Sidcup to Greenwich via Dartford

[robbob700]

Hello all. On Saturday I need to travel from Sidcup to Dartford and then later on from Dartford to Greenwich. Can anyone confirm whether a Sidcup to Greenwich Anytime Single is valid via Dartford (breaking the journey at Dartford). Looking at map CT it appears to be valid, although the fare of £1.85 (with gold card) is less than a single to Dartford.

Thanks for your help

 

[clagmonster]

Sidcup is a related station to Dartford.
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/routeing_point_identifier.pdf page 56

Therefore, as Dartford is a routeing point, Sidcup and Dartford both share a common routeing point. Therefore, "the permitted route is direct via the shortest distance from the origin to the destination over which a regular scheduled passenger train service operates. No doubling back (passing through the same station twice on a single journey) is allowed which may require customers to change trains short of the routeing point, unless an easement allows a longer alternative route."
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/instructions.pdf

I can't see any relevent easements, so your down to the shortest route (and direct trains, but they're of no use to you as you wish to break your journey). I think that is almost certainly the direct route via Crayford.

 

[yorkie]

The shortest route includes routes up to 3 miles longer, and it is less than 3 additional miles between Crayford Spur, and Dartford station. Therefore if travel via Crayford is permitted then I believe travel via Dartford is permitted.

However I don't think a Sidcup to Greenwich ticket is actually valid via Crayford (except on direct trains, though obviously PAYG or a Travelcard with appropriate zones would be valid via Crayford regardless) as the shortest route is only around two-thirds of this mileage, via Lewisham/Charlton, although that does require two changes of train, and I believe it would be accepted via Crayford anyway on the basis that it is not unreasonable.

A return from Sidcup to Plumstead would, I believe, be valid (you would immediately start your return journey at Plumstead), on the basis that there are in fact several routes that all qualify within the 'shortest route' definition. Unfortunately a return is significantly more expensive than a single.

What I would do is buy the ticket from an online website (preferably SET's site) and specify via Dartford and purchase a ticket that way, obtaining an itinerary. Bring the itinerary with you to show to SET's RPIs/barrier staff (especially given the reputation of some of them). I wouldn't attempt to exit at Dartford without such an itinerary. I'd also book online if possible to generate a contract that should be considered binding. I checked Thetrainline and it will offer fares from Sidcup to Greenwich via Dartford, however don't use Thetrainline itself as it charges fees.

 

[clagmonster]

Sorry, I misread the situation. I was looking at Sidcup-Dartford rather than Sidcup-Greenwich.
In that case, Sidcup is related to Dartford, Hither Green and Slade Green.
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/routeing_point_identifier.pdf page 56

Greenwich is related to Charlton and the London Group.
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/routeing_point_identifier.pdf page 27

We now need to find out which routeing points are appropriate by comparing single fares.

Sidcup-Greenwich
SDS £2.80 (not London)
SDS £4.80 (London not Underground)

Dartford-Greenwich
SDS £4.90 > £4.80 hence Dartford is not an appropriate routeing point.

Hither Green-Greenwich
SDS £1.80 (not London)
SDS £3.40 (London not Underground)
Both less than the Sidcup fares, so Hither Green is an appropriate routeing point.

Slade Green-Greenwich
SDS £3.30 (not London)
Greater than the equivalent Sidcup fare, so Slade Green is not an appropriate routeing point.

Therefore, the only appropriate routeing point for Sidcup is Hither Green.

Sidcup-Charlton
SDS £2.80, equal to the Greenwich fare so Charlton is an appropriate routeing point.

Sidcup-London
SDS £4.80, equal to the appropriate Greenwich fare so London is an appropriate routeing point.



Hither Green-Charlton allows map NK, giving us:
Sidcup-Hither Green-Lewisham-Charlton-Greenwich
Sidcup-Hither Green-New Cross-Lewisham-Charlton-Greenwich
Sidcup-Hither Green-Lewisham-Dartford-Charlton-Greenwich
Sidcup-Hither Green-New Cross-Lewisham-Dartford-Charlton-Greenwich
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/maps.pdf page 79

Hither Green-London allows map SV, giving us:
Sidcup-Hither Green-New Cross-London-Greenwich
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/maps.pdf page 100

So, I believe that you can use a Sidcup-Greenwich ticket to travel via Dartford, so long as you purhcase the route 'not London' ticket and make the Sidcup-Dartford leg via Hither Green and Lewisham.

 

[MikeWh]

So, I believe that you can use a Sidcup-Greenwich ticket to travel via Dartford, so long as you purhcase the route 'not London' ticket and make the Sidcup-Dartford leg via Hither Green and Lewisham.

So you would have to go Sidcup - Lewisham - Bexleyheath - Dartford - Greenwich as that is the only route which wouldn't double back. Also, are you allowed to pass through Dartford given that it is a routeing point that has been rejected on the fares check rule? Whatever, it won't help the OP as they want to use the direct route from Sidcup to Dartford.

 

[robbob700]

Thanks very much for all your help.

I think I'll just get 2 singles - Sidcup-Dartford and Dartford to Greenwich. That way there is no doubt about validity!

 

[island]

That would be £3.40 + £4.90. Slightly cheaper is single Sidcup to Greenwich route NOT LONDON £2.80 plus off-peak day return Crayford to Dartford £2.80; it is strictly only valid if you are on a circle train from Sidcup to Greenwich, but I doubt it'll be challenged.

 

[clagmonster]

So you would have to go Sidcup - Lewisham - Bexleyheath - Dartford - Greenwich as that is the only route which wouldn't double back.

Agreed

are you allowed to pass through Dartford given that it is a routeing point that has been rejected on the fares check rule?

The fare comparison test is used to determine the appropriate start and end routeing points in step 4. Steps 6 and 7, which deal with the route between said appropriate routeing points, do not bar, or even mention, passing through the innaproprate routeing points at the start and end of the journey (if that makes sense). So as far as I can see, there is nothing to prevent the passenger passing through Dartford, so long as they don't use it as the routeing point related to Sidcup for obtaining routeing permissions.

 

[John @ home]

The fare comparison test is used to determine the appropriate start and end routeing points in step 4. Steps 6 and 7, which deal with the route between said appropriate routeing points, do not bar, or even mention, passing through the innaproprate routeing points at the start and end of the journey.

Agreed.

So as far as I can see, there is nothing to prevent the passenger passing through Dartford, so long as they don't use it as the routeing point related to Sidcup for obtaining routeing permissions.

But there is a worked example of a Lydney to Church Stretton journey on pages F5 and F6 of The National Routeing Guide in Detail. On page F5 it is determined that for this journey:

Shrewsbury is not an appropriate routeing point.

Then, during the tracing of routes on the map on page F6, there is the sentence:

When tracing these routes on the maps you must avoid Shrewsbury because it is not an appropriate routeing point for this journey.

It is not clear whether or not this is a general rule, or if so where that rule is stated, but the use of must rather than should has made me hesitate before recommending a route via a station which is (or is part of) an associated routeing point but not an approriate routeing point for a journey.