Sleeper supplements - All Line Rovers

[garnon]

I tried to book a Fort William - London Euston berth paying the £45 supplement to compliment the first class ALR ticket I have.

Although full price first class berths (with Z1 travel etc) were available, Scotrail refused to sell the supplement stating that the quota of supplements available was already sold.

I did not realise supplement tickets were quota controlled. Is this correct ?

 

[Sleepy]

:roll: I am very surprised if they are now quota controlled - try booking at non - Scotrail station (if in London try Liverpool St. as they were very good recently when I made Sleeper booking !)

 

[rail-britain]

There is a restriction for just three such tickets on the Fort William Sleeper, suggesting the day you were considering is now fully booked which is quite possible for the rest of June

However, if you are trying to book a Sunday, there is currently an issue and reservations are currently suspended whilst a decision from Network Rail is awaited

 

[garnon]

There is a restriction for just three such tickets on the Fort William Sleeper, suggesting the day you were considering is now fully booked which is quite possible for the rest of June

However, if you are trying to book a Sunday, there is currently an issue and reservations are currently suspended whilst a decision from Network Rail is awaited

It is a Sunday (4th July). And it is the Fort William service. Can you elaborate on the issue ?
The operator confirmed berths were available if i paid the full price.

 

[bnm]

I think it comes down to the bottom line, with a bit of yield management thrown in. ScotRail will only get a relatively small proportion of revenue from your 1st Class All Line Rover, which is divvied up between all TOCs; probabably a lot less than their ORCATS share of the London to Fort William 1st Class fares. So I think they are justified in restricting the number of Berths available to ALR holders, particularly if they can fill the berths will full fare passengers.

Slightly risky idea, (worked for me in the past with a 1st ALR) but you could just turn up and try for available unsold berths on the night. If the Highland Sleeper is full, there's still the Lowland to Glasgow/Edinburgh then an onward day service to FTW. I've yet to be turned away from both. I've made approx 20 northbound trips on the sleepers in the preceeding years, all with walk-up or ALR ticket.

 

[garnon]

I think it comes down to the bottom line, with a bit of yield management thrown in. ScotRail will only get a relatively small proportion of revenue from your 1st Class All Line Rover, which is divvied up between all TOCs; probabably a lot less than their ORCATS share of the London to Fort William 1st Class fares. So I think they are justified in restricting the number of Berths available to ALR holders, particularly if they can fill the berths will full fare passengers.

Slightly risky idea, (worked for me in the past with a 1st ALR) but you could just turn up and try for available unsold berths on the night. If the Highland Sleeper is full, there's still the Lowland to Glasgow/Edinburgh then an onward day service to FTW. I've yet to be turned away from both. I've made approx 20 northbound trips on the sleepers in the preceeding years, all with walk-up or ALR ticket.

Logic accepted. And presumably it would be equally applied if I held a first open (Anytime) single for the route and requested the same supplement.

But it does seem to introduce the concept of a 'restriction' to the ALR (ie in the same way as a discounted ticket) which is perhaps unexpected ?

 

[yorkie]

I doubt there is an ALR quota! Berths almost certainly operate in the same way as seats - there is a quota for inter-available tickets.

I assume that they only get ORCATS revenue for the seats that are available for inter-available ticket holders?

 

[Sleepy]

If travel plans fixed why not book a Std Solo supplement (exclusive use of twin berth cabin) for £54 ?

 

[garnon]

If travel plans fixed why not book a Std Solo supplement (exclusive use of twin berth cabin) for £54 ?

I shall try that. Thank you.

 

[yorkie]

Yes that's worth a try, as there are likely to be separate quotas for:
* Standard class seats;
* Standard class berths;
* First class berths.

 

[rail-britain]

All the First Class sleepers are fully booked for ALR on that Sunday
Sundays have been reduced to NIL, FSR only want to carry full fare customers

If you want to travel on the Sunday you will need to book on to the Glasgow service, this has the entire availability for northbound ALR holders
I noticed that last year, and it is the same this year
This only applies on Fridays and Sundays

There is a possibility the sleepers may NOT be diverted on Sundays, discussions are ongoing with Network Rail, from July onwards
A decision has still to be made on this

 

[garnon]

All the First Class sleepers are fully booked for ALR on that Sunday
Sundays have been reduced to NIL, FSR only want to carry full fare customers

If you want to travel on the Sunday you will need to book on to the Glasgow service, this has the entire availability for northbound ALR holders
I noticed that last year, and it is the same this year
This only applies on Fridays and Sundays

There is a possibility the sleepers may NOT be diverted on Sundays, discussions are ongoing with Network Rail, from July onwards
A decision has still to be made on this

Many thanks for this post which helps clarify a lot.
Is the same true on that Sunday for southbound sleepers? (ie nil availability for ALR) ?

 

[rail-britain]

Is the same true on that Sunday for southbound sleepers? (ie nil availability for ALR) ?

Yes; June, July, August, and September

You won't run into any problem on the :
Aberdeen (Friday and Sunday), providing you book at least a month in advance
Inverness, Aberdeen (other days) and Edinburgh, providing you book at least two weeks in advance
Glasgow, providing you book at least three days in advance

I changed my plans so that my Fort William trip was on the Tuesday instead
That way the Sunday trips were from Glasgow Central and Aberdeen
On a Friday northbound / Sunday southbound, the Aberdeen allocation is reduced and limited to three

 

[garnon]

Thanks for all of the replies and suggestions.

I tried most of the advice provided :

a) I have an open first single (not an ALR). - No supplement available
b) Seated accommodation not available - sold out
c) upgrade a second class berth to a solo. Unavailable.

I was offered a second class berth (available) but the operator could not find an option to sell this to a first class customer. He very much wanted me to refund my open first single and make a saving. Good advice actually, but of course i had an ALR.

No big loss, I have booked onto the Glasgow sleeper instead.

One last question. It is the last day of my ALR and therefore i am relying on the advice provided in a previous thread that the conditions of carriage allow you to "...finish your journey you started.." on the last day of the ticket's validity..so long as you do not change trains etc.

Does anyone have the precise reference to this please ?

 

[Sleepy]

HTH
text from "The Manual" relating to full fare tickets states:
The outward portions of Anytime Returns are valid for five days including the date shown on the ticket. Return portions of Anytime Return tickets are valid for travel until 0230 on the day following the last day of validity (i.e. one calendar month from outward journey). If a passenger is still travelling at 0230, they may stay on the train to complete that part of the journey but no further break of journey is allowed and all travel must be completed by 1200.

Note: Cross London transfers will only be accepted by London Underground on the date shown on the ticket (or last day of validity for Anytime Returns) and until 0429 the following day.

So I assume your ALR is valid until 4th July and you depart Glasgow at 2139 on Sunday evening you will have no problem at all !
Enjoy your travels !!

 

[rail-britain]

No big loss, I have booked onto the Glasgow sleeper instead.

One last question. It is the last day of my ALR and therefore i am relying on the advice provided in a previous thread

What you should have done was made FSR aware of this
Your journey destination is Fort William, but it is fully booked (which it is NOT)
You have booked on the Glasgow
I suggest you now contact FSR, make them aware you are travelling on a ALR and your journey destination is Fort William but you have only been able to book on the Glasgow sleeper leaving you short of your final destination

 

[garnon]

HTH
text from "The Manual" relating to full fare tickets states:
The outward portions of Anytime Returns are valid for five days including the date shown on the ticket. Return portions of Anytime Return tickets are valid for travel until 0230 on the day following the last day of validity (i.e. one calendar month from outward journey). If a passenger is still travelling at 0230, they may stay on the train to complete that part of the journey but no further break of journey is allowed and all travel must be completed by 1200.

Note: Cross London transfers will only be accepted by London Underground on the date shown on the ticket (or last day of validity for Anytime Returns) and until 0429 the following day.

So I assume your ALR is valid until 4th July and you depart Glasgow at 2139 on Sunday evening you will have no problem at all !
Enjoy your travels !!

Perfect. Thank you - much appreciated
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What you should have done was made FSR aware of this
Your journey destination is Fort William, but it is fully booked (which it is NOT)
You have booked on the Glasgow
I suggest you now contact FSR, make them aware you are travelling on a ALR and your journey destination is Fort William but you have only been able to book on the Glasgow sleeper leaving you short of your final destination

I am travelling southbound. Glasgow to Euston. Different service. No connection whatsoever with the Fort William service.

The intended Fort William - Euston trip proved abortive.

Besides, the supplement for ALR and an open single is exactly the same. Why would FSR want to know specific details, providing a valid ticket can be produced ?

 

[rail-britain]

Besides, the supplement for ALR and an open single is exactly the same. Why would FSR want to know specific details, providing a valid ticket can be produced ?

The supplement is the same, the revenue is very different
For the SOR FSR retain a big chunk
For the ALR FSR recover a small amount

The agent at Glasgow Central got round the restriction by simply booking mine as a SOR, then cancelling the ticket

 

[yorkie]

There are some dubious claims on this thread.

I suspected the claim of a separate ALR quota may not be true, and the fact that garnon asked if there were any places if he had a SOR and was told no, is strong evidence to support my view.

I am pretty sure that the quotas are simply FSR tickets and inter-available tickets. Nothing else would make sense and would be highly dubious.

FSR must not be getting ORCATS revenue for the seats and berths that only allow FSR tickets. I wonder if anyone reading this can find out if that is indeed the case.

I find it a little unusual that FSR are unwilling to take the ORCATS revenue, given that other operators are desperate to cram in as many seats as possible (including taking out toilets just to get a few extra seats) and running trains almost empty on some routes to get an ORCATS slice.

Why do FSR give out 29 pound bargain berths if they don't want the ORCATS revenue on that berth PLUS a 36 pound (or whatever it is these days) berth supplement, I wonder.

 

[rail-britain]

FSR would much rather sell their own range of tickets

The idea behind "Bargain Berths" is that some people make larger bookings
FSR keep all this revenue
A small number of people book a "Bargain Berth" but also have to pay full price for the other passengers in the party

When it comes to the seats again FSR would much rather sell their own range of tickets

If there are any seats or berths left in the last two days, the restrictions are removed for these

A good example is trying to book on Fridays or Sundays
Typically the entire range of FSR tickets are sold out within 4 weeks
If the service is going to be busy it is fully booked within the next 4 weeks
In the last two days if there any seats or berths then these are reloaded back into "Bargain Berths"

FSR has full control over the reservations on their sleepers

A similar model exists on the FGW sleeper, but is not such an issue as there is less demand

 

[yorkie]

but they only get ORCATS revenue for the seats / berths they make available for any permitted / lancaster routed tickets, right?

and I don't think there is an ALR specific quota

 

[rail-britain]

I don't think there is an ALR specific quota

Sadly there is, as I found out last year
A further investigation showed the limits only apply to specific trains and days
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

but they only get ORCATS revenue for the seats / berths they make available for any permitted / lancaster routed tickets, right?

All seats and berths are available
However, FSR have loaded this in their favour by offering THEIR tickets first
They then load them into the reservations and cancel the availability

 

[yorkie]

That doesn't seem right. What you are suggesting appears to indicate a potential ORCATS scam, if true....

 

[rail-britain]

This is First Group we are talking about here, take some rules and bend them...
That was why I quit after three months

 

[garnon]

That doesn't seem right. What you are suggesting appears to indicate a potential ORCATS scam, if true....

Possibly irrelevant, but all three 'ALR' sleeper bookings i made for that week have 'Anytime 1st single' marked on the sales receipt.

 

[rail-britain]

That is correct if the reservation is made at a station, the reservation has to be made using a First Single, and the ticket is then cancelled
FSR do it direct on their own reservations, and when using a ALR they prefer to sell you a ticket and so they decline the transaction