Sleeper Formations

[SouthernCrescent]

Does anyone know what the various sleeper trains usually run with. I know the Inverness always has six Mark 3 sleepers, a lounge and one of the combined seated coaches / brake vans, but what about the others? When I last saw the Fort William version it had the brake / seated coach, lounge and two sleepers. Does anyone know what the Aberdeen, Glasgow, Edinburgh and West of England sleepers usually run with?

 

[rail-britain]

The Inverness varies, between four and six sleepers, plus the BUO and lounge car
The Aberdeen varies four or five sleeper, plus the BUO and lounge car
The Fort William has two sleepers, with the BUO and lounge car between Edinburgh and Fort William

Glasgow and Edinburgh are six sleepers, BUO and lounge car

FGW have two sets of sleepers per train, making a total of four sleepers
There is then a Mk3a TSO, RFB, and M3b BFO, taking the total train length to 7 coaches

 

[jopsuk]

Further: the Aberdeen, Inverness and Fort William trains are one south of Edinburgh, with a maximum length of sixteen carriages. Two of these are the sleepers from the Fort William portion, four the two sets of BUO and Lounge each for Aberdeen and Inverness, then the remaining (up to) ten cars are the Inverness and Aberdeen sleeper cars (obviously arranged more sensibly than that order). The BUO and Lounge for Fort William are attached and detached at Waverly when the train is split up/formed.

Similarly, the Edinburgh and Glasgow sleepers run as a single sixteen carriage train south of Carstairs. The four Caledonian sleeper trains (Highland North and South bound, Lowland North and South bound) are the longest domestic trains in operation.

Someone must know the answer to this- Sixteen (plus loco) is the maximum length. Is this based on:
A: The platform length at Euston
B: Some sort of Network Rail restriction (that there was an exception for for Eurostars?) on the length of passenger train sets?
C: What can be hauled behind a Class 90
?

 

[Fuzzy Logic]

Further: the Aberdeen, Inverness and Fort William trains are one south of Edinburgh, with a maximum length of sixteen carriages. Two of these are the sleepers from the Fort William portion, four the two sets of BUO and Lounge each for Aberdeen and Inverness, then the remaining (up to) ten cars are the Inverness and Aberdeen sleeper cars (obviously arranged more sensibly than that order). The BUO and Lounge for Fort William are attached and detached at Waverly when the train is split up/formed.

Similarly, the Edinburgh and Glasgow sleepers run as a single sixteen carriage train south of Carstairs. The four Caledonian sleeper trains (Highland North and South bound, Lowland North and South bound) are the longest domestic trains in operation.

Someone must know the answer to this- Sixteen (plus loco) is the maximum length. Is this based on:
A: The platform length at Euston
B: Some sort of Network Rail restriction (that there was an exception for for Eurostars?) on the length of passenger train sets?
C: What can be hauled behind a Class 90
?

A, I think. It's a pretty lengthy formation, considering there has to be room for a LE at Euston too, for/from the ECS.

 

[me123]

It's definitely due to platform lengths at Euston.

 

[TEW]

West of England Sleeper is a MK3b Brake First Open, A MK3a Trailer Standard Open, a MK3a Buffet/Lounge Car and then 3-5 MK3a Sleeper Coaches Depending on Demand, usually 4 compared to 3 pre refurbishment. All the seated coaches have the same First Class seats despite having Standard and First designations.

 

[adc82140]

All the seated coaches have the same First Class seats despite having Standard and First designations.

Am I right in thinking these were recycled from HST 1st class vehicles when they were refurbished?

 

[SouthernCrescent]

The Fort William BUO and lounge being added and removed in Edinburgh explains why the timetable states 'passengers travelling by seated accommodation must change coaches in Edinburgh'. I've always thought that must be a bit of a pain swapping coach in the middle of the night! Has anyone ever done it? Presumably the reservation system must always be leaving space in either the Inverness or Aberdeen BUO's for the Fort William passengers to get into?!

 

[rail-britain]

I was going to do it once, but decided against it
Fort William seated passengers travel in the Inverness portion between London Euston and Edinburgh

 

[djw1981]

I have doen it - not too much issues, since the changes are at roughly 1-1.30am and 4-4.30am (depending on direction) and given the smoothness of some of the EWS shunting etc, you may not be asleep anyway!

The only exception to M8's statement about the FTW passengers moving to the INV portion is if it is very full, when they have to walk further, to the ABD seated section.

Going Northbound, passengers should not that teh FTW seated section can be very cold (even in summer) after 3hrs sat (not under station canopy) at Waverley with the droplights in the doors often open

 

[rail-britain]

Sleeper seated passengers between Fort William and London are supposed to have seating reservations
Once the seats are taken on the Inverness portion then bookings are supposed to close
However, as you say, the train crew will normally suggest they try the Aberdeen portion to see if there are spare seats

I hardly noticed the jolting of the trains combining southbound
However I was in the Inverness portion, the worst would probably be the Aberdeen as it get sandwiched by both portions!

 

[TEW]

Am I right in thinking these were recycled from HST 1st class vehicles when they were refurbished?

Yes, been re upholstered including Dynamic Line seat covers, very very comfortable.

 

[SouthernCrescent]

Yes, been re upholstered including Dynamic Line seat covers, very very comfortable.

Are they more comfortable than the Scotrail BOU's? The BOU's use seating not too different from the daytime Scotrail first class seats (on 170's). They are not bad but I find they don't recline enough for a proper sleep. My other complaint would be that some of them are facing another seat which is fine if you are with a friend but you don't like sharing leg space so much with a stranger!

 

[djw1981]

Whenever I went in seated sleeper on FSR they were 2+1 FC style reclining seats, more HST style rather than !&) style. They were very comfortable.

 

[laseandre]

I think you mean 170 there, djw!

 

[djw1981]

Ah Yes. wella !&) beats a !%* anyday

 

[laseandre]

Too right! Though I am quite partial to a !%^

 

[TEW]

Are they more comfortable than the Scotrail BOU's? The BOU's use seating not too different from the daytime Scotrail first class seats (on 170's). They are not bad but I find they don't recline enough for a proper sleep. My other complaint would be that some of them are facing another seat which is fine if you are with a friend but you don't like sharing leg space so much with a stranger!

I would say they look more comfortable than the Scotrail ones, they are very comfortable but they are all facing each other but in my expreince never that busy.

 

[Ascot]

It runs as 2x 8 coach set. Lowland is 8 Edinburgh and 8 Glasgow.

Highland is 8 Inverness and 8 Outstation which is 6 Aberdeen and 2 Fort William. However in demand they can drop an Aberdeen and put it on the Fort William so it's 3 for 3.

When they get to Wembley they swap round so Highland becomes lowland set and vice versa so they all get to Inverness for a deep clean every 8 days (that's the set of 8 coaches).

When leaving Euston on the Highland there are the 2 Sleeper coaches to Fort William followed by the 4 to Aberdeen and a RLB and a BUO. Then there's the 6 to Inverness followed by the RLB and BUO.

When leaving Edinburgh on the Highland, at the Haymarket end is the Aberdeen BUO RLB then sleeper coaches, the 2 Fort Williams, then the Inverness lot.

Lowland is pretty straight forward leaving Euston with Edinburgh at the back and Glasgow at the front. At Carstairs going south Glasgow at the front and Edinburgh hooks on the back.

There's a Berth attendant per 2 coaches and they each have a cubbyhole.

EDIT: Here's a fancy layout, of course it can change to demand such as 1st class or standard or the extra FTW etc...

http://img523.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sleeperlayoutie8.jpg

 

[SouthernCrescent]

Thanks for all that information, Ascot. Those diagrams are really useful. I wonder why the Aberdeen sleeper is so short. I would have thought there would be just as big a market from Aberdeen, but then again the Inverness sleeper serves all those popular holiday towns right up the Highland Mainline.

 

[Ascot]

Thanks for all that information, Ascot. Those diagrams are really useful. I wonder why the Aberdeen sleeper is so short. I would have thought there would be just as big a market from Aberdeen, but then again the Inverness sleeper serves all those popular holiday towns right up the Highland Mainline.

It's because the main Depot is Inverness and they need to do a big clean of each set. So they do half a train and the other half is split to the Outstations and Aberdeen is a bigger market than Fort William like Oil Rigs etc... That's the reason for Inverness being half a train and Aberdeen being 6 load.

Thought i explained it in my original post, sorry if it wasn't clear.

 

[rail-britain]

It's because the main Depot is Inverness and they need to do a big clean of each set. So they do half a train and the other half is split to the Outstations and Aberdeen is a bigger market than Fort William like Oil Rigs etc... That's the reason for Inverness being half a train and Aberdeen being 6 load

I've been following the sets for sometime and they don't seem to quite follow that pattern
Quite often I have seen the same set operate between Glasgow and London for several days, and then a few weeks later between Aberdeen and London

In effect this is what should happen with a set...
Inverness - London
London - Glasgow
Glasgow - London
London - Edinburgh
Edinburgh - London
London - Aberdeen / Fort William
Aberdeen / Fort William - London
London - Inverness

However, it does appear that there is great flexibility between whether a set goes to Glasgow, Edinburgh, or Aberdeen / Fort William
Presumably this takes into account time keeping, layover at Wembley, and so on

Also interesting to note that one of the sleepers I was on a few weeks ago between Inverness and London was not in use yet it was in the set
There was a fault with the air conditioning and Inverness had been unable to fix it
Seems a complete waste to send it back out, rather than take the sleeper out of the set and reinsert it either the following day or next, and then rematch it back into a set
Unless Wembley can also repair sleepers?

 

[Ascot]

I've been following the sets for sometime and they don't seem to quite follow that pattern
Quite often I have seen the same set operate between Glasgow and London for several days, and then a few weeks later between Aberdeen and London

In effect this is what should happen with a set...
Inverness - London
London - Glasgow
Glasgow - London
London - Edinburgh
Edinburgh - London
London - Aberdeen / Fort William
Aberdeen / Fort William - London
London - Inverness

However, it does appear that there is great flexibility between whether a set goes to Glasgow, Edinburgh, or Aberdeen / Fort William
Presumably this takes into account time keeping, layover at Wembley, and so on

Also interesting to note that one of the sleepers I was on a few weeks ago between Inverness and London was not in use yet it was in the set
There was a fault with the air conditioning and Inverness had been unable to fix it
Seems a complete waste to send it back out, rather than take the sleeper out of the set and reinsert it either the following day or next, and then rematch it back into a set
Unless Wembley can also repair sleepers?

Isn't there like 2 sleepers, and a RLB BUO spare only as well?

 

[rail-britain]

There are spares; two sleepers, one BUO, one RFB, and one RLB
However, I've only ever seen one spare sleeper in Inverness, so I presume the other is at Wembley, the other two "spare" sleepers in Inverness are being canabilsed for spares (they are both still in INTERCITY livery)
I also presume there is a spare RLB / RFB at Wembley
I have seen a spare BUO at Inverness, but it always seems to be the same one, however with the recently acquired "spare" Mk2 coaches now in Inverness presumably this will return to service shortly

 

[Ascot]

There are spares; two sleepers, one BUO, one RFB, and one RLB
However, I've only ever seen one spare sleeper in Inverness, so I presume the other is at Wembley, the other two "spare" sleepers in Inverness are being canabilsed for spares (they are both still in INTERCITY livery)
I also presume there is a spare RLB / RFB at Wembley
I have seen a spare BUO at Inverness, but it always seems to be the same one, however with the recently acquired "spare" Mk2 coaches now in Inverness presumably this will return to service shortly

The BUO has been swapped with the Fort William one a few months ago as well which is why it is the wrong way round.

 

[P156KWJ]

Too right! Though I am quite partial to a !%^

!%^$)" is rancid £&))( is hellfire

anyway, I am considering the sleeper to FW next year (berths), and does this mean I don't have to change carriages like seated sleepers? And also, the shunters better do a good job and not bump the carriages too much

 

[me123]

No need to change for you; the two carriages in the train that do continue to FTW are the two sleepers. As you say, hopefully they won't wake you up when shunting the ^& onto the front, but then again maybe you'd like to witness the movements?

 

[laseandre]

Sulzer, ^&))$ is rancid. It's the only loco that ever does the WH sleeper. Which you're getting. Haha! I prefer ())"! though.

 

[me123]

Yeah, ^&))$ is a poor example, but I have seen another 67 (can't remember the number) that could almost put a £& to shame!

 

[laseandre]

Maybe that was ))(?