Single Justice Procedure Notice from Govia Thameslink

[ewdog]

Good afternoon,

I hope everyone is well.

Yesterday, I received a Single Justice Procedure Notice from Govia Thameslink.

The notice is regarding a journey made between London Bridge and Brighton 3 months ago on 23/2/24.

Tens of Revenue Protection officers boarded the train I was on at Preston Park. I produced my ticket upon inspection, which had a railcard discount on it. I was asked to provide my railcard, however due to poor signalling in the area (Sussex) and the fact I had a new phone which I had not downloaded my Railcard onto yet, there was a delay in producing it. I explained this to the officer and his response was to call others to crowd around the booth I was sat in, whilst informing me he would be turning on his body cam.

After a short time, the railcard was renewed, downloaded and produced, stating its validity from the day of travel (23rd February 2024), until 22nd February 2025. I was informed that this was not sufficient and I was in breach of the law. Consequently, I was ordered to pay a fine of the full amount of an anytime journey, which almost double the amount I had paid previously.

The multiple Revenue Officers surrounding the booth applied pressure on me to pay the fine, insisting it was the right course of action and it would only get worse if I did not do so. I obviously felt intimidated and anxious.

After a short while I asked the first revenue officer exactly how much the fine was. Before he could reply, a different type of officer (I am unsure of who exactly he worked for, but it was not a revenue protection officer), shouted that I would no longer be able to pay the fine anyway, because this was being escalated.

I answered the following questions, which you can view in the attached transcript, then departed at Brighton.

The intimidation tactics left me pretty shaken up. However, my anxiety is now through the roof after receiving this formal notice and decision to either plead guilty or not, with a potential court date.

I have been a railcard holder consistently over the last 9 years since turning 16. This has never been an issue before. I showed the officers my railcard purchase history, they were disinterested. I answered their relevant questions, and politely refused to pay a fine for a valid ticket.

After doing personal research after receiving this notice, which I need to respond to within 20 days, the National Rail Conditions of Travel states, “the railcard must be within its period of validity when you travel” (section 8.1).

The railcard was valid on the date of travel.

Similarly, Section 8.5 states, “

If you are travelling with a Railcard discounted Ticket and are unable to present the Railcard when asked by the staff or authorised agents of a Train Company, you will be treated as having joined a train without a valid Ticket”.”

The ticket was produced, followed by a valid railcard, admittedly with a previously explained delay.

I am seeking any advice with regards to resolution. I cannot afford a criminal conviction as a result of something so ridiculous, I am in the teaching profession. I also cannot believe common sense did not prevail. I believe, due to the massive amount of officers (minimum 20), on that train, there was a quota to fill and I was picked out. Any support would be welcome. Thank you.

(The photo at the top of the transcript is of my railcard, with a time stamp).

 

[methecooldude]

Please re-upload your first image, redacting your name for privacy

There is a conflict here between:

I was asked to provide my railcard, however due to poor signalling in the area (Sussex) and the fact I had a new phone which I had not downloaded my Railcard onto yet, there was a delay in producing it.

and

After a short time, the railcard was renewed, downloaded and produced, stating its validity from the day of travel (23rd February 2024), until 22nd February 2025.

(my bold added)

So, at the point you boarded the train, you did or did not have a valid railcard? Then when challenged you did or did not renew the expired railcard there and then?

You say:

The railcard was valid on the date of travel.

BUT was it valid when you entered the train and started your journey

 

[WesternLancer]

Good afternoon,

I hope everyone is well.

Yesterday, I received a Single Justice Procedure Notice from Govia Thameslink.

The notice is regarding a journey made between London Bridge and Brighton 3 months ago on 23/2/24.

Tens of Revenue Protection officers boarded the train I was on at Preston Park. I produced my ticket upon inspection, which had a railcard discount on it. I was asked to provide my railcard, however due to poor signalling in the area (Sussex) and the fact I had a new phone which I had not downloaded my Railcard onto yet, there was a delay in producing it. I explained this to the officer and his response was to call others to crowd around the booth I was sat in, whilst informing me he would be turning on his body cam.

After a short time, the railcard was renewed, downloaded and produced, stating its validity from the day of travel (23rd February 2024), until 22nd February 2025. I was informed that this was not sufficient and I was in breach of the law. Consequently, I was ordered to pay a fine of the full amount of an anytime journey, which almost double the amount I had paid previously.

The multiple Revenue Officers surrounding the booth applied pressure on me to pay the fine, insisting it was the right course of action and it would only get worse if I did not do so. I obviously felt intimidated and anxious.

After a short while I asked the first revenue officer exactly how much the fine was. Before he could reply, a different type of officer (I am unsure of who exactly he worked for, but it was not a revenue protection officer), shouted that I would no longer be able to pay the fine anyway, because this was being escalated.

I answered the following questions, which you can view in the attached transcript, then departed at Brighton.

The intimidation tactics left me pretty shaken up. However, my anxiety is now through the roof after receiving this formal notice and decision to either plead guilty or not, with a potential court date.

I have been a railcard holder consistently over the last 9 years since turning 16. This has never been an issue before. I showed the officers my railcard purchase history, they were disinterested. I answered their relevant questions, and politely refused to pay a fine for a valid ticket.

After doing personal research after receiving this notice, which I need to respond to within 20 days, the National Rail Conditions of Travel states, “the railcard must be within its period of validity when you travel” (section 8.1).

The railcard was valid on the date of travel.

Similarly, Section 8.5 states, “

If you are travelling with a Railcard discounted Ticket and are unable to present the Railcard when asked by the staff or authorised agents of a Train Company, you will be treated as having joined a train without a valid Ticket”.”

The ticket was produced, followed by a valid railcard, admittedly with a previously explained delay.

I am seeking any advice with regards to resolution. I cannot afford a criminal conviction as a result of something so ridiculous, I am in the teaching profession. I also cannot believe common sense did not prevail. I believe, due to the massive amount of officers (minimum 20), on that train, there was a quota to fill and I was picked out. Any support would be welcome. Thank you.

(The photo at the top of the transcript is of my railcard, with a time stamp).

Welcome - The pertinent part of your post I think is this:

I was asked to provide my railcard, however due to poor signalling in the area (Sussex) and the fact I had a new phone which I had not downloaded my Railcard onto yet, there was a delay in producing it. I explained this to the officer and his response was to call others to crowd around the booth I was sat in, whilst informing me he would be turning on his body cam.

This reads as if you had a Railcard that you had bought but could not show it on your phone when asked, but then you say this:

After a short time, the railcard was renewed, downloaded and produced, stating its validity from the day of travel (23rd February 2024), until 22nd February 2025.

Which reads as if you only renewed the Railcard at that point - ie after you boarded the train and perhaps realised your railcard had expired and you needed a new one, or were being asked to show one.

Can you clarify which is the case?

If you did not have the Railcard purchased before you boarded the train and commenced the journey with that ticket then you have committed a ticketing offence I'm afraid

but if you bought it before boarding the train (and can prove that with a time and date stamp on the purchase) then I do not think you have committed an offence because you would usually be dealt with under what's called the 'forgotten Railcard policy' I think (see the FAQs on the railcard website which is what you reference) and simple need to prove you owned a valid Railcard before commencing your journey. In that case I think you would plead not guilty (but wait for experts to comment on your post too of course before you complete the paperwork)

EDIT - I see @methecooldude has picked up on the same point.

 

[ewdog]

If my railcard wasn’t renewed before entering the train then I will be found guilty effectively?

 

[AlterEgo]

If my railcard wasn’t renewed before entering the train then I will be found guilty effectively?

Yes. Is that the case?

To be absolutely sure, is this:

due to poor signalling in the area (Sussex) and the fact I had a new phone which I had not downloaded my Railcard onto yet, there was a delay in producing it

a lie? Did you tell this to the inspector?

 

[ewdog]

What I said above is absolutely true. I’m confused because back in 2023, I noticed my railcard was expired whilst showing an inspector. I said I’d renew it now, and he said no problem, I’ll come back and scan it when you’re done.

 

[pedr]

Did you say to the inspector something like "I have a railcard but I can't get it to download at the moment"? It sounds as if that was untrue, if that's what you said.

 

[Darandio]

You talk of them having quotas to fill and being picked on but it seems as well as not having a valid railcard or ticket you also refused to give details when asked. It's not really a surprise they want to proceed in this manner.

 

[AlterEgo]

What I said above is absolutely true. I’m confused because back in 2023, I noticed my railcard was expired whilst showing an inspector. I said I’d renew it now, and he said no problem, I’ll come back and scan it when you’re done.

So, did you or did you not have a valid railcard when you entered the train on 23 Feb 2024? The train company will know the time when it was purchased.

 

[ewdog]

He asked to see my railcard after I showed him the ticket, I was already on my way to opening the app as soon as I had showed him the ticket.

When I opened it up, I saw I was signed out (new phone), so went through all the rigmarole of signing in. I said (forgive me, it was a while ago and a lot has happened since), “sorry it’s a new phone so I’ve got to sign in again”.

 

[Watershed]

What I said above is absolutely true. I’m confused because back in 2023, I noticed my railcard was expired whilst showing an inspector. I said I’d renew it now, and he said no problem, I’ll come back and scan it when you’re done.

How can it be true if your Railcard had expired, though? It sounds like you didn't have a valid Railcard at all - i.e. yours had expired - at the point you boarded the train. If so, you did indeed commit a criminal offence under the Railway Byelaws.

The fact that an inspector may have let you off in the past for renewing your Railcard onboard the train is, unfortunately, not a defence to doing the same thing again.

 

[ewdog]

You talk of them having quotas to fill and being picked on but it seems as well as not having a valid railcard or ticket you also refused to give details when asked. It's not really a surprise they want to proceed in this manner.

You can see I gave them the details?

 

[skyhigh]

He asked to see my railcard after I showed him the ticket, I was already on my way to opening the app as soon as I had showed him the ticket.

When I opened it up, I saw I was signed out (new phone), so went through all the rigmarole of signing in. I said (forgive me, it was a while ago and a lot has happened since), “sorry it’s a new phone so I’ve got to sign in again”.

Did you have a valid Railcard when you boarded the train (but were unable to show it immediately), or did you buy it when the inspector asked to see your ticket? Simple question, but you don't seem to be giving a clear answer.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@ewdog. What's the expiry date on your railcard?

 

[WesternLancer]

He asked to see my railcard after I showed him the ticket, I was already on my way to opening the app as soon as I had showed him the ticket.

When I opened it up, I saw I was signed out (new phone), so went through all the rigmarole of signing in. I said (forgive me, it was a while ago and a lot has happened since), “sorry it’s a new phone so I’ve got to sign in again”.

Surely you must know if you bought the railcard and paid for it before or after you got on the train? - this is the key question you need to answer in order to help you get the advice you need on what to do next.

If you don't know can you see from a bank statement etc the time of purchase. You have indicated you bought it that day (which is fine - I often buy my railcard on the day of travel even if I have bought the ticket before so that I get the maximum use period on the railcard), but you need to have a valid Railcard when you travel - and that means when you commence travelling, if the ticket is discounted with a Railcard reduction.

@ewdog. What's the expiry date on your railcard?

that date is listed in their posts above

well it was before the OP deleted their original post with details of the incident in it - but can be read in post 3 where it said:

After a short time, the railcard was renewed, downloaded and produced, stating its validity from the day of travel (23rd February 2024), until 22nd February 2025.

 

[AlterEgo]

You can see I gave them the details?

The witness statement - which you have just deleted - says you refused to give your details and were going to be met by the police.

This isn't a ringing endorsement of the teaching profession to be honest.

There is probably a way out of this for you but you need to be honest and give people here the correct situation so it may be addressed properly. Don't waste our time by being vague or evasive. I'm not surprised they have charged you, but there is still likely a way to settle the matter without being prosecuted. It's up to you.

He asked to see my railcard after I showed him the ticket, I was already on my way to opening the app as soon as I had showed him the ticket.

When I opened it up, I saw I was signed out (new phone), so went through all the rigmarole of signing in. I said (forgive me, it was a while ago and a lot has happened since), “sorry it’s a new phone so I’ve got to sign in again”.

Did you or did you not buy the Railcard while on the train? Yes or no.

 

[WesternLancer]

The witness statement - which you have just deleted - says you refused to give your details and were going to be met by the police.

This isn't a ringing endorsement of the teaching profession to be honest.

There is probably a way out of this for you but you need to be honest and give people here the correct situation so it may be addressed properly. Don't waste our time by being vague or evasive. I'm not surprised they have charged you, but there is still likely a way to settle the matter without being prosecuted. It's up to you.

Yes, without the OP giving more details one is left to conclude that matters perhaps escalated on board the train due to what is often called here 'failing the attitude test'

 

[ewdog]

Yes, without the OP giving more details one is left to conclude that matters perhaps escalated on board the train due to what is often called here 'failing the attitude test'

I showed him what he wanted straight up. The railcard I clocked wasn’t loaded and I renewed it and downloaded it there and then.

Going forward with this particular matter I’m not sure what the best course of action is.

Not sure “the attitude test” comes into this. I was straight forward. Have had 9 railcards in 9 years since turning 16. Didn’t understand the escalation.

I’m seeking advice on going forward.

The witness statement - which you have just deleted - says you refused to give your details and were going to be met by the police.

This isn't a ringing endorsement of the teaching profession to be honest.

There is probably a way out of this for you but you need to be honest and give people here the correct situation so it may be addressed properly. Don't waste our time by being vague or evasive. I'm not surprised they have charged you, but there is still likely a way to settle the matter without being prosecuted. It's up to you.


Did you or did you not buy the Railcard while on the train? Yes or no.

Yes, when I opened my account, I renewed the railcard. I gave the inspector my address, and name. They kept up the threat of calling the police etc because I didn’t understand why I had to pay a fine. When I asked how much it was, I was then told I couldn’t pay it?

 

[island]

There is no right to “pay a fine” (or to give it its formal name, a Penalty Fare). This is an option offered at the discretion of the inspectors, and they are entitled to change their minds. From the fragmented details you’ve posted it appears you were evasive, refused for a period of time to give your details, and/or attempted to renew your Railcard after you were caught. Any of these on their own would be adequate reason to escalate the matter from a Penalty Fare to a report for prosecution.

 

[AlterEgo]

I showed him what he wanted straight up. The railcard I clocked wasn’t loaded and I renewed it and downloaded it there and then.

Going forward with this particular matter I’m not sure what the best course of action is.

Not sure “the attitude test” comes into this. I was straight forward. Have had 9 railcards in 9 years since turning 16. Didn’t understand the escalation.

I’m seeking advice on going forward.


Yes, when I opened my account, I renewed the railcard. I gave the inspector my address, and name. They kept up the threat of calling the police etc because I didn’t understand why I had to pay a fine. When I asked how much it was, I was then told I couldn’t pay it?

So you did not have one when inspected, and instead tried to buy some time, and tried to hoodwink the inspector into thinking you had one all along by buying it on the train. They were obviously unimpressed by this and I don't blame them.

It's always better to just be honest about these things. And it would have been better to just pay the Penalty Fare and give your details (you are required to do the latter by law - if you refused initially, this is a further offence, although they don't seem to have bothered charging you with this).

As it is - I'm not sure if you were met by the police or whether this was just threatened - GTR have decided to prosecute you. The SJPN isn't usually the first thing that comes though. Did you receive any other correspondence, such as a letter asking for your side of the story? Normally this would be the time where you get to write back and apologise, and offer to pay the outstanding fare and so on.

 

[stuartl]

I showed him what he wanted straight up. The railcard I clocked wasn’t loaded and I renewed it and downloaded it there and then.

Going forward with this particular matter I’m not sure what the best course of action is.

Not sure “the attitude test” comes into this. I was straight forward. Have had 9 railcards in 9 years since turning 16. Didn’t understand the escalation.

I’m seeking advice on going forward.


Yes, when I opened my account, I renewed the railcard. I gave the inspector my address, and name. They kept up the threat of calling the police etc because I didn’t understand why I had to pay a fine. When I asked how much it was, I was then told I couldn’t pay it?

The final paragraph implies that you only renewed the railcard after you boarded the train when challenged by the inspector. Therefore your original
ticket was invalid. That's why you had tp pay a 'fine'.
Just seen that AlterEgo beat me to it !

 

[WesternLancer]

I showed him what he wanted straight up. The railcard I clocked wasn’t loaded and I renewed it and downloaded it there and then.

Going forward with this particular matter I’m not sure what the best course of action is.

Not sure “the attitude test” comes into this. I was straight forward. Have had 9 railcards in 9 years since turning 16. Didn’t understand the escalation.

I’m seeking advice on going forward.


Yes, when I opened my account, I renewed the railcard. I gave the inspector my address, and name. They kept up the threat of calling the police etc because I didn’t understand why I had to pay a fine. When I asked how much it was, I was then told I couldn’t pay it?

Ok thanks for explaining. I think you need to start following the usual advice on forums here to get an out of court settlement which given your job may be important. This is not impossible if you engage with the railway. See regular advice from @Hadders on the best approach.

Did you get anything from them in the post before the sjpn forms and if so how did you respond?

 

[ewdog]

Ok thanks for explaining. I think you need to start following the usual advice on forums here to get an out of court settlement which given your job may be important. This is not impossible if you engage with the railway. See regular advice from @Hadders on the best approach.

Did you get anything from them in the post before the sjpn forms and if so how did you respond?

I had nothing in the post other than the SJPN, which is rather worrying.

Thank you for the advice. Genuinely appreciate it. Not tried to come across as sly etc, just unsure of how to phrase certain things as I feel my back is against the wall.

Once again, big thank you for your time.

 

[30907]

I had nothing in the post other than the SJPN, which is rather worrying.

Thank you for the advice. Genuinely appreciate it. Not tried to come across as sly etc, just unsure of how to phrase certain things as I feel my back is against the wall.

Once again, big thank you for your time.

I am a little surprised that there was no covering letter indicating the alternative of a financial settlement, as ISTR this sometimes happens with GTR.

Despite it being at a late stage, it might still be worth contacting GTR prosecutions department in suitably apologetic mode to see if they would withdraw the prosecution.

If that fails, don't panic - a conviction (under Byelaw 18?) for boarding without a valid ticket should have little impact on your career, especially if GTR have no evidence of previous offences. You should consult your union rep and inform your HR people - failing to declare a minor conviction is much more serious than having one.

 

[ewdog]

I am a little surprised that there was no covering letter indicating the alternative of a financial settlement, as ISTR this sometimes happens with GTR.

Despite it being at a late stage, it might still be worth contacting GTR prosecutions department in suitably apologetic mode to see if they would withdraw the prosecution.

If that fails, don't panic - a conviction (under Byelaw 18?) for boarding without a valid ticket should have little impact on your career, especially if GTR have no evidence of previous offences. You should consult your union rep and inform your HR people - failing to declare a minor conviction is much more serious than having one.

Is it usually better to contact them via email, or over the phone?

The home address I gave is my mums, I asked her and there were no other letters. I will maybe enquire about this, as I’d probably have just sorted it at an early stage if possible.

 

[WesternLancer]

Is it usually better to contact them via email, or over the phone?

The home address I gave is my mums, I asked her and there were no other letters. I will maybe enquire about this, as I’d probably have just sorted it at an early stage if possible.

E mail. You won’t get far on phone imho. You can craft an e mail carefully. People here will check it and suggest amends if that may help. Follow up the email with a copy in post too I suspect. Probably tracked mail but be mindful of b Hol so you would want to catch sat morning post.

When is deadline to return court papers? Do not miss that I suspect.

That would be e mail etc to the railway. Not the court. It would be up to the railway to stop the court action process if you can persuade them to do so.

You need to be diplomatic, apologetic, assure them you now know the rules about railcard possession, won’t do it again and keen to settle the matter without the need for formal court action if they would be prepared to consider that.

But unfortunately the ball is with them at the end of the day.

I would think you have nothing to lose by that tho the alternative is probably to plead guilty to the sjpn if you are guilty that is, and then let the court process do what it does.

There are also solicitors who specialise in this area but of course that comes with the cost of their fees.

 

[pedr]

I understand reluctance to directly post statements which would incriminate yourself. It does mean it's more difficult for people here to see exactly what the situation was and what course of action might be best now.

In case it's not clear yet, though, it's a crime to board a train with a railcard-discounted ticket unless you have a valid, in-date railcard with you available to show to on-train staff. Often staff will not ask for the railcard, or will allow passengers to renew it if they see it's invalid, and there's some allowance if someone forgets to bring their valid railcard, but from the perspective of a ticket inspector, a passenger who says they need time to download their railcard - which implies that they've previously bought one which is currently valid - but then instead purchases one seems to be acting dishonestly, and that might explain the inspector deciding that the matter needs to be referred to the company for further investigation. Apart from anything else, the company may wish to try to find out how many journeys a passenger has made with a railcard-discounted ticket since their last railcard expired, since the tickets for those journeys were not valid. So while it may seem like an over-reaction, there is some logic to the approach taken, including the decision not to issue a Penalty Fare or to allow you to purchase a full-price ticket to replace the invalid ticket which you'd appeared to be using without a valid railcard.

It's not clear whether GTR have read the report from their inspector and decided to immediately begin a criminal prosecution or whether they attempted to send letters but these did not arrive, but advice to try to get in touch with them is wise. But as WesternLancer says, you must either respond to the SJP notice by the deadline or accept that the court will find you guilty and convict you of boarding a train for travel without a valid ticket.

 

[Camsus]

Generally, an intention to prosecute letter is sent out approximately 4 weeks prior to the SJPN, so it would likely have arrived at the address you provided around mid to late April.

I have to say, having read your rather cryptic account of things, it seems reasonable for GTR to pursue prosecution. You were found to be using a discounted ticket without having a valid railcard to support it. Buying one when challenged is not how it works. You state you declined to pay a penalty when that was offered, then you apparently refused to provide details when requested. The simple fact is you were in the wrong, yet clearly feel hard done by.

I fail to understand why someone would come on a forum like this, yet not give straight answers to people who are able to advise on how to best approach this.

 

[Hadders]

There are a couple of points here:

1. The railcard - you didn't have a valid railcard when you boarded the train and this in turn meant your ticket wasn't valid. We see lots of cases like this in this section of the forum involving GTR and an out of court settlement is normally offered if you co-operate with GTR and havn't come to their attention before.

2. The SJPN - it is highly unusual for GTR to go straight to a SJPN without first writing to the person asking for their version of events. Are you absolutely certain you didn't receive any correspondance. Could there be any other reason why GTR might decide not to offer an out of court settlement? It seems you were offered a Penalty Fare but then matters appear to have escalated and your details were taken and you were reported for further investigation. Was there an alteraction? Was there any other reason why the revenue staff took this course of action?

If you didn't receive an initial letter from GTR then I would email GTR's Prosecutions Office as a matter of urgency telling them what has happened and asking ifthey would consider offering an out of court settlement. I suggest putting a draft of your email in this thread so we can proof read it for you.

 

[ewdog]

There are a couple of points here:

1. The railcard - you didn't have a valid railcard when you boarded the train and this in turn meant your ticket wasn't valid. We see lots of cases like this in this section of the forum involving GTR and an out of court settlement is normally offered if you co-operate with GTR and havn't come to their attention before.

2. The SJPN - it is highly unusual for GTR to go straight to a SJPN without first writing to the person asking for their version of events. Are you absolutely certain you didn't receive any correspondance. Could there be any other reason why GTR might decide not to offer an out of court settlement? It seems you were offered a Penalty Fare but then matters appear to have escalated and your details were taken and you were reported for further investigation. Was there an alteraction? Was there any other reason why the revenue staff took this course of action?

If you didn't receive an initial letter from GTR then I would email GTR's Prosecutions Office as a matter of urgency telling them what has happened and asking ifthey would consider offering an out of court settlement. I suggest putting a draft of your email in this thread so we can proof read it for you.

Thank you.

I will draft and post this later today.

Just to clear up, even if GTR drop charges, I’d still have to respond to the letter within the (now) 29 days?

Just to clarify - the general gist of my mitigation email should be:

I realise I have committed an offence,

I apologise for such,

I will make sure not to make the same mistake again,

No covering letter was sent to my address

Is there a way to reach an out of court settlement?