Sleepers trains from London to Europe.

[Austriantrain]

Not the French Govt's view though - they seem to have ambitious plans.

They still have to prove they can make them work though. The French are quite good at grand plans…

But Paris-Austerlitz is a problem. Perhaps SNCF could be persuaded to start all their night trains at East, us8ng the Ceinture to head south?

I believe that even changing from Nord to Est will discourage many people. What seems to be underestimated here that a large proportion of people using night trains do so because these are fed up with the hassle of air travel (at least that is the experience from Central Europe). They won’t accept changing stations with all of their luggage.

 

[trebor79]

bags also need checking due to channel tunnel safety requirments

Again, that could be done by the attendant when boarding.
And why does the channel tunnel have more onerous requirements that longer tunnels elsewhere? Is it time they were reviewed?

 

[SynthD]

Why would you have to do that? What's wrong with the old European model of the attendant taking your passport, wishing you good night and then handing it back to you in the morning?
Or the Slovakian model of men with machine guns and big dogs waking you in the middle of the night to check your face matches the passport and then letting you go back to sleep?
No need to get off the train at all.

The Home Office wants it.

 

[30907]

They still have to prove they can make them work though. The French are quite good at grand plans…

True, but they have made a start.

I believe that even changing from Nord to Est will discourage many people. What seems to be underestimated here that a large proportion of people using night trains do so because these are fed up with the hassle of air travel (at least that is the experience from Central Europe). They won’t accept changing stations with all of their luggage.

You may well be right, sadly.
The problem is that you can't run into Austerlitz from the north or Nord from the south (assuming the Petite Ceinture is not a real option now) so serving Lille/Brussels and Paris with one train doesn't work.
Amsterdam/Brussels/Lille-Mediterranean might work but requires a reversal at Lille which adds to cost.

 

[popeter45]

Again, that could be done by the attendant when boarding.
And why does the channel tunnel have more onerous requirements that longer tunnels elsewhere? Is it time they were reviewed?

how do you propose attendants search every bag in a timely manner without a x-ray scanner?
the safety requirements are 2 fold,
1) the tunnel is still very much a target for terrorism (e.g IRA derivitives), AVE network has same bag check requirements for that reason
2) underwater tunnels are inherintly more at risk than underground tunnels as damage caused by dangerous items not only has potential to dammage sections of the tunnel but also risk of flodding entire tunnel network

 

[trebor79]

how do you propose attendants search every bag in a timely manner without a x-ray scanner?
the safety requirements are 2 fold,
1) the tunnel is still very much a target for terrorism (e.g IRA derivitives), AVE network has same bag check requirements for that reason
2) underwater tunnels are inherintly more at risk than underground tunnels as damage caused by dangerous items not only has potential to dammage sections of the tunnel but also risk of flodding entire tunnel network

With a scanner, as you point out the Spanish manage it without undue delays.
There's zero chance of anything in a bag having the potential to cause seawater to flood the tunnel! You realise there's tens of metres of chalk, clay and rock between the sea bed and the tunnel?

 

[stuu]

how do you propose attendants search every bag in a timely manner without a x-ray scanner?
the safety requirements are 2 fold,
1) the tunnel is still very much a target for terrorism (e.g IRA derivitives), AVE network has same bag check requirements for that reason
2) underwater tunnels are inherintly more at risk than underground tunnels as damage caused by dangerous items not only has potential to dammage sections of the tunnel but also risk of flodding entire tunnel network

And yet I could drive a 40 tonne truck onto a train to go through that same tunnel and it is highly unlikely it will be checked. It is theatre, nothing more.

 

[popeter45]

With a scanner, as you point out the Spanish manage it without undue delays.
There's zero chance of anything in a bag having the potential to cause seawater to flood the tunnel! You realise there's tens of metres of chalk, clay and rock between the sea bed and the tunnel?

a) where do you put this scanner?, they are big machines so need to be placed somwhere
b) yes AVE does have massive delays with boarding due to the bag checks, they treat AVE terminals like we do with eurostar, totally segregated
c) you would be supprised how many people try taking back "souvenir" unexplosed shells from the western front, big enough issue Eurostar have to explicity state then as prohibited items on their website

And yet I could drive a 40 tonne truck onto a train to go through that same tunnel and it is highly unlikely it will be checked. It is theatre, nothing more.

they do actually check trucks, you drive thru a massive backscatter scanner

 

[trebor79]

a) where do you put this scanner?, they are big machines so need to be placed somwhere
b) yes AVE does have massive delays with boarding due to the bag checks, they treat AVE terminals like we do with eurostar, totally segregated
c) you would be supprised how many people try taking back "souvenir" unexplosed shells from the western front, big enough issue Eurostar have to explicity state then as prohibited items on their website


they do actually check trucks, you drive thru a massive backscatter scanner

I've been on AVE, the scanner was no bigger than one in an airport and there were no massive queues.
A WW1 shell might kill a couple of people, but it's not going to flood the tunnel. I'd say it's more.lkmely to pinch a hole in the hull of a ferry, but somehow we don't need scanners there.
As @stuu says, it's security theatre. When it opened the channel tunnel was unique so you can understand why they came up with some OTT stuff. It's not unique now, by any means.
You need to be scanned to go through the channel tunnel, but not to catch a javelin to St Pancras, which goes through a lot of tunnel. Daft.

 

[Austriantrain]

You need to be scanned to go through the channel tunnel, but not to catch a javelin to St Pancras, which goes through a lot of tunnel. Daft.

It is, and even more so if you compare it, say, with the Gotthard base tunnel.

The problem is that it is politically unpalatable to reduce existing security arrangements- what if something happens after it is done?

In any case, as long as the UK insists on having immigration before boarding a train on the continent, the security controls are just an additional hassle, but don’t really change anything fundamental.

 

[popeter45]

I've been on AVE, the scanner was no bigger than one in an airport and there were no massive queues.

they are still large non-handheld machines, do you suggest wheeling one out at every station?, waiting ages to process everybody or dedicated holding areas for passengers once thru?
like as you said at airports you dont just see flight attendants checking bags and passports like you suggest should be done

it's security theatre. When it opened the channel tunnel was unique so you can understand why they came up with some OTT stuff. It's not unique now, by any means.

if you feel that way feel free to message the home sec about your plans, surely that your views will definitely get rules changed
at the end of the day even if your views differ the fact of the matter are these are the rules and dont set to change so are the roadblock

 

[AlterEgo]

They aren't popular, because they're fully booked?! That's pretty bizarre logic.

The night train market is booming. Every year new routes are launched. Paris - Vienna, Berlin to Graz and Amsterdam to Zurich last year, Hamburg to Copenhagen and Prague - Zurich this year, next year Prague - Brussels, Berlin - Paris and more. The only brake on launching new routes is that new stock being built for new services isn't ready yet.

Agreed. Sleeper trains are in the peak of a new renaissance, and the network of night trains is only expanding. They’re extremely popular and demand far outstrips capacity on many routes.

 

[SynthD]

It's not unique now, by any means.

What is the unsaid comparison?

 

[stuu]

they do actually check trucks, you drive thru a massive backscatter scanner

Those check for illegal immigrants, not explosives or drugs or whatever. Some do get x-rayed as well but not many. I have driven a van through and definitely didn't get any sort of check.

 

[trebor79]

What is the unsaid comparison?

Gotthard and other very long tunnels on the continent. HS1 tunnels. HS2 tunnels.
Arguably there's a much greater risk traversing the Severn tunnel but nobody suggests scanners or restrictions on luggage contents there.

they are still large non-handheld machines, do you suggest wheeling one out at every station?, waiting ages to process everybody or dedicated holding areas for passengers once thru?
like as you said at airports you dont just see flight attendants checking bags and passports like you suggest should be done


if you feel that way feel free to message the home sec about your plans, surely that your views will definitely get rules changed
at the end of the day even if your views differ the fact of the matter are these are the rules and dont set to change so are the roadblock

Yes, they can be wheeled out to a platform in advance of the service calling. With gatelines etc now common place it's not complicated to start with an empty platform and screen everyone entering for one service.
The sarcasm I will allow to speak for itself.

 

[popeter45]

Arguably there's a much greater risk traversing the Severn tunnel but nobody suggests scanners or restrictions on luggage contents there.

but those dont cross a international boarder

remeber also these checks are also checking for smuggling and customs checks, trucks dont have to go thru these checks as declare what they are carrying and as large buisnesses can be trusted and subject to fines if found to have been dishonest, not so much for joe blogs trying to sneak in 500 untaxed cigs to sell

Yes, they can be wheeled out to a platform in advance of the service calling. With gatelines etc now common place it's not complicated to start with an empty platform and screen everyone entering for one service.
The sarcasm I will allow to speak for itself.

so you want to lug this massive macchine to a narrow platform every day for dozens of stations, provide power( much more than a simple 13A socket), take an entire platform out of use for an hour to make sure nobody is hiding, find a way to segregate cleared passengers from non cleared etc?
sounds like didicated security facilities to me

 

[Route115?]

You could probably fill one or two vehicles to at least a dozen European locations but this would require a lot of shunting and would be wholly uneconomic. The top locations (Paris, Brussels & Amsterdam) are too short to benefit from sleepers. Also if travelling alone most people will want a single berth and probably an en suite. This means that you will only be able to accomodate around 15 per vehicle so you will have to charge a high fare. There are a lot of environmental claims made but until you totally but given the low seating density I think that you would be far better spending the money on local transit schemes.

I've often wondered if you could use a shunting yard in the same way as an air hub (think of Dubai) and indeed have through coaches between a wide variety of stations. Could be an interesting study.

 

[zwk500]

I've often wondered if you could use a shunting yard in the same way as an air hub (think of Dubai) and indeed have through coaches between a wide variety of stations. Could be an interesting study.

No specific operational reason why not, although plenty of financial ones. Didn't the original Nightstar plans have portions for Paris and Brussels coming from both Scotland and Wales, with complicated shunting arrangements at Kensington or somewhere to get them all sorted out in each direction.

You could do a giant shunting puzzle at Brussels Midi/Zuid, although at London and Paris the rings of terminals would make onward workings much more awkward. But it's an interesting concept - London, Paris, Amsterdam, Berlin, Cologne, etc all work to Midi, then sit in the station overnight as portions get shuffled around the station for hours to get everybody on the right trains, setting off in the early hours. And then somebody ends up halfway to Hanover when they were meant to go to Milan...

 

[SynthD]

I've often wondered if you could use a shunting yard in the same way as an air hub (think of Dubai) and indeed have through coaches between a wide variety of stations. Could be an interesting study.

I’d read that study.

However, with the border control that voters want, I suspect that Paris/Amsterdam stations/hotels are the best hubs for journeys to the UK with sleeper trains. Travel on Eurostar in the day, then choose from the many day or night options that French and Dutch rules and markets offer.

 

[popeter45]

You could probably fill one or two vehicles to at least a dozen European locations but this would require a lot of shunting and would be wholly uneconomic. The top locations (Paris, Brussels & Amsterdam) are too short to benefit from sleepers. Also if travelling alone most people will want a single berth and probably an en suite. This means that you will only be able to accomodate around 15 per vehicle so you will have to charge a high fare. There are a lot of environmental claims made but until you totally but given the low seating density I think that you would be far better spending the money on local transit schemes.

I've often wondered if you could use a shunting yard in the same way as an air hub (think of Dubai) and indeed have through coaches between a wide variety of stations. Could be an interesting study.

sunting could be cut down alot if portions had abilty to move themselves as EMU's even of not used in that function most of the time

No specific operational reason why not, although plenty of financial ones. Didn't the original Nightstar plans have portions for Paris and Brussels coming from both Scotland and Wales, with complicated shunting arrangements at Kensington or somewhere to get them all sorted out in each direction.

You could do a giant shunting puzzle at Brussels Midi/Zuid, although at London and Paris the rings of terminals would make onward workings much more awkward. But it's an interesting concept - London, Paris, Amsterdam, Berlin, Cologne, etc all work to Midi, then sit in the station overnight as portions get shuffled around the station for hours to get everybody on the right trains, setting off in the early hours. And then somebody ends up halfway to Hanover when they were meant to go to Milan...

while not realistic ive always like to draw up plans thinking out this and had the following that

a 8 car run (4 to Paris and 4 to Amsterdam) from edinbugh to birminham new steet (via York,Leeds annd manchester via diesel across penines)
4 car run (to Paris) from Swansea/Cardiff also to birmingham new street that attatches to the front of the edinbugh train to form a 12 car run
onwards to St pancreas via NLL where an additional 4 cars (to Amsterdam) are added to rear (now front) and class 92 attanched to front
carry on to Calias Frethum or Ville where split into 2 8 cars pulled to paris and Amsterdam respectivly

idea still runs into security issues (maybe dedicated 2-3 car Customs portion to do checks on the move but that gets messy especally with PRM) but closest plan ive had yet to anything usuable without crazy multi shunting taking place

 

[RT4038]

Why would you have to do that? What's wrong with the old European model of the attendant taking your passport, wishing you good night and then handing it back to you in the morning?

Because those days of trust have long, long gone. Immigration control requires the face of each person to be checked, and the passport to be scanned. Nowhere 'checks' passports on this basis nowadays.

Or the Slovakian model of men with machine guns and big dogs waking you in the middle of the night to check your face matches the passport and then letting you go back to sleep?
No need to get off the train at all.

Probably because this takes more men than the model of getting off, and passing a desk (or through e-gates) is more efficient and reliable than shining torches into people's faces in the night (which would hardly be a good travel experience anyway)

The Authorities will want everybody off the train so it can be properly searched for stowaways, and for the luggage to be security scanned (no matter your arguments about other tunnels or other traffic in this tunnel; no politician is going to risk relaxing the rules).

 

[61653 HTAFC]

But Paris-Austerlitz is a problem. Perhaps SNCF could be persuaded to start all their night trains at East, us8ng the Ceinture to head south?

Is Austerlitz still a building site? It was when I used it in late 2018. It was at least a single ride from Nord on the Metro, so Est would be no better other than being an easy walk for those willing or able.

I'd certainly consider using a sleeper from St. Pancras to (for example) Frankfurt or Lyon, but not if it meant getting up at 3am for passport and security checks at Lille. Checks at stations as per Eurostar is the way to go, but that limits the scope as you need to invest in the facilities to do it at those stations where they don't already exist. At least as long as UK Government refuses to budge on border controls, something I can't see changing even in the long-term.

 

[D6130]

The problem is that you can't run into Austerlitz from the north or Nord from the south (assuming the Petite Ceinture is not a real option now) so serving Lille/Brussels and Paris with one train doesn't work.

Yes....the Nord-Lyon section of the Petite Ceinture has now largely been converted into a 'greenway' walking/cycling/leisure route between the tunnels. One track has been lifted....but the other remains in situ covered in some kind of rolled-out all-weather walking surface - so perhaps SNCF are hedging their bets against future developments? There are several exploration videos of the route on YouTube, but I'm afraid I'm unable to do a link.

 

[30907]

I've often wondered if you could use a shunting yard in the same way as an air hub (think of Dubai) and indeed have through coaches between a wide variety of stations. Could be an interesting study.

This is effectively what OeBB do at Nuremberg and Salzburg , and CD at Breclav and Bohumin, every night, though only 2-3 trains involved.

 

[zwk500]

This is effectively what OeBB do at Nuremberg and Salzburg , and CD at Breclav and Bohumin, every night, though only 2-3 trains involved.

Tbf it also happens at Edinburgh 6 nights a week.

 

[30907]

Tbf it also happens at Edinburgh 6 nights a week.

Except that all 3 portions come from/go to London, rather than serving two English destinations on the hub model.

 

[zwk500]

Except that all 3 portions come from/go to London, rather than serving two English destinations on the hub model.

True, but similar concept. - After all, 2 coaches get dropped and left behind for the later train, so it's not just a pure attach-all and away.

 

[Chester1]

Again and again: if night trains are going to have a future from London, it is going to be via a change at Brussels Midi.

That, unfortunately, will exclude good connections to the South of France and Spain (and probably Italy), even though those might be the most successful, because
- SNCF does not care for night trains, and even less for those not running from Paris
- even if it were different, the change from Lille Europe to Lille Flandres would discourage most potential passengers (and Lille Europe is unlikely to have enough capacity to start night trains from there).

So you have Vienna and you might get Berlin, Zurich, Prague (all hypothetically) and maybe even some scandinavian destination at some point, if E* is willing to offer connections and through tickets.

I completely agree on Brussels. Its the best sleeper train enthusiasts are going to get. If Brussels gets more sleeper services there could be possibility of through tickets from St Pancras.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I completely agree on Brussels. Its the best sleeper train enthusiasts are going to get. If Brussels gets more sleeper services there could be possibility of through tickets from St Pancras.

Brussels used to get you most of Germany (Hamburg and Berlin originating from Paris, Frankfurt, Nuernberg and Muenchen and into Austria on the Donauwalzer starting there) and even well into eastern Europe and Russia using the likes of the Jan Kiepura. It does seem to be the most sensible node for going that way.

 

[D6130]

Just a shame that there's no overnight service from Brussels to Italy, following withdrawal of the Thello service from Paris. I wonder whether one of the new open access operators might be interested in starting such a service - either via the Paris suburbs, or via Germany and Switzerland - even if only during the Summer season? As always, I suppose the biggest hurdle would be finding suitable stock. When we last used the Paris-venice Thello in May 2019, the train was rammed....and international tourism to Italy has now made a strong comeback since Covid.