Signal Passed at Danger

Discussion in 'Railtours & Preservation' started by Chris999999, 28 Aug 2019.

  1. Chris999999

    Chris999999 Member

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    I visited the North Norfolk Line last Sunday, but some services were cancelled because apparently a driver had failed to stop at a signal, and was not allowed to drive any more.

    Are these issues handled by the North Norfolk Line or does some external agency become involved?
     
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  3. paul1609

    paul1609 Established Member

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    Depends on the circumstances if its a reportable incident the Heritage Line will report it to the ORR.
    In most cases the line will carry out their own investigation, write a report detailing their actions to prevent a re-occurence and submit it to the ORR for comment.
     
  4. Edders23

    Edders23 Member

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    Bearing in mind the slow speeds involved and the low numbers of active trains could there be a "serious" spad on a heritage line ?
     
  5. headshot119

    headshot119 Established Member

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  6. Bertie the bus

    Bertie the bus Established Member

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    Considering the Cannon St accident involved a train running at 10 mph and 2 people died I would say the answer is yes.
     
  7. Cowley

    Cowley Established Member

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    And also considering that a lot of preserved mk1s are probably not as structurally sound as they perhaps should be...
     
  8. leezer3

    leezer3 Member

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    IMHO the Quorn video above isn't quite the same at all.

    It shows the safety system (catch point) working exactly as designed and mitigating the consequences of the SPAD by keeping the train off the main line.
    Sure, the loco got a little bent, but it prevented the much larger potential issue.

    In Canon Street & Paddington, the objects hit were unintentional, and I don't think can be compared directly :)
     
  9. Bertie the bus

    Bertie the bus Established Member

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    So we're all safe as long as the train intentionally hits things then. That's what tends to happen with SPADs; they intentionally hit things.
     
  10. robert7111a

    robert7111a Established Member

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    Forgive my stupidity, but if a signal is passed at danger, why is it not a SPAD? The video at Quorn clearly shows the engine passing a signal at danger
     
  11. edwin_m

    edwin_m Veteran Member

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    IIRC the signaller failed to reverse the trap points (they're not catch points incidentally) so couldn't clear the signal. Thinking there was some failure in the equipment they authorised the driver to pass it at danger. I don't think that counts as a SPAD. Perhaps with the better view from the cab of a diesel or electric the driver would have seen the points set wrongly before moving towards them.
     
  12. pdeaves

    pdeaves Established Member

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    edwin_m is right. If you are authorised to pass a signal at danger, you do not pass a signal at danger! The difference is whether someone in authority (the signaller) tells you to or not.
     
  13. robert7111a

    robert7111a Established Member

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    Aha that makes sense then - thanks for explaining.
     
  14. Shenandoah

    Shenandoah Member

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    The initial post says this occurred on the North Norfolk line. Subsequent posts have mentioned other places.
    What is not reported here is were any passengers at risk, or hurt? What, if any, subsequent actions have been taken?
     
  15. bluegoblin7

    bluegoblin7 Member

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    Different railways classify things like this differently, but it would generally be considered as a SPAR - Signal Passed at Red. On my railway a driver would be expected to proceed at caution and stop short of any points set incorrectly. There were formerly different categories of SPAD depending on what the cause was; this one would, at face value, go down as signaller error.

    And just for clarification (as both terms have been used and are often confused, and no explanations have been given) - catch points are (generally) used to protect sections against runaway vehicles ('catching' them) whilst trap points are (again generally, as always there are exceptions) used to protect through lines by diverting trains away until a route is set ('trapping' them in a loop or siding, for instance).
     
  16. paul1609

    paul1609 Established Member

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    I think the use of the "a lot" is perhaps a little ott clearly in your neck of the woods there has been an incident recently where that is so but on the railway I work on and I would suggest a lot of the others the coaches have structural work done on them that is basically the same as they would have done on BR and many of the overhauls have been pretty substantial given the age now of the MK1s.
     
  17. The BIgman1234

    The BIgman1234 Member

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    I always tell the driver to stop short of the points and tell him to check they are in the correct position for the move . Even if the route has been check a dozen times .
     
  18. edwin_m

    edwin_m Veteran Member

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    However even an as-new Mk1 is less crashworthy than anything in day-to-day service on the main line.
     
  19. CockneySparrow

    CockneySparrow Established Member

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    Yes quite easily, its single line for starters, what if theres another train coming in opposite direction

    Or if the points aint set, could be a derailment
     
  20. Edders23

    Edders23 Member

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    I think that could be said of many heritage railways maintenance is done to a high standard on most lines
     
  21. Paul Hitchcock

    Paul Hitchcock Member

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    That would explain a lot about the sequence of events as shown on the video but what puzzled me at the time and still does, was why there appeared to be a slow reaction from the footplate after the first tender wheel left the rails.
     
  22. leezer3

    leezer3 Member

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    IIRC they overshot the stop board protecting the foot crossing at Sheringham.
    The crossing gates are always closed when a train is approaching (to protect against this scenario), so as far as I know minimal to no risk.

    Can't comment on actions etc.
     
  23. robert7111a

    robert7111a Established Member

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    Perhaps we should wait until a) the MNR has carried out its own investigation and b) wait for the report if it is deemed appropriate to appear in the public domain
     
  24. 2HAP

    2HAP Member

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  25. Belperpete

    Belperpete Member

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    That is not my understanding of what happened. I recall that there was a misunderstanding between the signalman and the loco crew, with the driver believing he had been authorised to pass the signal due to the fireman incorrectly relaying the message from the signaller. Which would make it a SPAD.

    However, a SPAD is a SPAD, whether it has been authorised by the signaller or not.
     
  26. ComUtoR

    ComUtoR Established Member

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    Can you explain this further please. I really don't understand your comment and neither do I believe its accurate.
     
  27. pdeaves

    pdeaves Established Member

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    There is a difference between a SPAD and a SPAR (signal passed at red). It's down to authorisation.
     
  28. BRblue

    BRblue Member

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    I think you'll find it's not... a SPAR is when a train has passed a signal at red due to a reason apart from driver error.
    A signaller putting a signal back in front of a train or a change of aspect (green to red) and the train is to close to stop... if it then passes said said signal at red it is a SPAR.
    Nothing to do with authorisation.
     
  29. Bovverboy

    Bovverboy Established Member

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    Perhaps the crew fell over?
     
  30. Flying Phil

    Flying Phil Established Member

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    Not an expert at all, but the controls on a steam locomotive are very crude devices mechanically and it is the skill of the drivers to get a smooth operation. To get the steam brake or vacuum brake to have an effect is a matter of several seconds, unless they are already being gently applied.
     
  31. Paul Hitchcock

    Paul Hitchcock Member

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    It was going very slowly. Have another look at the video.Signal was right by the box but there was no evident flagman. As I said before, all very mystifying.
     

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