railway of income.

I don't understand your point about loopholes. Please can you expand on it and I will be happy to respond.