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Shouldn't they release the cheapest AP tickets first?

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trainophile

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That particular one is VWC and connections.

On the reverse SOP-HFD journey the TOCs used are Merseyrail, Virgin, Cross Country and London Midland. As I say, I've never seen on offer the HFD-SOP equivalent so can't say which TOCs are involved, or would be if such tickets actually exist.

I don't think Virgin are responsible for inputting all the £13.85 or £8.60 options though, as there are far more sensible (i.e. shorter and with less changes) routes that are based on ATW, and Hereford is an ATW station, whether that makes any difference.

Thinking about it, you're making the point that if ATW don't include that statement about early booking then they are not bound by any responsibility to offer the cheapest tickets first? I'll have to look into that tomorrow, got to log off now.

Thanks for the input, and sorry if I'm like a dog worrying a bone, it just bugs me.
 
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trainophile

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It's still a commonly held (mis)understanding though. Always used to be the case too, until recently. Still seems a bit disingenuous to have a system that leads people to believe that by buying as soon as possible they will get the cheapest options. Buyer beware!

Incidentally, same info appears under both the £13.85 and the £8.60 ATW ticket on brfares.com.

AVAILABILITY:
Tickets must be purchased in
advance of travel, subject to
availability, and are not
available on the day of travel
. Customers should book as far
in advance as possible to get
the cheapest fares.

I'd assumed this was an official site, John@home are you saying it isn't?
 

John @ home

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It seems to me that this is an opinion published on a private web site unconnected with the train companies.
I'd assumed this was an official site, John@home are you saying it isn't?
I don't know. The site states "Information copyright Rail Settlement Plan Ltd. Reproduced under fair use provisions of US copyright law". It contains no information about the provider. In my opinion, that makes it unlikely that the information is provided by a company registered in the EU.
 

benk1342

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AVAILABILITY:
Tickets must be purchased in
advance of travel, subject to
availability, and are not
available on the day of travel
. Customers should book as far
in advance as possible to get
the cheapest fares.

I'd assumed this was an official site, John@home are you saying it isn't?

brfares.com is a private website, but the data (including the AVAILABILITY field) comes from the National Fares Manual, which is an official publication.
 

Skymonster

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The rail industry seems to run a very unsophisticated model for revenue management of discounted fares and could, potentially, learn a lot from the airlines that have become masters of the process over many years.

Take for example a Ryanair or easyJet (or, to an extent, a British Airways too):

* For any given route, there will be a lowest fare the airline charges, and uses in publicity / advertising - these fares will be available on some date(s) on some flights on the route, but not necessarily on all flights on a route

* The publicised lowest ("from") fare may be available to buy when reservations for a specific flight start, but may not (i.e. there may be non of the very lowest fares available on some dates / flights when demand is forecast to be high or when the airline percieves the market will stand a higher starting price) - i.e. when demand is expected to be high (peak travel periods, dates when there may be strong last minute / business travel demands), the airline may start selling a specific flight at a higher fare than the minimum

* Beyond the lowest fare, there will be a series of increasing fare levels up to a maximum fare, which is the full unrestricted fare (usually fully changeable / refundable)

* Each level of fare will have a number of seats allocated to it - this number could be anything from zero to the total capacity of the aeroplane

* Typically when a very cheap fare sells out, the next fare up is sold, etc.

* But customers may chose to buy a higher fare that the lowest available, in order to obtain flexibility such as free changes or refunds. Customers buying higher fare tickets may affect (i.e. reduce) the availability of lower fare tickets

* The number of seats being sold at each level of fare may be changed by the airline at any time, and is not necessarily dependent on bookings of that fare

* The airline will never let it be known how many seats are available at each fare, nor how many have been sold at each fare

* If a flight sells more slowly than expected, extra lower fare tickets may be made available - lower sometimes than the fare being asked for before the fact that the flight was selling slowly was detected. So lower fares that had sold out might suddenly become available again, and a flight could be offered at a certain price one day, and at a lower price the next

* If a flight is selling more quickly than expected, especially if more expensive flexible tickets are selling faster than expected, availability of lower fares may be restricted or closed off completely, without passengers having booked all of the originally available lower fare tickets. A cheap fare may be available one day and not available the next, even if no tickets at that fare have been sold


So in the airline model, if you book as soon as ticket sales for a flight start then you might get the lowest advertised flight, but you might not. If you wait, a flight will probably cost you more that if you'd have booked earlier, but it might not if the flight is selling slowly. It suits airlines to offer low fares and have passengers booking as soon as possible so that they have some fare revenue locked in, but they to do it in such a way as to not restrict the availability of higher priced tickets that are typically bought at the last minute. Airlines are also very sensitive to empty seats and will almost always seek to as many seats as they can even if the fare paid only covers the incremental cost of moving each extra passenger. There is also an ancillary revenue model in airlines (selling food, drink, baggage, etc) that operates on the premise that even if a ticket is sold with no margin, a valuable contribution might well be obtained from the passenger from sale of other services. So to an outsider or casual traveller, trying to second-guess the airline model and get the very cheapest fare can occasionally be something of a lottery - but many experienced airline travelers accept the sitation and see getting the very best fare as a part of the process.

The Advance fare rail model on the other hand seems to operate on the basis of offering a predetermined number of tickets and price-A, a number at price-B, a number at price-C, etc. When price-A is sold out, price-B is sold, and when price-B is sold out, price-C is sold, etc. I accept that there may be some occasions when tickets at a certain price levels are cut off, but there doesn't seem to be the level of dynamic elasticity in the number of seats available based on ongoing / forecast demand that is practiced by airlines.

I accept that TOCs are less sensitive to trains running with empty seats than are the airlines and that they have little or no dependence on sale of add-on services, and that they have to cater to a walk up market that doesn't exist in airlines. However, it does surprise me that TOCs don't get a bit more creative in offering more cheaper tickets when demand is unexpectedly low, and cut off cheap tickets artificially when demand appears to be high.

Andy
 
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All,

Just wanted to let you know that I've received a refund from EC for the problems I had with EC booking website I mentioned in this thread. To recap, I was attempting to book two 1st websaver tickets - found I couldn't reallocate seats - closed browser to attempt to clear - and then got locked out of purchasing the same two tickets at that price.

I've uploaded a template of my letter of complaint if anyone has the same problem and wishes to use it.

Note that I cited your v. helpful responses from the forum... I guess that must have done the trick! So thanks for that.

Finally, to Indigo2 it did finally click as to what you were saying about the booking engine attempting to find two more tickets at the same price before reallocating seats (and hence the seat reallocation application crashing because it couldn't). Apologies for being dim about that.
 

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ainsworth74

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Brilliant letter and I'm glad it got you your money back (did they send anything extra?). Did their reply mention anything about correcting the faults in the booking engine?
 
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Brilliant letter and I'm glad it got you your money back (did they send anything extra?). Did their reply mention anything about correcting the faults in the booking engine?

Thanks. No, they didn't give me any extra for all my "testing" of the site :(

Nor did they mention anything about actually correcting the faults (which I'm more concerned about so it doesn't affect future customers!). But, perhaps we can leave it in their capable hands? ;)

I haven't got an email or letter with any explanation... they just rang and said they'd give a refund.
 

snail

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brfares.com is a private website, but the data (including the AVAILABILITY field) comes from the National Fares Manual, which is an official publication.
Looks like someone with access to NFM is feeding it through a US based server. Dodgy, but useful for us as it has all the info with none of the cost! How long before it disappears?

WHOIS Lookup said:
Registrant:
Domains By Proxy, LLC

DomainsByProxy.com
15111 N. Hayden Rd., Ste 160, PMB 353
Scottsdale, Arizona 85260
United States

Registered through: GoDaddy.com, LLC (http://www.godaddy.com)
Domain Name: BRFARES.COM
Created on: 11-Jan-12
Expires on: 11-Jan-13
Last Updated on: 11-Jan-12

Administrative Contact:
Private, Registration [email protected]

IP Address:199.195.140.24
ASN: AS54046
IP Location: - Arizona - Phoenix - Neodelphi Ltd Dba Quickweb Hosting Solutions
 
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