Smartphones

[Techniquest]

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Same principle for smartphones, buying one these days means it's pre-loaded with so much junk that you can't uninstall, it would be funny if it wasn't so criminal.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Same principle for smartphones, buying one these days means it's pre-loaded with so much junk that you can't uninstall, it would be funny if it wasn't so criminal.

That's one reason I switched to Apple. There's one iOS, no junk on top. Though if you want vanilla-ish Android the Google Pixel phones provide that.

With a new PC uninstalling and reinstalling Windows is often a good bet, though it is easier just to remove the tripe than on a phone.

 

[stuu]

Same principle for smartphones, buying one these days means it's pre-loaded with so much junk that you can't uninstall, it would be funny if it wasn't so criminal.

They do help reduce the cost of the phone in the first place though, the apps have paid to be installed on the phone. Although perhaps they are missing a trick not selling a minimum app version for a higher price

 

[Techniquest]

That's one reason I switched to Apple. There's one iOS, no junk on top. Though if you want vanilla-ish Android the Google Pixel phones provide that.

With a new PC uninstalling and reinstalling Windows is often a good bet, though it is easier just to remove the tripe than on a phone.

I can see me switching to Apple before too long. If there was simply an option to uninstall all the stuff I don't want, then by all means let them pre-install it. Some of it is fine to get rid of, but some of it is a permanent feature and is really annoying!

They do help reduce the cost of the phone in the first place though, the apps have paid to be installed on the phone. Although perhaps they are missing a trick not selling a minimum app version for a higher price

As I mentioned above, all they have to do is give an option to uninstall it. Not everyone wants their phone preloaded with games, social media and streaming services. I certainly don't! Having them permanently installed on the phone is just ridiculous, whether or not the likes of *that* social media company have paid to be on everyone's phone.

Quite, if nothing else give the customer the heads-up and therefore the choice of whether or not they go for that particular device.

It would be the same thing if I was buying a new cycle, I would expect any non-required features to be removable and/or swapped out for things I actually want.

 

[johncrossley]

Though if you want vanilla-ish Android the Google Pixel phones provide that.

The Motorola Moto G range of phones come with near stock Android, and have long had a reputation for great value.

 

[JamesT]

I can see me switching to Apple before too long. If there was simply an option to uninstall all the stuff I don't want, then by all means let them pre-install it. Some of it is fine to get rid of, but some of it is a permanent feature and is really annoying!

The longevity of Apple support appeals, shame they don’t really offer a cheap phone.

 

[stuu]

As I mentioned above, all they have to do is give an option to uninstall it. Not everyone wants their phone preloaded with games, social media and streaming services. I certainly don't! Having them permanently installed on the phone is just ridiculous, whether or not the likes of *that* social media company have paid to be on everyone's phone.

I bought my son a Poco phone which was very cheap but had a ludicrous number of preinstalled apps. They could all be removed though. I don't remember coming across an app that couldn't be at least be disabled and therefore not intrusive on any Android phone I have owned

 

[Domh245]

The Motorola Moto G range of phones come with near stock Android, and have long had a reputation for great value.

"Android One" is the most stock version of android - and is available on mostly Nokias and Motos

Pixels AIUI whilst running stock android do have some exclusive features not available to other android devices

 

[johntea]

I've always been an Apple user but helped my aunt set up a cheap Samsung phone she had bought the other week - as part of the setup process it made the installation of...TIKTOK mandatory! (apparently an 'essential' app!)

 

[JohnMcL7]

There's hardly any extra additional apps Samsung have installed on my phone and a few of them are to make improvements over the stock OS in areas where Android is weak, four years of support now as well.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's hardly any extra additional apps Samsung have installed on my phone and a few of them are to make improvements over the stock OS in areas where Android is weak, four years of support now as well.

Unfortunately Samsung see fit to replace stock apps which means (among other reasons) I will never buy one of their products. Add to them by all means, but the core stock apps should always be included.

 

[Broucek]

The Motorola Moto G range of phones come with near stock Android, and have long had a reputation for great value.

I’ve had two Motos in a row and would strongly recommend. My G7 Power is 2.5 years old and STILL has a two day battery life…

 

[ComUtoR]

That's one reason I switched to Apple. There's one iOS, no junk on top.

As an IT professional; I thought you would know better.

Safari is pre loaded. Music is pre loaded, Facetime is pre loaded, Weather is pre loaded. There is always going to be 'junk on top'

I use firefox on my laptop and Adblock on my phone as my daily go to browsers. I use the Huawei music app which is probably the first time I've ever used a pre backed music app. VLC has been my default for everything video since the death of Winamp (may it forever kick the Llama's ass)

Android and Apple both pre load their own default software. Yes, mostly done for commercial reasons but generally its consumer friendly to have something out of the box and ready to go. Instagram/Ticktok etc are used by millions of people all round the world. It makes sense to pre load these sort of apps.

 

[nlogax]

Android and Apple both pre load their own default software. Yes, mostly done for commercial reasons but generally its consumer friendly to have something out of the box and ready to go. Instagram/Ticktok etc are used by millions of people all round the world. It makes sense to pre load these sort of apps.

I think we can respect there's a difference between vendor's own apps or the random crap that they chuck on their builds from third parties. Samsung used to be terrible for this but have improved over the years.

They've not completely upped their game though. On my midrange 2020-era Galaxy two or three third party apps are baked into the base Android image meaning they can only be taken back to version x.y instead of being completely uninstalled. I've resorted to disabling specific apps and the auto updates for them via Google Play. Just an unnecessary faff.

 

[eMeS]

I'm afraid that I rely on an old Nokia 6030 (for calling emergency services in the event of an accident) - it's reliable, and more to the point, I can manage it. I was given a basic Samsung Smartphone two years ago, but sadly, I'm not smart enough to get anything useful out of it. Recently, it's updated itself, and the BBC News App now requires me to sign in with a password - No Way! - and I don't seem to be able to delete what is now a waste of space.

Similarly, my doorstep milk delivery (been here since 1982, and it's been reliable over the decades) has now decided that I control it via the web. (I used to leave notes in the neck of a returned milk-bottle.) That was fine a year ago, when the website was easily accessed; but now I'm expected to use a password when accessing my account. No way! Passwords are for more important things like Bulletin Boards!

(For the record, I was born before WWII.)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Similarly, my doorstep milk delivery (been here since 1982, and it's been reliable over the decades) has now decided that I control it via the web. (I used to leave notes in the neck of a returned milk-bottle.) That was fine a year ago, when the website was easily accessed; but now I'm expected to use a password when accessing my account. No way!

Eh? Why wouldn't I want security on something that affects me financially (even if only in small sums)?

 

[najaB]

I can see me switching to Apple before too long. If there was simply an option to uninstall all the stuff I don't want, then by all means let them pre-install it. Some of it is fine to get rid of, but some of it is a permanent feature and is really annoying!

There are several brands that offer near-stock ROM images, with little bloatware. As mentioned above, Moto, Nokia and Pixel phones have very little bloat installed, as do some Sony and Asus phones. And, if you really want to, you can flash a custom ROM which are available for many devices (e.g. LineageOS).

 

[D365]

The longevity of Apple support appeals, shame they don’t really offer a cheap phone.

iPhone SE (2020 or 2022 model) is perfectly useable. The latest model is 5G-capable.

I was given a basic Samsung Smartphone two years ago, but sadly, I'm not smart enough to get anything useful out of it. Recently, it's updated itself, and the BBC News App now requires me to sign in with a password - No Way! - and I don't seem to be able to delete what is now a waste of space.

Sadly, I suspect this changed is linked to ongoing TV licensing shenanigans.

 

[najaB]

Recently, it's updated itself, and the BBC News App now requires me to sign in with a password - No Way! - and I don't seem to be able to delete what is now a waste of space.

Just create a throwaway email address for such things - either a Hotmail/Yahoo!/Gmail address that you use for nothing else, or a one-time address from the likes of Mailinator.com.

 

[JamesT]

iPhone SE (2020 or 2022 model) is perfectly useable. The latest model is 5G-capable.

The SE starts at £419, that’s not cheap. My current phone was £250 new and that’s the most expensive phone I’ve ever bought. The SE is a strange phone, it has the guts of a high end model but in an older shell with a small and comparatively low resolution screen.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sadly, I suspect this changed is linked to ongoing TV licensing shenanigans.

It's not. It's just that the BBC wants "big data" on those consuming its content.

 

[sor]

As an IT professional; I thought you would know better.

Safari is pre loaded. Music is pre loaded, Facetime is pre loaded, Weather is pre loaded. There is always going to be 'junk on top'

I use firefox on my laptop and Adblock on my phone as my daily go to browsers. I use the Huawei music app which is probably the first time I've ever used a pre backed music app. VLC has been my default for everything video since the death of Winamp (may it forever kick the Llama's ass)

Android and Apple both pre load their own default software. Yes, mostly done for commercial reasons but generally its consumer friendly to have something out of the box and ready to go. Instagram/Ticktok etc are used by millions of people all round the world. It makes sense to pre load these sort of apps.

I'm not sure anyone would call a web browser "junk". A key difference between the Google and Apple stock apps is that the latter is generally not tied to a subscription. You can subscribe to Apple Music, but you don't need to; I think you can even still load MP3s as you've been able to do with any iDevice for 20 years. I doubt the weather app is a huge money spinner, you can't subscribe to it!

It would make more sense for the user to be presented with a menu of popular apps that they can choose to install at their choice. I think this was was something Microsoft had to do when the EU decided they had too much of a browser monopoly, EU copies of Windows would have a menu that allowed you to keep using IE or to download another browser for you.

The SE starts at £419, that’s not cheap. My current phone was £250 new and that’s the most expensive phone I’ve ever bought. The SE is a strange phone, it has the guts of a high end model but in an older shell with a small and comparatively low resolution screen.

The SE will probably last a lot longer though, particularly around software and security updates where even Android flagships are hit and miss in terms of long term support. I have the 2020 model that I bought in 2020, while I'd like 5G I am not going to upgrade for it, in every other respect the phone feels new and fresh. The idea is that the SE can be made cheaper because it reuses the expensive machining and tooling from an older model. It's surprising that the 2022 is unchanged, but I suppose it offers an option for those who don't want Face ID and the notch.

I don't notice the screen as being particularly low res, I haven't seen pixels since Apple launched "retina".

 

[Bletchleyite]

The SE starts at £419, that’s not cheap. My current phone was £250 new and that’s the most expensive phone I’ve ever bought. The SE is a strange phone, it has the guts of a high end model but in an older shell with a small and comparatively low resolution screen.

Used is sometimes not a bad bet for Apple kit, as there are plenty of people who always have the latest model, and they can get more by selling privately than trading in, just like with a car.

As for pre-loading apps, it's only really that much of an issue if you have a very basic phone with very low storage capacity. Otherwise you just ignore them - I for instance ignore Apple Mail (I use the Gmail and Outlook apps) and Apple Music (I use Spotify) and I'm sure others. Even with a 16GB iPad I'm nowhere near running out of space and I have loads of apps, you only really need more if copying lots of music/films onto the internal storage. It's only the very budget Android phones with 8GB or less that have an issue, and I've long said that if you're going to get a smartphone you want to at least go midrange (like most of the Motorolas) or you'll just hate it.

It's rather different from the junk you get on new Windows laptops which isn't only there but is running, taking up memory and slowing the machine down. Additional, unnecessary virus scanners are one fine example; Windows Defender is fine.

The thing I dislike is changes to the OS or the omission of the Google provided default apps as Samsung does.

 

[MikeWM]

Just create a throwaway email address for such things - either a Hotmail/Yahoo!/Gmail address that you use for nothing else, or a one-time address from the likes of Mailinator.com.

The problem with that is that it is very hard to setup such an account anymore without providing a (verified) phone number, which makes it considerably less throwaway.

Of course you could also use a throwaway phone number, but that's not going to help in 6 months time when they decide you need to be verified via that phone number again in order to continue to access your account.

I currently have this problem with a GMail account I've had for 15+ years - it won't now let me log in at all without supplying a phone number. For all manner of reasons, I've no intention of giving Google my real phone number. But if I give it a throwaway one, and then forget to maintain the throwaway number one way or other, then at some point in the future I'll be locked out of the account in a rather more permanent way. So I'm at rather an impasse. Fortunately there's nothing particularly important in that account, but it is a troubling development.

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The SE starts at £419, that’s not cheap. My current phone was £250 new and that’s the most expensive phone I’ve ever bought. The SE is a strange phone, it has the guts of a high end model but in an older shell with a small and comparatively low resolution screen.

Pretty poor battery life, too. A 12 or 13 mini is better, but that adds another £200 or so, and even those are being phased out by Apple in the never-ending, rather baffling quest for ever bigger phones.

 

[najaB]

The problem with that is that it is very hard to setup such an account anymore without providing a (verified) phone number, which makes it considerably less throwaway.

Mailinator requires no verification. Other similar providers may exist.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The problem with that is that it is very hard to setup such an account anymore without providing a (verified) phone number, which makes it considerably less throwaway.

Of course you could also use a throwaway phone number, but that's not going to help in 6 months time when they decide you need to be verified via that phone number again in order to continue to access your account.

I currently have this problem with a GMail account I've had for 15+ years - it won't now let me log in at all without supplying a phone number. For all manner of reasons, I've no intention of giving Google my real phone number. But if I give it a throwaway one, and then forget to maintain the throwaway number one way or other, then at some point in the future I'll be locked out of the account in a rather more permanent way. So I'm at rather an impasse. Fortunately there's nothing particularly important in that account, but it is a troubling development.

Google have my phone number and thus far I'm not aware of them ever having done anything with it, I very rarely receive any kind of spam phone call or text. There's GDPR to rein them in a bit anyway. I don't consider it secret, after all landline numbers used to be in a big book!

Whereas two-factor authentication is VERY valuable and makes serious inroads into preventing identity theft which is a genuinely serious issue.

I don't see anything troubling about it at all. I only would were I engaged in criminal activity, but I'm not. Why should a business not be able to identify its customers?

Mailinator requires no verification. Other similar providers may exist.

If you trust Apple but not someone else, iOS automatically does it if you want when you sign up to new stuff.

 

[Broucek]

the never-ending, rather baffling quest for ever bigger phones.

Interesting perspective. I find that the older I get, the bigger I need my phone to be - I was always baffled by the ever smaller trend, particularly when it led to less powerful batteries and the removal of a proper headphone socket

 

[MikeWM]

Mailinator requires no verification. Other similar providers may exist.

Admittedly I'd not heard of it before, but nevertheless on a quick search it seems fairly well-known, and so presumably many websites won't allow it as a valid email address.

Worth a try I guess, as long as you're sure only a one-time verification is needed and it doesn't matter if you won't have access to the account in the future. I have used other similar services in the past, but not for anything that I'd regret losing access to later!

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Google have my phone number and thus far I'm not aware of them ever having done anything with it, I very rarely receive any kind of spam phone call or text. There's GDPR to rein them in a bit anyway. I don't consider it secret, after all landline numbers used to be in a big book!

Landline numbers didn't create a detailed profile of your movements and activities, combined with the contents of your emails and your web searches and history. The privacy implications are significantly different - but I don't want to derail this thread in the way I often do on such matters, so let's leave that at that for now.

Whereas two-factor authentication is VERY valuable and makes serious inroads into preventing identity theft which is a genuinely serious issue.

Privacy arguments aside, it also creates all manner of other problems. What if I lose my phone, or it is stolen? What if I don't have it with me? What if it isn't charged, or isn't getting a signal? What if I'm abroad? It makes things that were previously simple, significantly more difficult. Of course there are important trade-offs between privacy, convenience and security to be considered, but I don't like this trend one bit, for all manner of reasons.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Interesting perspective. I find that the older I get, the bigger I need my phone to be - I was always baffled by the ever smaller trend, particularly when it led to less powerful batteries and the removal of a proper headphone socket

I love the iPhone 13 Mini, best phone I've had. But I do recognise that the reason there are very few small but decent-spec phones is that hardly anyone wants them.

Privacy arguments aside, it also creates all manner of other problems. What if I lose my phone, or it is stolen? What if I don't have it with me? What if it isn't charged, or isn't getting a signal? What if I'm abroad? It makes things that were previously simple, significantly more difficult.

Yes, that's true.

Of course there are important trade-offs between privacy, convenience and security to be considered, but I don't like this trend one bit, for all manner of reasons.

However, identity theft is catastrophic, so it's very much the case that there's no better option.

 

[MikeWM]

Interesting perspective. I find that the older I get, the bigger I need my phone to be - I was always baffled by the ever smaller trend, particularly when it led to less powerful batteries and the removal of a proper headphone socket

You may note we didn't get the headphone socket back though, however large the phones get! Another irritation of modern life.

I want something that fits in my shirt pocket, which rules out most modern phones. I rather liked the original (2016) iPhone SE but the battery on mine is pretty dead now, and it is sufficiently out-of-date that I don't see much point in replacing it.

However, identity theft is catastrophic, so it's very much the case that there's no better option.

I agree entirely that identity theft is catastrophic, but the problem is that we're now tying up all of our identity information and proof into one object that is remarkably easy to lose or get stolen. No longer having your phone, for whatever reason, would cause so many problems that you may never catch back up.

But worse than that is that, by putting all your identity information and proof in one object - if that gets compromised in some way by the bad guys, the results are disastrous. And as IT professionals we're both well aware there will never be a system that can't be compromised *somehow* by sufficiently determined people.

Putting 'all your eggs in one basket' is always a really bad idea, it just makes the basket ever more attractive to the bad guys.