Should Wrexham redouble now occur following prison approval?

[headshot119]

You can have train queuing on the slow line prior to Saltney Junction so that would not improve anything.

You can even have one sat on the single line between Green Lane AHB and Saltney Junction, and another one waiting on the slow.

As a resident of Wrexham, I am very much in favor of the redoubling; until last week I was a regular commuter between Wrexham and Birkenhead, the amount of times I've been stuck at the Chester end waiting for a late runner coming north would need a lot of hands for me to count them on, though realistically I can only see them doing it partially Saltney Junction - Rossett, with associated line speed improvements to take it all up to 90MPH.

For instance at the moment the line speed through Wrexham General is 70MPH, though realistically a stopping train will never reach that before it needs to slow for the 30MPH PSR over 2418 point. It would be nice to think 2418 point could be renewed into something you could do 90MPH over on both legs.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Does anyone know of any spare DMUs?

Not a chance of one anywhere without cutting services elsewhere - until the electrification programmes delivers some cascades.....

Bridgend to Cardiff by the way is ATW (and Wales's) largest single passenger flow..difficult to think of it being 1 tph now ...

The Llandudno to Cardiff express!

 

[OxtedL]

The Llandudno to Cardiff express!

You also mentioned this a couple of days ago in another thread, but I can't find anything that matches this description.

What days and what time does this run?

 

[Gareth Marston]

You also mentioned this a couple of days ago in another thread, but I can't find anything that matches this description.

What days and what time does this run?

0830 Llandudno to Cardiff Monday to Friday. It duplicates other trains from The junction to Shrewsbury and then runs non stop to Newport often seen departing Shrewsbury with barely double figures aboard.

 

[OxtedL]

0830 Llandudno to Cardiff Monday to Friday. It duplicates other trains from The junction to Shrewsbury and then runs non stop to Newport often seen departing Shrewsbury with barely double figures aboard.

Thanks. Looks like it's a balancing move for an evening peak northbound service. So not a spare train.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Thanks. Looks like it's a balancing move for an evening peak northbound service. So not a spare train.

No the evening peak extras are 162x which is how they swap a 150 north and the 182x which is the loco hauled coming back.

 

[OxtedL]

That doesn't mean it isn't a balancing move.

Since they clearly aren't running any equivalent train northbound, it must be.

 

[paul1609]

I'm not familiar with this area but assuming Wrexham to Chester to be 12 miles and the stock to be a single 158 Unit the effect of increasing line speed from 70 to 90 would be to reduce times by around 20 secs. is this like to be cost effective?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Found myself picking up a Birmingham-Holyhead train at Chester today, bound for Flint.
The 158 was already packed from Wrexham, and was met by a big crowd on the platform.
I couldn't work out why it should be so busy in early afternoon.
Anyway, it would have filled a 4-car set, let alone a 2-car, and passengers had to be enticed off to use the following Llandudno service.
(In the airline industry, this would have been accompanied by a small bribe, not of course on our railways :cry: ) .
Anyway, what annoyed me most was the guard, who declared to anybody listening that it was all Virgin's fault for dumping a Voyager's-worth of Coast passengers onto his 2-car train.
Doesn't he know the timetable is fixed by DfT/WG?
He also forgets that the train would likely have been a 3-car 175 if they had not been purloined for the precious north-south Cardiff services.
And nothing about steadfast ATW/WG refusal to get more stock in service.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Found myself picking up a Birmingham-Holyhead train at Chester today, bound for Flint.
The 158 was already packed from Wrexham, and was met by a big crowd on the platform.
I couldn't work out why it should be so busy in early afternoon.
Anyway, it would have filled a 4-car set, let alone a 2-car, and passengers had to be enticed off to use the following Llandudno service.
(In the airline industry, this would have been accompanied by a small bribe, not of course on our railways :cry: ) .
Anyway, what annoyed me most was the guard, who declared to anybody listening that it was all Virgin's fault for dumping a Voyager's-worth of Coast passengers onto his 2-car train.
Doesn't he know the timetable is fixed by DfT/WG?
He also forgets that the train would likely have been a 3-car 175 if they had not been purloined for the precious north-south Cardiff services.
And nothing about steadfast ATW/WG refusal to get more stock in service.

Some of the Conductor announcements regarding delays on ATW are getting silly, last Tuesday the 0830 ex Piccadiy was 14 late into Shrewsbury and lost its path it then caught up with other traffic ahead and was held at block posts several times. The late running was blamed on a slow running freight train.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm not familiar with this area but assuming Wrexham to Chester to be 12 miles and the stock to be a single 158 Unit the effect of increasing line speed from 70 to 90 would be to reduce times by around 20 secs. is this like to be cost effective?

Not crunched the numbers myself but point taken, however the section alongside the A483 dual carriageway going across the English border needs fast running to show the road boys.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Some of the Conductor announcements regarding delays on ATW are getting silly, last Tuesday the 0830 ex Piccadiy was 14 late into Shrewsbury and lost its path it then caught up with other traffic ahead and was held at block posts several times. The late running was blamed on a slow running freight train.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Not crunched the numbers myself but point taken, however the section alongside the A483 dual carriageway going across the English border needs fast running to show the road boys.

The single line is 10.5 miles and the speed limit is 60.
Say 9 miles at the higher speed of 90 to make the maths easier.
That takes 9 minutes currently, and would take 6 afterwards.
Add a minute to clear each end and the section could be cleared in 8 minutes rather than 11.
More than a 25% increase in capacity.
Unless you have to stop at "Wrexham North", when you would be back where you started.

 

[Llanigraham]

Some of the Conductor announcements regarding delays on ATW are getting silly, last Tuesday the 0830 ex Piccadiy was 14 late into Shrewsbury and lost its path it then caught up with other traffic ahead and was held at block posts several times. The late running was blamed on a slow running freight train.

Which could be quite correct, as I know only too well.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Which could be quite correct, as I know only too well.

The conductor seemed to ignore the fact that the 175 had lost its path and was out of sequence south of salop I don't know why it was late into salop.

 

[paul1609]

The single line is 10.5 miles and the speed limit is 60.
Say 9 miles at the higher speed of 90 to make the maths easier.
That takes 9 minutes currently, and would take 6 afterwards.
Add a minute to clear each end and the section could be cleared in 8 minutes rather than 11.
More than a 25% increase in capacity.
Unless you have to stop at "Wrexham North", when you would be back where you started.

I think you are being far too optimistic with your calculations. A 158 on straight level track takes around 6 miles to reach 90 mph from a stop.
You would be looking to deaccelerte at the latest 3 miles before the stop. Looking at a map I reckon you'd be hard pushed to save more than a minute ovr this section wit the current rolling stock.

 

[The Planner]

Braking 3 miles out? why?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I think you are being far too optimistic with your calculations. A 158 on straight level track takes around 6 miles to reach 90 mph from a stop.
You would be looking to deaccelerte at the latest 3 miles before the stop. Looking at a map I reckon you'd be hard pushed to save more than a minute ovr this section wit the current rolling stock.

Just to clarify, the turnouts at either end of the single track are:
a very decent 50 at Saltney Jn across all lines
50 at Wrexham North (southbound), 30 (northbound)
No reason why these could not be improved (75 was mooted in the plan).

Some of the trains (Cardiffs mainly) are 175s.
No doubt the bank southbound would have an effect.
The single line is (or could be) on a better alignment than the original or new double track.
It's not particularly curved.

 

[paul1609]

Braking 3 miles out? why?

I,m not suggesting braking at 3 miles out just that normal practice would dictate that you would have a lower speed approaching the ends of the single track or indeed the junctions on the approach to Chester.
Are there any single track sections in the UK where the entrance/ exit is. 90 mph?
My understanding (I'm not an expert )is that TPWS is unable to provide protection at that speed.

 

[cle]

I would guess that the 'screws' would mainly drive, as they'd have early starts, night shifts etc which the train might not be suitable for.

They might also want to avoid all the visitors, if in uniform.

I don't see it as a huge traffic generator in itself - good as it may be for the local economy.

 

[The Planner]

Are there any single track sections in the UK where the entrance/ exit is. 90 mph?

Depends how you define entrance/exit, but Kemble is 90 in the up through the single line junction.

 

[Squaddie]

I don't see it as a huge traffic generator in itself - good as it may be for the local economy.

Hopefully it will boost the local economy, because Wrexham has been in decline for a long time, but the jobs created have to be weighed against the possible reluctance of manufacturing and service industries to move onto an industrial estate dominated by a huge prison.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Hopefully it will boost the local economy, because Wrexham has been in decline for a long time, but the jobs created have to be weighed against the possible reluctance of manufacturing and service industries to move onto an industrial estate dominated by a huge prison.

I'm familiar with the rather similar setup at Risley.
The old MoD site is now a big technology park (Birchwood) surrounded by new housing, and includes call centres, utility HQs and nuclear industry sites.
The prison is just down the road towards Culcheth.
It doesn't seem to have stopped development at all.
In fact if Wrexham Ind Est got the same profile as Birchwood/Risley it would be very pleased.
Birchwood station on the CLC route has a good business (not to the prison though) including TPE services.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Hopefully it will boost the local economy, because Wrexham has been in decline for a long time, but the jobs created have to be weighed against the possible reluctance of manufacturing and service industries to move onto an industrial estate dominated by a huge prison.

The £35 million link road finished last year is suppose to magically transform the estates fortunates but of course theres no sign of it happening. Modern businesses value skills, agglomeration effects and good core to periphery links for workers to travel in.

 

[merlodlliw]

The £35 million link road finished last year is suppose to magically transform the estates fortunates but of course theres no sign of it happening. Modern businesses value skills, agglomeration effects and good core to periphery links for workers to travel in.

Thats correct Gareth, the link road delayed for years is a great help to access the huge Industrial estate, the new jail on the Wrexham side wont stop companies from moving into the site in my opinion,as stated earlier Risley Prison did not have the effect of stopping development at Birchwood.

It would appear the majority of RF members who contributed to this thread,agree for operational reasons the line should be redoubled between Saltney and Rossett,a few don't think extra services between Wrexham and Chester are warranted, however I have to ask,out of interest since the line serving the village of Gowerton was redoubled this year,its station rebuilt and ATW announcing in May that 95 extra services a week will call at the village station,could this village of 9K generate so much extra footfall to warrant so many extra services,good for Gowerton to get so many services,I just ponder the question, I have to use Gowerton,as its the only other single track over five miles long in Wales to be redoubled this year and paid for by WG.
I might add this is not knocking other areas of Wales.

 

[paul1609]

Depends how you define entrance/exit, but Kemble is 90 in the up through the single line junction.

whats it on the down?

 

[TDK]

Just to clarify, the turnouts at either end of the single track are:
a very decent 50 at Saltney Jn across all lines
50 at Wrexham North (southbound), 30 (northbound)
No reason why these could not be improved (75 was mooted in the plan).

A train leaving Wrexham would never make 75mph by Wrexham North Junction approaching the single line. 50 probably at most.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The single line is (or could be) on a better alignment than the original or new double track.
It's not particularly curved.

The single line has some serious curves mid section that would have to be completely realigned/reprofiled to increase the line speed to 75mph
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think you are being far too optimistic with your calculations. A 158 on straight level track takes around 6 miles to reach 90 mph from a stop.
You would be looking to deaccelerte at the latest 3 miles before the stop. Looking at a map I reckon you'd be hard pushed to save more than a minute ovr this section wit the current rolling stock.

3 miles is not the distance you need to brake comfortably in step 2, no more than a mile would be well sufficient. What is your source on "6 miles to reach 90mph"?

 

[anthony263]

Thats correct Gareth, the link road delayed for years is a great help to access the huge Industrial estate, the new jail on the Wrexham side wont stop companies from moving into the site in my opinion,as stated earlier Risley Prison did not have the effect of stopping development at Birchwood.

It would appear the majority of RF members who contributed to this thread,agree for operational reasons the line should be redoubled between Saltney and Rossett,a few don't think extra services between Wrexham and Chester are warranted, however I have to ask,out of interest since the line serving the village of Gowerton was redoubled this year,its station rebuilt and ATW announcing in May that 95 extra services a week will call at the village station,could this village of 9K generate so much extra footfall to warrant so many extra services,good for Gowerton to get so many services,I just ponder the question, I have to use Gowerton,as its the only other single track over five miles long in Wales to be redoubled this year and paid for by WG.
I might add this is not knocking other areas of Wales.

I have pass through Gowerton during rush hour and there has been a good increase in passenger numbers. The extra services have helped since passengers traveling east of Swansea no longer have to drive into Swansea city centre and use high street station.

Gowerton is also a railhead for northern parts of the Gower as well as Lougher & Gorseinon. Llansamlet could do the exact same if it had a much better service than it does now hopefully electrification will do that

 

[TDK]

I,m not suggesting braking at 3 miles out just that normal practice would dictate that you would have a lower speed approaching the ends of the single track or indeed the junctions on the approach to Chester.
Are there any single track sections in the UK where the entrance/ exit is. 90 mph?
My understanding (I'm not an expert )is that TPWS is unable to provide protection at that speed.

TPWS can protect junction with a significant line speed reduction using both TPWS plus and standard. The TPWS can be set at 70mph approaching a 30mph ensuring the train does not breach the overlap or the reason for the speed restriction quite comfortably.

 

[The Planner]

whats it on the down?

90/100HST until the pointwork where it is 40, though I imgaine that is more a S&C issue than signalling.

 

[Gwenllian2001]

It would appear the majority of RF members who contributed to this thread,agree for operational reasons the line should be redoubled between Saltney and Rossett,a few don't think extra services between Wrexham and Chester are warranted, however I have to ask,out of interest since the line serving the village of Gowerton was redoubled this year,its station rebuilt and ATW announcing in May that 95 extra services a week will call at the village station,could this village of 9K generate so much extra footfall to warrant so many extra services,good for Gowerton to get so many services,I just ponder the question, I have to use Gowerton,as its the only other single track over five miles long in Wales to be redoubled this year and paid for by WG.
I might add this is not knocking other areas of Wales.

The redoubling of the six miles of track between Cockett West Junction and Duffryn West Junction was planned before the proposed Wrexham redoubling and has removed a serious bottleneck west of Swansea. It is not as if only one service uses it. All destinations, west of Swansea, have to traverse this section of line and anyone who has used the line in recent years will have experienced many delays whilst waiting for the single line section to clear. In addition, the viaduct across the Llwchwr estuary was in a parlous state and needed to be replaced. The work, of course, meant that the disused platform at Gowerton needed to be reinstated. There has long been a need to increase the number of trains calling at Gowerton because, as has been pointed out elsewhere, it is not simply a ‘village station’ but serves as a railhead for a considerable catchment area. 95 extra trains a week might sound a lot but, when you break it down, it amounts to about six additional trains a day in each direction. These ‘additional’ services would have previously run through without stopping because of the constraints on timekeeping caused by the single line section.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I have just had a look at the passenger figures for Gowerton. These have risen from 13,768 in 2006/07 to 77,854 in 2011/12. The footfall will, almost certainly, continue to increase thanks to the improved service now on offer. This compares with the 33,104 using Wrexham Central. Not bad for a village station.

The usual caveats apply; not comparing like with like etc

 

[Gareth Marston]

The redoubling of the six miles of track between Cockett West Junction and Duffryn West Junction was planned before the proposed Wrexham redoubling and has removed a serious bottleneck west of Swansea. It is not as if only one service uses it. All destinations, west of Swansea, have to traverse this section of line and anyone who has used the line in recent years will have experienced many delays whilst waiting for the single line section to clear. In addition, the viaduct across the Llwchwr estuary was in a parlous state and needed to be replaced. The work, of course, meant that the disused platform at Gowerton needed to be reinstated. There has long been a need to increase the number of trains calling at Gowerton because, as has been pointed out elsewhere, it is not simply a ‘village station’ but serves as a railhead for a considerable catchment area. 95 extra trains a week might sound a lot but, when you break it down, it amounts to about six additional trains a day in each direction. These ‘additional’ services would have previously run through without stopping because of the constraints on timekeeping caused by the single line section.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I have just had a look at the passenger figures for Gowerton. These have risen from 13,768 in 2006/07 to 77,854 in 2011/12. The footfall will, almost certainly, continue to increase thanks to the improved service now on offer. This compares with the 33,104 using Wrexham Central. Not bad for a village station.

Real figure for central is much higher its well known that conductors on the Bidston line issue tickets to general even though folkf go down to central which is much better for town centre.