Should we start mining our own coal and use it in power stations until we can rely on renewable energy to supply all of our needs?

[Bald Rick]

Oh, I completely agree. I was thinking more that it demonstrates that we are not going to eliminate our dependency on fossil fuels simply by turning the temperature down on our washing machines. I don't think it's widely recognised how much of our electricity is generated from gas.

Around half. And roughly around half of our energy goes to heating and cooling.

38% of our electricity is generated in gas power stations (The last year).

I am absolutely convinced, with no evidence whatsoever, that large scale deployment of solar hot water heating and solar PV on domestic, public and business properties can make a very significant dent in our carbon footprint.

 

[najaB]

38% of our electricity is generated in gas power stations (The last year).

I am absolutely convinced, with no evidence whatsoever, that large scale deployment of solar hot water heating and solar PV on domestic, public and business properties can make a very significant dent in our carbon footprint.

That makes the potential impact of a Manhattan Project style push to get the UK insulated even greater. I can easily see that being able to get our gas usage down to under 20%.

 

[Ediswan]

That's always a fun one. All the electrons they've paid for will be from renewables, but the electrons that are heating their tea could be from anywhere. Is it a con? Opinions vary.

The question is based on a false premise. For any given appliance, it is always the same electrons. Typical electron drift velocity is 1mm/second. As this is 50Hz AC, they don't get very far before reversing.

 

[najaB]

The question is based on a false premise. For any given appliance, it is always the same electrons*. Typical electron drift velocity is 1mm/second. As this is 50Hz AC, they don't get very far before reversing.

You are technically correct, which is the best type of correct. But the question still stands - is it a con to say that the power they've paid for was 100% generated using renewables, whereas the power they've used was generated using a mix of sources?

*It may even be the same electron.

 

[Ediswan]

You are technically correct, which is the best type of correct. But the question still stands - is it a con to say that the power they've paid for was 100% generated using renewables, whereas the power they've used was generated using a mix of sources?

E.ON say my tariff is "100% Renewable". I didn't pick it for that, so I have never looked to see what wobbly definition they are using. Do some people believe the claims ? Probably.

A bit more science: Energy doesn't flow in wires

 

[DelayRepay]

E.ON say my tariff is "100% Renewable". I didn't pick it for that, so I have never looked to see what wobbly definition they are using. Do some people believe the claims ? Probably.

My tariff from Bulb says the same. I didn't pick it for that reason but thought it was a good thing. I did understand how it worked though, and never believed that on a still night my electricity was somehow being generated by solar or wind.

I don't doubt there are some people on these tariffs who, before the current cost issues arose, thought there was no need to be careful about using energy because it was all 'green'.

 

[Bald Rick]

That makes the potential impact of a Manhattan Project style push to get the UK insulated even greater. I can easily see that being able to get our gas usage down to under 20%.

the renewables we have coming on line in the next 5 years will do that.

 

[brad465]

the renewables we have coming on line in the next 5 years will do that.

Have we got any energy storage capacity coming online soon? I believe Drax are planning to install a large battery unit for 200MW where one of the coal units is currently, but that's all.

 

[Bald Rick]

Have we got any energy storage capacity coming online soon? I believe Drax are planning to install a large battery unit for 200MW where one of the coal units is currently, but that's all.

Loads!

In power terms, the amount under construction will nearly double current capacity, taking us to 3GW. There is a further ~30GW consented or in planning.

Of course power output is only part of the equation, capacity is the other. Typically most battery sites have 1 hour storage, although newer proposals are moving to 2 hours. At macro level, if all this capacity is built, it will mostly deal with intra day peaks, perhaps spreading load over a week at best.

There are two mega storage projects for the GB market that I’m aware of.

Firstly Coire Glas pumped hydro, near Fort William. Consented and in the Pre construction phase. That’s 1.5GW and 30GWh, and will be able to ‘recharge’ from the various wind farms acriss the Highlands at times of lower demand.

Secondly, the XLinks project, which has a massive solar and wind farm, linked to a 20GWh battery, in Morocco but for exclusive use of GB consumers via a very long extension lead.

 

[Ediswan]

Of course power output is only part of the equation, capacity is the other.

It should be compulsory to quote both. All the articles I could find on Drax quoted MW, nothing about how long for.

Secondly, the XLinks project, which has a massive solar and wind farm, linked to a 20GWh battery, in Morocco but for exclusive use of GB consumers via a very long extension lead.

Thanks for that. I had seen such as a concept, didn't realise anybody was trying to make it happen.

The unsung hero is HVDC transmission (rather than HVAC). Lower line losses. No need to synchronise grids. With very long cables, avoids the problems of standing waves and resonance.

 

[Bald Rick]

Thanks for that. I had seen such as a concept, didn't realise anybody was trying to make it happen.

some big backers. And with current (pun intended) electricity prices, the financial case will be very, very lucrative. They have consent to connect to the Grid, and also consent for the cable factory at Hunterston. Getting consent for a solar and wind farm the size of Surrey, albeit in Morocco, is an unknown quantity for me!

The unsung hero is HVDC transmission (rather than HVAC). Lower line losses. No need to synchronise grids. With very long cables, avoids the problems of standing waves and resonance.

All the interconnectors are HVDC. We’ll have nearly 10GW in service by the end of next year, with more in the pipeline (Near pun intended!]

 

[Ediswan]

All the interconnectors are HVDC. We’ll have nearly 10GW in service by the end of next year, with more in the pipeline (Near pun intended!]

Understood. I just think HVDC transmssion technology deserves more recognition.

 

[D365]

Was it only drax that was converted? I thought there was a few.
Are batteries really the future? I’d like to see hydrogen fuel cells rolled out.

Fuel cells still rely on batteries and electricity...

 

[Sm5]

Secondly, the XLinks project, which has a massive solar and wind farm, linked to a 20GWh battery, in Morocco but for exclusive use of GB consumers via a very long extension lead.

fascinating project. Africa is by far the most sensible place for Solar power.
The only issue is protecting the cable, if its in international waters, its a defense issue, Ships are also known to have “accidents” cutting cables. if its inside European nation waters it becomes a political issue, especially if they suddenly want transit fees, or tap offs for their own use.

I assume this cable wont interfere (electrical wave interference or simple friction motion) with c30 transatlantic telco cables of Spain/Portugal or France as it crosses over them ?

 

[Bald Rick]

fascinating project. Africa is by far the most sensible place for Solar power.
The only issue is protecting the cable, if its in international waters, its a defense issue, if its inside European nation waters it becomes a political issue.

I assume this cable wont interfere (electrical wave interference or simple friction motion) with c30 transatlantic telco cables of Spain/Portugal or France as it crosses over them ?

I doubt that HVDC creates much interference. Besides we have several HVDC links around our shores already, where these issues have surely been resolved. Two to France, one to each of Belgium, the Netherlands and Norway, one to Ireland, another to Northern Ireland, one down the North Sea from Hunterston to Connah’s Quay, and finally one under construction to Denmark.

 

[Snow1964]

E.ON say my tariff is "100% Renewable". I didn't pick it for that, so I have never looked to see what wobbly definition they are using. Do some people believe the claims ? Probably.

A bit more science: Energy doesn't flow in wires

Of course the operating costs for renewable energy generation haven’t really changed over the last 5 years (ok, maybe allow 10-20% for inflation).

So if you are on a 100% renewable tariff, your electricity generation costs won’t go up much. Except the selling price has, because the renewables supplier has been able to put price up, as the alternative (gas fired power stations) are now costing double … triple …. loads more to run.

 

[BananaRepublic]

……..Besides we have several HVDC links around our shores already, where these issues have surely been resolved. Two to France, one to each of Belgium, the Netherlands and Norway, one to Ireland, another to Northern Ireland, one down the North Sea from Hunterston to Connah’s Quay, and finally one under construction to Denmark.

A third 1GW HVDC link to France has opened this year. ElecLink.
Rather than being laid on the sea bed, it runs through the Channel Tunnel.

 

[plugwash]

since March we have been net exporting as we are producing electricity, on average, more cheaply than much of Europe. France in particular has been taking our power in quantity.

Yes,

My understanding is that under normal circumstances you would burn the gas closer to the customers, but there is a lack of LNG import capacity in mainland Europe and a lack of gas pipeline capacity from the UK to the mainland. So LNG is being imported to the UK, burnt in UK power stations and then the electricity exported to the mainland.

 

[Bald Rick]

A third 1GW HVDC link to France has opened this year. ElecLink.
Rather than being laid on the sea bed, it runs through the Channel Tunnel.

Indeed. I’m assuming that this is less susceptible to security concerns as it’s not laid on/in the sea bed.

I can’t find a reliable source for when the IFA 1 (the interconnector to France that was damaged last year) gets back to full capacity, anyone know?

 

[brad465]

Today the full commissioning of Hornsea 2 offshore wind farm was announced, which adds another 1.4GW to our wind capacity. The next week is also looking rather windy so this will certainly test it out.

 

[Bald Rick]

Today the full commissioning of Hornsea 2 offshore wind farm was announced, which adds another 1.4GW to our wind capacity. The next week is also looking rather windy so this will certainly test it out.

Hornsea 2 has been generating for some time, as the turbines were progressively commissioned. What has been declared today is that the full generation capacity has been commissioned.

 

[E27007]

Given the energy crises and being decades away from being able to use renewable sources to cover all our energy needs, should the UK revert to coal?

the answer is yes, 1) new coal fired powerr stations are quite cheap and quick to build compared to nuclear, it is not impossible the Engineers could install exhaust cleansing systems on new build stations as a means of mitigating CO2 emiussions.
It is not 100% certain that man-made global warming is the guaranteed outcome, there is division within the scientific community over the issue, do we freeze to death or do we fry?

 

[Dai Corner]

the answer is yes, 1) new coal fired powerr stations are quite cheap and quick to build compared to nuclear, it is not impossible the Engineers could install exhaust cleansing systems on new build stations as a means of mitigating CO2 emiussions.
It is not 100% certain that man-made global warming is the guaranteed outcome, there is division within the scientific community over the issue, do we freeze to death or do we fry?

Or we could extract the gas under the ground using fracking techniques and burn it in our existing power stations.

 

[najaB]

the answer is yes, 1) new coal fired powerr stations are quite cheap and quick to build compared to nuclear, it is not impossible the Engineers could install exhaust cleansing systems on new build stations as a means of mitigating CO2 emiussions.

New wind and solar is even cheaper and quicker to build than coal fired power stations.

 

[Bald Rick]

the answer is yes, 1) new coal fired powerr stations are quite cheap and quick to build compared to nuclear, it is not impossible the Engineers could install exhaust cleansing systems on new build stations as a means of mitigating CO2 emiussions.

New wind and solar is even cheaper and quicker to build than coal fired power stations.

Exactly. And we’re already building it! The consents process for a major new coal fired power station would take 3-5 years to get through. In that time we’ll have 5 coal power stations worth of new wind and solar built.

It is not 100% certain that man-made global warming is the guaranteed outcome, there is division within the scientific community over the issue, do we freeze to death or do we fry?

The division is very, very uneven. About 99% of scientists say it is, 1% don’t. And most of the 1% are not climate scientists.

 

[DoubleLemon]

Is there any reason we are not going all in for tidal it's reliable. We have a lot of coastlines. It seems like a win win

 

[JamesT]

Is there any reason we are not going all in for tidal it's reliable. We have a lot of coastlines. It seems like a win win

It’s expensive, both in terms of materials compared to offshore wind, and the chicken-and-egg that there isn’t a production line to lower costs. There’s also potential environmental problems with tidal installations altering the marine landscape.

 

[Bald Rick]

Is there any reason we are not going all in for tidal it's reliable. We have a lot of coastlines. It seems like a win win

Very expensive. Environmentally difficult. Predictable, but (obviously) very peaky, and with the peaks moving through the day it is often at times it’s difficult to deal with.

 

[najaB]

Very expensive. Environmentally difficult. Predictable, but (obviously) very peaky, and with the peaks moving through the day it is often at times it’s difficult to deal with.

It's more troughy than peaky. There will be no generation around slack tide, but depending on the design the power curve can be fairly flat during the rising/falling tide.

 

[brad465]

Last night did there happen to be a short-lived burst of wind that's now subsided? Because according to the graph below, showing generation for the past day from the NG Live status site, wind power surged up overnight to almost 12GW, but then this morning plummeted back to 6GW with gas replacing it almost like-for-like. My guess is that wind power potential has maintained roughly the higher level, but its in the wrong places for meeting demand:

National Grid: Live

Shows the live status of Great Britain’s electric power transmission network

grid.iamkate.com