"Signalling Problems" and cable thefts, time for a new approach?

[j0hn0]

Everyone knows the issues with Thameslink, and last night, Waterloo suffered similar problems. Almost every day we hear of trains delayed by "signalling Problems" and/or cable thefts, so isn't it time to stop laying huge lines of cables and start installing remote systems instead?

Does in-cab signalling still require miles of copper wire along the tracks? Is ETCS meant to go some way to eradicate this?

I am just curious because the amount of signalling related delays on the network is frankly appalling. Something which is not seen on HS1 (in cab signalling)

cheers
D

 

[umontu]

Everyone knows the issues with Thameslink, and last night, Waterloo suffered similar problems. Almost every day we hear of trains delayed by "signalling Problems" and/or cable thefts, so isn't it time to stop laying huge lines of cables and start installing remote systems instead?

Does in-cab signalling still require miles of copper wire along the tracks? Is ETCS meant to go some way to eradicate this?

I am just curious because the amount of signalling related delays on the network is frankly appalling. Something which is not seen on HS1 (in cab signalling)

cheers
D

You'll still have antena's that'll need cables. And they'll still be needed to create track circuits.

 

[j0hn0]

You'll still have antena's that'll need cables. And they'll still be needed to create track circuits.

sure, but they won't be lined along the whole of the track, only within their own circuit?

 

[HugePilchard]

The track circuit still needs to get back to somewhere! There's no use having a track circuit if it can't tell someone or something that it's occupied.

When ETCS is rolled out, it's going to rely on balises (is that the correct plural?) and/or GSM-R. And if there's anything that I've learned from my time in the telecoms industry, it's that phone masts are all-too-common targets for cable theft.

 

[ChrisCooper]

It depends on the system. TVM430 on HS1, as with most cab signalling systems, will still have lots of cables, as it uses track circuits, and communication to the trains via the track. ETCS level 1 is the same (although retains the signals). ETCS level 2 or 3 uses radio, a very new concept (as opposed to cab signalling which has been around for ages) so doesn't require much lineside infrastructure and wiring. The only established radio based signalling system is RETB.

Most likely the reason these delays are not seen on HS1 is because security is better, afterall a new high speed line will have much better fencing than the old network which is largely open (even though it's mostly fenced there are still plenty of open access points such as crossings). Also perhaps the wires are better protected than just being in concrete troughs that are often left uncovered or damaged.

 

[tbtc]

A daily occurance round Yorkshire, or so it seems, and nothing seems to stop it. I'm not sure of the logistics of what you suggest, but the delays are getting daft.

 

[LexyBoy]

How obvious is the copper when it's on the black or grey market? Is the type of wiring specific to the railways or is it a generic type?

Could it be possible to mark it somehow by adding a specific 'fingerprint' of rare elements to the metal - I believe that this happens with bullets (maybe not deliberately, but it's possible to match a bullet from a crimescene with a particular manufacturer's batch by elemental analysis). If this could be done then stolen metal could be identified even if melted down.

Anyway - just an idea, I have no knowledge of where the wiring etc goes once it's nicked and whether it would be feasible to do this. However, it must be remembered that it's not just the cost of the wiring, but also the network downtime, replacement cost etc.

 

[HugePilchard]

I believe technologies like Smartwater are getting more and more common these days. So, whilst one bit of black sheathed cable might look like any other, if the police decide to pop round to see what the local scrap merchant has been buying, they're more likely to be able to tell that a bit of cable has come from the railways.

Consequently, some scrap merchants are now getting wise to the possibility of getting their collar felt, and will ask questions before they buy a load of cable from some guy in a rusty old transit.

 

[DarloRich]

but the scrappies know they are buying dodgy cable, dont ask any questions, pay less than market value and get it melted down ASAP. Only some sort of idiot would leave it lying around for thwe old bill to find!

You have to catch the crooks red handed AND then hope the judge sends them down for quite a while, which doesnt happen very often!

 

[HugePilchard]

It's quite incredible the risks some of them will go to. Just spotted this on the BBC website:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-13678266

OK, so the chap wasn't on the railways, but still... 21kV cable, and we've already established that OHLE isn't immune from being nicked.

 

[j0hn0]

It's quite incredible the risks some of them will go to. Just spotted this on the BBC website:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-13678266

OK, so the chap wasn't on the railways, but still... 21kV cable, and we've already established that OHLE isn't immune from being nicked.

holy cow, shows the brain power of these morons. And he only got 12 month community service!! unbelievable

Also my friend works for a scrap merchant and he showed me his machine for breaking it down, quite clever really.

Honestly, if the scrapyards are paying for it, people will continue to nick it. Why are the police not coming down hard on the scrap yards for handling stolen goods?

 

[mallard]

I believe that this happens with bullets (maybe not deliberately, but it's possible to match a bullet from a crimescene with a particular manufacturer's batch by elemental analysis).

Actually, "Comparative Bullet-Lead Analysis" as it is called is nowadays considered unreliable and no longer used.

 

[ainsworth74]

holy cow, shows the brain power of these morons. And he only got 12 month community service!! unbelievable

I think having his skull blown open was probably punishment enough in his case.

Now other cases where such thieves have been caught without being harmed by their stupidity, there I would like to see several rather large books thrown at them equaling a lengthy prison sentence.

 

[j0hn0]

I think having his skull blown open was probably punishment enough in his case.

Now other cases where such thieves have been caught without being harmed by their stupidity, there I would like to see several rather large books thrown at them equaling a lengthy prison sentence.

I actually don't think that having his skull blown off is punishment enough, but then, I am harsh when it comes to this subject. I think they should all be shot anyway.

 

[142094]

Probably the easiest way of limiting cable theft is to ensure there isn't a market for the stolen cables in the first place, by working with scrap metal dealers and prosecuting those individuals who buy the cables from the thieves. There is no other realistic way of protecting thousands of miles of cables or stopping everyone in a Transit van who the police suspect of carrying scrap metal.

Replacing the copper wires with something else doesn't have a great effect - people will still rip it up expecting to find copper and the damage is done again.

 

[b0b]

If you want to see the lengths they'll go to, take a look at this story from the US

http://www.tauntongazette.com/news/...ilroad-tracks-in-Taunton-today-train-derailed

 

[mallard]

Considering that recent statements from the BTP state that cable theft is "second only to terrorism", that would make it the number one real threat to the railways (since terrorism is in reality a very low risk factor, overblown for political reasons), I think that justifies major action and personally, going after the scrap dealers is a good idea.

Making railway cabling easily identifiable, publicising the identification method to scrap dealers and then taking action against those found to be in possession of stolen cabling should work. Random inspections of scrap yards in relevant areas should discourage dealers from buying the stuff. If they won't buy it, thieves won't steal it.

 

[142094]

If you want to see the lengths they'll go to, take a look at this story from the US

http://www.tauntongazette.com/news/...ilroad-tracks-in-Taunton-today-train-derailed

There have been numerous stories about track theft over here (Leamside line being a prime example), but I've never heard of anyone stealing track from a line still in use!

 

[Teaboy1]

"The impact blew part of his skull off, leaving his brain exposed."

.........what brain exposed ? ........what fragment of brain are we talking about ? ..........

..........sorry to be so belligerent, but not only have we (taxpayer or utility customer) to pay to repair his handy work but we have to pay for his hospital treatment and future physio plus we have to pay for his court case as well to be given a community service order for burglary....... so what will that involve ? .......... more money spent to supervise him when he's out !! Soft option !!

Sorry but we are fools to ourselves by allowing this balderdash ( expletive substitute here ) to continue..........would have been better and more viable to have blown his manhood off...........stopped him breeding at least and ended his contribution to the gene pool of muppetry.

End of rant !!

 

[Holly]

It could be fixed.
Make a law that no scrap can be melted down within 24hrs of acceptance.
Have the BTP do daily inspections on the books and the physical material at a fixed time each day (different for each dealer).
Require that the dealer takes and keeps a photograph of every seller.

A pain in the neck?
Yes, but not nearly as much as theft of signal cable.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

It could be fixed.
Make a law that no scrap can be melted down within 24hrs of acceptance.
Have the BTP do daily inspections on the books and the physical material at a fixed time each day (different for each dealer).
Require that the dealer takes and keeps a photograph of every seller.

A pain in the neck?
Yes, but not nearly as much as theft of signal cable.

That would probably cost more in the long run than the replacement cable and delays, and will not solve the problem as the disreputable dealers would just not put the cable in their books, and get rid of it before the BTP come, and not take the photograph of those who are involved in the cable dealing.

 

[Holly]

That would probably cost more in the long run than the replacement cable and delays, and will not solve the problem as the disreputable dealers would just not put the cable in their books, and get rid of it before the BTP come, and not take the photograph of those who are involved in the cable dealing.

The BTP are more capable than any other police force at spotting railway cable.
And they will smell who the bad guys are and a random audit will catch them. Having unexplained refined cooper at a random audit is prima facie evidence of breaking the rules.

The cost of not fixing it may be huge.
The cost of not fixing it is huger.

 

[Daz28]

Perhaps the railway could make more use of fibre-optics instead of copper?

 

[HugePilchard]

Fibre still gets nicked. It looks the same as any other cable in the dark when you're hastily pulling it out of the ground.

Besides, fibre doesn't do power. You're still going to need metallic cables for that.

 

[IanXC]

I saw a TV programme recently which followed the BTP investigating stolen cable. Can't really think what it was called or what channel it was on, will post back if I remember!

There seemed to be a fairly large scale intelligence lead operation going on, and multidisciplinary teams were going out and doing random and intelligence lead searches of scrap yards. They had BTP officers, Network Rail staff, National Grid staff and BT staff who were all on the look out for stolen cables. Did seem to be surprisingly easy to find cable in the yards - as clear as having "Network Rail" printed on the outside of the plastic coating.

Scrap dealers are required to keep a log of all the metal they've purchased, including when and from who. BTP did make use of CCTV at one dealer's premises but Im not sure if they're required to have that.

Other than cable there was one case where someone had stolen 2 truckloads of brand new track, theyd been let into Carlisle yard by an NR staff member who admitted to being involved, although they "assisted" the investigation and didnt get a legal punishment at least, and remain in their job... The dealer who'd stolen the track was found to be in possession of an invoice for its transport from the yard to the scrap dealer.. maybe theres a common theme here...

 

[ralphchadkirk]

The BTP are more capable than any other police force at spotting railway cable.
And they will smell who the bad guys are and a random audit will catch them. Having unexplained refined cooper at a random audit is prima facie evidence of breaking the rules.

The cost of not fixing it may be huge.
The cost of not fixing it is huger.

That's exactly what the BTP are doing - but having unexplained refined copper is not an indication of theft from the railways.

 

[Get-Pulled-Off]

The cost of not fixing it may be huge.
The cost of not fixing it is huger.

Indeed, and whilst most people will factor in the cost of delayed trains to the industy, what is never included is the cost to UK plc in the lost man-hours of thousands of people turning up late for work, or not at all. Because these costs are absorbed into general business expenditure it won't appear in any figures. But a cable theft on a busy main line would be broadly similar to shutting a motorway.

I'm not sure there is an easy solution, the liberal nature of our justice system means their is little effective deterrant. A short prison sentance is seen as a hazard of the job for those that refuse to play by the rules, and given the chances of being caught is so low, they are prepared to accept the risks.

 

[IanXC]

I saw a TV programme recently which followed the BTP investigating stolen cable. Can't really think what it was called or what channel it was on, will post back if I remember!

Here it is! It was a piece on Crimewatch on the BTP's Metal Theft Unit. Its still on iPlayer, at 37.32 minutes in http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b011tz0y/Crimewatch_on_the_Streets_2009_Episode_3/

 

[HugePilchard]

The problem with regular checks (I think someone earlier in the thread mentioned 'daily') is twofold.

Firstly, scrapyards can be quite large places, and if a scrappy really wanted to hide something, it would take a fair bit of searching to do it.

Secondly, having the police crawling all over your business is going to be rather disruptive. Any goodwill that the BTP may have had towards them from the scrapyards is going to evaporate, and the legitimate ones will no doubt turn away vanloads of dubious cable because they don't want their collars felt, but I very much doubt they'll bother picking up the phone and telling anyone what's just happened.

Whilst I wouldn't disagree that scrapyards caught with stolen cable should have the full weight of the law thrown at them, the only way that this sort of thing is going to die out is with the support of the scrapyards. BTP can no more watch every single scrapyard than they can watch every single yard of railway line; the chances of getting people caught without having the end buyers (i.e. the scrapyards) on side is slim.

 

[142094]

Even if BTP had the manpower to do random checks, there would still be a way around it. I very much doubt that scrap yard owners who do take in copper from suspicious sources leave it lying in plain sight or keep in on their land for a few days. Most of it will be sorted very quickly and moved on.

I'd expect that local councils have a list of furnaces/smelters in their area - probably would be better to monitor those.