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Sites for Labour's New Towns that already have rail connections

Magdalia

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Not a single free thinker or someone from an outside industry.
The Task Force is working under severe political, economic, environmental and time constraints.

It doesn't need free thinking that might lead to the housing equivalent of High Speed 2. It needs recommendations that are politically acceptable and economically and environmentally deliverable.

If I had a criticism of the composition of the task force it would be on the environmental aspect, especially climate change and water supply.
 
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HSTEd

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The Task Force is working under severe political, economic, environmental and time constraints.

It doesn't need free thinking that might lead to the housing equivalent of High Speed 2. It needs recommendations that are politically acceptable and economically and environmentally deliverable.


If I had a criticism of the composition of the task force it would be on the environmental aspect, especially climate change and water supply.
I doubt that any of its recommendations will amount to much, and if they do, that they will be implemented.

For example, the water supply issue only really has one solution, but it is one that Thames Water has managed to poison through incompetence (desalination).
I expect they will cleave to orthodoxy and get into endless trench warfare over reservoir construction or seize on a societal control solution (water rationing).
 

Meerkat

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I doubt that any of its recommendations will amount to much, and if they do, that they will be implemented.

For example, the water supply issue only really has one solution, but it is one that Thames Water has managed to poison through incompetence (desalination).
I expect they will cleave to orthodoxy and get into endless trench warfare over reservoir construction or seize on a societal control solution (water rationing).
Of course the political answer is just to ignore such awkward problems…….
The question is really how to find places to plonk new towns which will be popular enough to overcome the political damage of noisy NIMBYs.
 

Magdalia

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For example, the water supply issue only really has one solution, but it is one that Thames Water has managed to poison through incompetence (desalination).
I expect they will cleave to orthodoxy and get into endless trench warfare over reservoir construction or seize on a societal control solution (water rationing).

Of course the political answer is just to ignore such awkward problems…….
The question is really how to find places to plonk new towns which will be popular enough to overcome the political damage of noisy NIMBYs.
I'm much more concerned about the water companies than the NIMBYs.

Water is only an issue in the south east. Getting the Chatteris and Abingdon reservoirs built is going to be critical.

NIMBYs will get much less traction in the new parliament. One aspect that lots of people overlook is that the composition of parliament is very different now: about half of MPs are new and of younger generations than those they replaced. Most new MPs don't have the personal stake in being NIMBY that lots of their predecessors had.
 

Wolfie

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I'm much more concerned about the water companies than the NIMBYs.

Water is only an issue in the south east. Getting the Chatteris and Abingdon reservoirs built is going to be critical.

NIMBYs will get much less traction in the new parliament. One aspect that lots of people overlook is that the composition of parliament is very different now: about half of MPs are new and of younger generations than those they replaced. Most new MPs don't have the personal stake in being NIMBY that lots of their predecessors had.
Lots of the new MPs very definitely have a personal stake in keeping their seats though....
 

Nottingham59

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Lots of the new MPs very definitely have a personal stake in keeping their seats though....
Sure, but in general Labour MPs are more likely to have seats in urban areas, and the Conservative and Lib Dem MP are in rural areas. A conservative MP might fight against their constituency being nominated for a New Town, but they will have very little leverage - and NIMBY voters threatening to show their displeasure at the ballot box will have no impact.

That's very different to the previous government, where MPs like Graham Brady in Altrincham had huge influence in getting the Golborne link dropped.
 

HSTEd

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I'm much more concerned about the water companies than the NIMBYs.

Water is only an issue in the south east. Getting the Chatteris and Abingdon reservoirs built is going to be critical.
By 2050 pretty much everywhere in England will be in large scale water deficit.
The situation is deteriorating rapidly.
 

MPW

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One of the criteria for new housing is the provision of adequate public transport links. Indeed, the rationale for East-West Rail is to enable large developments at places like Cambourne.

Labour is promoting the idea of New Towns to solve the housing crisis. Rather than building new lines, where could these be located where there is already capacity on the rail network?
What about Milton Keynes itself? Phased redevelopment of the town car park centre at far higher density. Lots of room for bike and/or bus lanes to better connect all of it to the station.

As far cambridge area, where people are mentioning water issues... maybe the new town is somewhere further away that already is, or could be, within 30 minutes by train? The area between or around Stevenage and letchworth on existing railway or remodelled alignment.

Peterborough with a more direct connection from cambridge, relieving ECML and Ely junction (admittedly a bit HSUK).

Stansted. Is city airport expansion part of larger strategy to close and redevelop Stansted? New, larger research and medical facilities linked to cambridge? (Admittedly again, super speculative).
 

Bletchleyite

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What about Milton Keynes itself? Phased redevelopment of the town car park centre at far higher density. Lots of room for bike and/or bus lanes to better connect all of it to the station.

There's a lot of residential already in development both in CMK and at the sides of Campbell Park, both new build and office conversion, but you aren't going to sell flats to families, houses (even if densified in the form of 3 storey townhouses and the likes) are also needed, and while there are already some of those in CMK it's not the place for them really.

You aren't going to be able to take the parking out of CMK though there have been proposals to move a lot of it to multi storeys. The structure of the city doesn't work for effective public transport to replace it - the result of reducing car access to CMK would be CMK dying in favour of elsewhere e.g. the retail parks*. You could only solve that by either committing to significant long-term operating subsidy for the bus service to improve it to acceptable levels (something like 4bph within 500m of every home, perhaps, including the villages, which it's nowhere near) or nuking it from orbit and starting again.

* CMK is in effect a business park/out of town shopping centre hybrid, a bit like a smaller, less heavy-industrial Trafford Park, it isn't, and will likely never be, a traditional city centre - which is why it flummoxes me a bit that people will pay "premium flat" rates to live there! I can see why people do in London or Manchester due to the city vibe, but not CMK. CMK these days has the crime of a traditional city but none of the fun city vibe.
 

MPW

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There's a lot of residential already in development both in CMK and at the sides of Campbell Park, both new build and office conversion, but you aren't going to sell flats to families, houses (even if densified in the form of 3 storey townhouses and the likes) are also needed, and while there are already some of those in CMK it's not the place for them really.

You aren't going to be able to take the parking out of CMK though there have been proposals to move a lot of it to multi storeys. The structure of the city doesn't work for effective public transport to replace it - the result of reducing car access to CMK would be CMK dying in favour of elsewhere e.g. the retail parks*. You could only solve that by either committing to significant long-term operating subsidy for the bus service to improve it to acceptable levels (something like 4bph within 500m of every home, perhaps, including the villages, which it's nowhere near) or nuking it from orbit and starting again.

* CMK is in effect a business park/out of town shopping centre hybrid, a bit like a smaller, less heavy-industrial Trafford Park, it isn't, and will likely never be, a traditional city centre - which is why it flummoxes me a bit that people will pay "premium flat" rates to live there! I can see why people do in London or Manchester due to the city vibe, but not CMK. CMK these days has the crime of a traditional city but none of the fun city vibe.
I don't know the area but the grid pattern wide carriageways makes 4bph seem pretty doable. Then the central bit is flat and within 2km of the station at furthest, that's less than 10 minutes on what could be a nice segregated bike lane.

I'm not talking about a day 1 bulldoze. Phases revelopment from station working outwards could mitigate the disruption. Yes it would still be a massive project but the whole concept of new towns is a massive undertaking anyway. At least CMK has existing infrastructure. Park and ride could be a could temporary (or permanent) solution as well, so people can still drive from outlying areas then hop on bus for final bit. EWR might help with the park and ride bit.

To be clear: I'm not disagreeing with you! You probably know better than me. Just trying to tease out more of the rationale.
 

Bletchleyite

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I don't know the area but the grid pattern wide carriageways makes 4bph seem pretty doable.

It's not road capacity that's the issue, it's how unattractive bus travel is and how spread out it is meaning each route is only attractive to small numbers of people. People would go by car if they were paid £2 per bus journey. MK is designed and structured for the car and there is no hope at all of removing it without massive subsidy or bulldozing the lot and starting again. Realistically the best you're going to do is a push to switch to EVs by mass charging provision in CMK and elsewhere, and perhaps something like Uber Pool (recognising that you will only match up two journeys at most - big-bus DRT demonstrably doesn't work) but then again that's little better than private cars.

Then the central bit is flat

Have you ever been to CMK?

Clue: it's very much not flat. That does put people off going there by train when they have to walk a kilometre uphill to get to the nearest point of the shopping centre. The central bus spine is the only way to really make it work, which is how it's been for a long time.

and within 2km of the station at furthest, that's less than 10 minutes on what could be a nice segregated bike lane.

You'd need a lot of hire bikes for that! Hire bikes are not mass transport pretty much by definition - the concept of them is for people doing journeys that *aren't* well served by public transport. You'll note the TfL ones aren't located directly outside stations and there's a good reason why. They're in effect a healthier and cheaper taxi substitute (and indeed that's how I use them here).

MK is otherwise quite well set up for cycling and e-bikes take away the hills - but there is a big bike theft problem - I used to leave my bike at MKC station but definitely wouldn't now! Dutch "bewaakte Fietsenstallingen" - staffed cycle storage - would be a good thing but there's a limit to how many will cycle even with that.

I'm not talking about a day 1 bulldoze. Phases revelopment from station working outwards could mitigate the disruption. Yes it would still be a massive project but the whole concept of new towns is a massive undertaking anyway. At least CMK has existing infrastructure.

Apart from roads it really doesn't. And it's structured wrongly for public transport.

I don't doubt MK will expand, I reckon another 20 years will expand it to 400K. But really it would be better to start again - one thing I'd seriously look at is medium sized ecotowns around each Marston Vale station, though the planned ecotown might kibosh a couple of the stations.

Park and ride could be a could temporary (or permanent) solution as well, so people can still drive from outlying areas then hop on bus for final bit.

MK has had P&R before and nobody used it. It's not a concept that works very well in a car friendly city.

EWR might help with the park and ride bit.

Literally nobody will P&R on a 2tph frequency unless going a long distance. You need a much more frequent service for it to work - I'd say 4 at a bare minimum, ideally 6.

I could see sense in adding a Newton Longville Parkway though Bletchley doesn't lack spaces, but that would be for going to Oxford, not CMK.
 

Mgameing123

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It's not road capacity that's the issue, it's how unattractive bus travel is and how spread out it is meaning each route is only attractive to small numbers of people. People would go by car if they were paid £2 per bus journey. MK is designed and structured for the car and there is no hope at all of removing it without massive subsidy or bulldozing the lot and starting again. Realistically the best you're going to do is a push to switch to EVs by mass charging provision in CMK and elsewhere, and perhaps something like Uber Pool (recognising that you will only match up two journeys at most - big-bus DRT demonstrably doesn't work) but then again that's little better than private cars.



Have you ever been to CMK?

Clue: it's very much not flat. That does put people off going there by train when they have to walk a kilometre uphill to get to the nearest point of the shopping centre. The central bus spine is the only way to really make it work, which is how it's been for a long time.



You'd need a lot of hire bikes for that! Hire bikes are not mass transport pretty much by definition - the concept of them is for people doing journeys that *aren't* well served by public transport. You'll note the TfL ones aren't located directly outside stations and there's a good reason why. They're in effect a healthier and cheaper taxi substitute (and indeed that's how I use them here).

MK is otherwise quite well set up for cycling and e-bikes take away the hills - but there is a big bike theft problem - I used to leave my bike at MKC station but definitely wouldn't now! Dutch "bewaakte Fietsenstallingen" - staffed cycle storage - would be a good thing but there's a limit to how many will cycle even with that.



Apart from roads it really doesn't. And it's structured wrongly for public transport.

I don't doubt MK will expand, I reckon another 20 years will expand it to 400K. But really it would be better to start again - one thing I'd seriously look at is medium sized ecotowns around each Marston Vale station, though the planned ecotown might kibosh a couple of the stations.



MK has had P&R before and nobody used it. It's not a concept that works very well in a car friendly city.



Literally nobody will P&R on a 2tph frequency unless going a long distance. You need a much more frequent service for it to work - I'd say 4 at a bare minimum, ideally 6.

I could see sense in adding a Newton Longville Parkway though Bletchley doesn't lack spaces, but that would be for going to Oxford, not CMK.
Milton Keynes could make an attractive bus network by running frequent bus routes on all dual carriageways in the city.
 

Bletchleyite

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Milton Keynes could make an attractive bus network by running frequent bus routes on all dual carriageways in the city.

...says another person who's clearly never been here and doesn't understand the city's demographics.

Originally this was done, and it works in parts of the city, but some "grid squares" are too big for it to work. And as mentioned it's all so low density that frequent services would be highly costly of subsidy.

MK is not Barcelona (which does have a bus network of that nature).
 

BrianW

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...says another person who's clearly never been here and doesn't understand the city's demographics.

Originally this was done, and it works in parts of the city, but some "grid squares" are too big for it to work. And as mentioned it's all so low density that frequent services would be highly costly of subsidy.

MK is not Barcelona (which does have a bus network of that nature).
Could Starship-like driverless buses (or pods- https://getaroundmk.org.uk/news/autonomous-pods) reduce the need for subsidy?
 

Magdalia

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What about Milton Keynes itself?
Sir Michael Lyons said this on Tuesday in Milton Keynes:

There are “lots of reasons” to consider building a new town near Milton Keynes, according to the chair of a government taskforce.

Sir Michael Lyons said the city was “bound to be an area you look at” because it was in the M1 corridor and in between Oxford and Cambridge.

He made the comments while visiting the city with the New Towns Taskforce.

For full BBC report see here:


As far cambridge area, where people are mentioning water issues... maybe the new town is somewhere further away that already is, or could be, within 30 minutes by train?
That's Tempsford, where the proposed EWR alignment crosses the ECML.

The area between or around Stevenage and letchworth on existing railway or remodelled alignment.
These places have significant commuting by train already, but it is mostly to London, not Cambridge.

Peterborough with a more direct connection from cambridge, relieving ECML and Ely junction (admittedly a bit HSUK).
60 years ago we had that with a procession of Whitemoor-Temple Mills coal trains using it. Now half of it is a road (A142) and the other half is a guided busway.

Stansted. Is city airport expansion part of larger strategy to close and redevelop Stansted? New, larger research and medical facilities linked to cambridge? (Admittedly again, super speculative).
Now there is a "free thinking" idea!
 

Wolfie

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What about Milton Keynes itself? Phased redevelopment of the town car park centre at far higher density. Lots of room for bike and/or bus lanes to better connect all of it to the station.

As far cambridge area, where people are mentioning water issues... maybe the new town is somewhere further away that already is, or could be, within 30 minutes by train? The area between or around Stevenage and letchworth on existing railway or remodelled alignment.

Peterborough with a more direct connection from cambridge, relieving ECML and Ely junction (admittedly a bit HSUK).

Stansted. Is city airport expansion part of larger strategy to close and redevelop Stansted? New, larger research and medical facilities linked to cambridge? (Admittedly again, super speculative).
City airport is even worse placed in terms of atmospheric and noise pollution and the impact on the population than is Heathrow. It's initial opening was subject to major restrictions. Those are slowly being eroded which is increasingly causing the local population, as well as climate protestors, issues. Oh and quite a proportion were there before the airport opened! Expect civil disobedience on a large scale if your suggestion is pursued.
 

MPW

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...says another person who's clearly never been here and doesn't understand the city's demographics.

Originally this was done, and it works in parts of the city, but some "grid squares" are too big for it to work. And as mentioned it's all so low density that frequent services would be highly costly of subsidy.

MK is not Barcelona (which does have a bus network of that nature).
As a straight white male, I don't normally find myself discriminated against. Finally I can point to something: a person which hasn't been to Milton Keynes.

MK is about as flat as my phone screen, in my experience. Self-deprication aside, it does seem to be considered a relatively flat location with gentle hills at most. If we are talking up to 2km cycle from station, it is far more accessible than somewhere like Bristol, Brighton, or Sheffield. Gentle enough that even non-elecrrified bikes, with gears, make it doable for most people.

Apart from street view, I have also done some PHD-level research (googled "is Milton Keynes hilly?"). Attached landscape assessment.
 

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BrianW

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As a straight white male, I don't normally find myself discriminated against. Finally I can point to something: a person which hasn't been to Milton Keynes.

MK is about as flat as my phone screen, in my experience. Self-deprication aside, it does seem to be considered a relatively flat location with gentle hills at most. If we are talking up to 2km cycle from station, it is far more accessible than somewhere like Bristol, Brighton, or Sheffield. Gentle enough that even non-elecrrified bikes, with gears, make it doable for most people.

Apart from street view, I have also done some PHD-level research (googled "is Milton Keynes hilly?"). Attached landscape assessment.
MK appears to have an extensive network of 'redways'- https://getaroundmk.org.uk/cycling/where-to-ride
I imagine that any new New Town or Extension would have similar 'planned in'.
 

Mgameing123

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...says another person who's clearly never been here and doesn't understand the city's demographics.

Originally this was done, and it works in parts of the city, but some "grid squares" are too big for it to work. And as mentioned it's all so low density that frequent services would be highly costly of subsidy.

MK is not Barcelona (which does have a bus network of that nature).
Subsidy is fine. Bus routes shouldn't be ran for profit.
 

Merle Haggard

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Perhaps 'lessons can be learned' for future new towns from some aspects of Milton Keynes development. The web shows that it was 'founded' in 1967 although it was only in the early 1970s that construction really got under way.
But it wasn't until 1984 that a hospital was opened in Milton Keynes; until then, Milton Keynes residents relied on Northampton General Hospital for all services including what is now called Accident & Emergency. Obviously that had a deleterious effect on the care for Northampton residents, the hospital being scaled for the local population.
But it's easy to dismiss worry about these sorts of problems as NIMBY-ism, isn't it?
Milton Keynes shopping centre was opened in 1979, five years before Milton Keynes hospital...
 

Bletchleyite

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As a straight white male, I don't normally find myself discriminated against. Finally I can point to something: a person which hasn't been to Milton Keynes.

MK is about as flat as my phone screen, in my experience.

This is factually incorrect. It's not mountainous, but it is certainly hilly in places, particularly from the station to the shopping centre and along Watling St.
 

AlastairFraser

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This is factually incorrect. It's not mountainous, but it is certainly hilly in places, particularly from the station to the shopping centre and along Watling St.
I can confirm this. There is definitely a significant hill down Midsummer Boulevard - which is a bugger if your bus terminates at the shopping centre and you want to catch a train from the station without the bus!
 

HSTEd

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Move to Scotland? We have no shortage of the stuff up here. :lol:
I'm not sure how well major migration from England into Scotland would go down with the current Scottish political landscape!

I guess the midges would feast though
 

JamesT

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I'm not sure how well major migration from England into Scotland would go down with the current Scottish political landscape!

I guess the midges would feast though
The politicians in Scotland are generally pro-Immigration. It has a slower growth rate than the rest of the UK and some parts are even depopulating. Whether they’re in tune with the rest of the country…
 

Nottingham59

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By 2050 pretty much everywhere in England will be in large scale water deficit.
The situation is deteriorating rapidly.
I suspect the answer will eventually be to put a barrage across the Wash and turn it into a massive freshwater reservoir, capturing all the flow from the Nene and the Ouse and Witham. And then divert most of the flow in the Trent along the line of the Fossdyke into the Witham at Lincoln.

That should keep Cambridge growing for the next century.


EDIT: you'd have to raise the level of Torksey weir keep the tidal Trent out, and raise embankments downstream of Newark and through Lincoln to contain the higher water levels.
 
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HSTEd

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I suspect the answer will eventually be to put a barrage across the Wash and turn it into a massive freshwater reservoir, capturing all the flow from the Nene and the Ouse and Witham. And then divert most of the flow in the Trent along the line of the Fossdyke into the Witham at Lincoln.

That should keep Cambridge growing for the next century.
This has been proposed before, and trials were conducted (See the Outer Trial Bank).
However it does not appear that the trial went particularly well.

I think desalination is probably the answer.

But desalination is associated in politicians minds with the enormous costs of plants in the 1990s and 2000s.
 

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