Sold advance Lumo tickets - trains cancelled, advice required please

[Leisurefirst]

Hi there,
Quite by chance after looking up the station map at Waverley on the NR website for a forthcoming journey on Sat 24th June which involves a change there with a mobility restricted relative, I have discovered (some hours later only when going back to the page) that due to engineering work at King's Cross all lines are closed that weekend and our booked 05.45 service from KGX to Edinburgh is starting from Newcastle, as is the next at 10.25.
The 12.18 is cancelled altogether.
The 15.45 & 18.27 will run from Peterborough with a replacement bus from London.
I bought two Advance Lumo tickets almost two months ago directly from them and knew nothing about this until just now, no e-mail or any other communication.
I have two lots of accommodation booked, there was no sign of this happening when I did so and am travelling with a vulnerable person.
(i am sure LNER were selling tickets too as IIRC I went with Lumo as they were much cheaper. They are not giving any info for that weekend on their website but the NR website says "two trains an hour from St. Neots, all others cancelled".)
To say I am unimpressed is an understatement.
Were they ever going to bother to let me know?
Does anybody here have an idea of when this work was announced?
Incidentally, there are no details yet on their actual website, just that tickets are not yet on sale (which is news to me since they sold me two in February.)

Planned Engineering Works & Upcoming Work | Lumo

Find out more about upcoming engineering works and affected dates so you can plan your train journey and avoid disruption when travelling with Lumo.

www.lumo.co.uk

I'm going to contact them when they reopen today but what "help" should I expect?
I suspect they will just refund me.
Avanti WC have not started selling tickets yet for that weekend but I doubt they will be cheap...
Should I expect any kind of help re being able to use LNER from St. Neots if possible or Avanti WC with my existing tickets?
(Being rebooked onto the 15.45 is not acceptable, losing a day's holiday basically).
I will book two (refundable) seats in the Lowland Sleeper now which are more expensive than what I have already paid Lumo but looks to be the safest option though it's less than ideal for my other traveller to say the least being sat in the seats for eight hours or so. (Cabins are out of my price range sadly).
I almost booked a ticket for a concert that night which I won't be able to go to (late night/early start put me off luckily) if we need to get the Sleeper - more expense narrowly avoided.
Any advice on how to handle my communication with Lumo much appreciated please.

 

[crablab]

As per NRCoT you are entitled to alternative arrangements if your booked service does not run, or a full refund if you decide not to travel.

You should contact Lumo and ask them what arrangements they intend to make for you. It may be that ticket acceptance will be in place etc.

I suggest keeping it concise, and to the point. You should certainly mention the assistance that your co-passenger may require.

Rebooking tickets is likely to confuse matters (I appreciate they are refundable and an 'insurance policy') so I would avoid mentioning them in your initial contact. It is Lumo's responsibility to make arrangements in these circumstances.

 

[yorkie]

As per NRCoT you are entitled to alternative arrangements if your booked service does not run, or a full refund if you decide not to travel.

You should contact the retailer of the tickets and ask them what arrangements they intend to make for you. It may be that ticket acceptance will be in place etc.

Just to clarify, the onus is on the operator to make the arrangements; in this case the retailer and the operator are both Lumo but I felt it worth clarifying to avoid any potential confusion (especially if someone reads this thead in a similar predicament, but having used a different retailer).
See post below:-

If the delay in arrival at your final destination was anticipated to be more than an hour, you were entitled to require the operator in question to re-route you at the earliest opportunity under Article 16 of the PRO. In other words, they would have to make arrangements (e.g. ticket acceptance) for you to be able to travel on the next available service towards your destination...

Will Lumo actually adhere to their obligations? Unfortunately the East Coast operators do not like to co-operate with each other for the overall impartial benefit of passengers, so it remains more of a hope than an expectation...

I suggest keeping it concise, and to the point. You should certainly mention the assistance that your co-passenger may require.

Agreed; I would recommend wording it quite differently to this post.

 

[crablab]

Just to clarify, the onus is on the operator to make the arrangements; in this case the retailer and the operator are both Lumo

Apologies for the confusion. I've adjusted my post to avoid any misunderstandings for future readers

 

[gray1404]

Can I suggest for an easy life you look at still getting a cheap Advance ticket out of Euston on a direct service?

Failing that getting a coach from London Victoria.

Is your return service running as booked?

 

[Leisurefirst]

Can I suggest for an easy life you look at still getting a cheap Advance ticket out of Euston on a direct service?

Failing that getting a coach from London Victoria.

Is your return service running as booked?

Hi,
You certainly can!
They're not on sale yet but as King's Cross will be closed I doubt they'll be cheap unfortunately, but I will look.
It would be nice if Lumo would arrange acceptable for us on our existing tickets though.
Have booked two refundable Sleeper seats as insurance.
Actually coming back with Avanti WC already booked from Glasgow as we are staying the night there, splitting a journey from the Highlands to avoid the Sleeper seats for 11 odd hours!

 

[gray1404]

Hi,
You certainly can!
They're not on sale yet but as King's Cross will be closed I doubt they'll be cheap unfortunately, but I will look.
It would be nice if Lumo would arrange acceptable for us on our existing tickets though.
Have booked two refundable Sleeper seats as insurance.
Actually coming back with Avanti WC already booked from Glasgow as we are staying the night there, splitting a journey from the Highlands to avoid the Sleeper seats for 11 odd hours!

There is a possibility LUMO might arrange ticket acceptance on Avanti as they have done this previously.

My concern is they will not do this until much nearer the date of travel. Would the coach be an option for the sake of a direct journey?

 

[Leisurefirst]

There is a possibility LUMO might arrange ticket acceptance on Avanti as they have done this previously.

My concern is they will not do this until much nearer the date of travel. Would the coach be an option for the sake of a direct journey?

Thanks to everybody who has replied so far.
I'll contact them today.
TBH I might stick with the Sleeper as at least we will get a full first day, which was the idea of getting the 05.45.
Was about £10 more than my Lumo tickets.
The eight hours in seats is not great but coach would be worse and Avanti not far off either for a later arrival.

 

[Paul Duck]

Just out of curiosity what ticket type did you buy at the beginning? Did the tickets come with seat reservations?
Just with you saying the sleeper tickets havent cost much more the originals sound very expensive for lumo that's all sorry.

 

[robbeech]

A valid thought although the cheapest sleeper seats are £50. Lumo advances range from £20 to £75 so I guess there is potential.

 

[Leisurefirst]

Just out of curiosity what ticket type did you buy at the beginning? Did the tickets come with seat reservations?
Just with you saying the sleeper tickets havent cost much more the originals sound very expensive for lumo that's all sorry.

The Lumo tkts were £52.60 (2 x Advance with 2TR railcard).
The Sleeper seats were £66.00 again with the railcard.

Reply from Lumo...

"Thank you for contacting Lumo Customer Relations about your upcoming journey.

At this moment we are awaiting confirmation of Network Rail engineering works on our route.

As we do not have this information from Network Rail we are unable to advise further on any journey amendments or ticket acceptance.

We will update our passengers as soon as we have confirmation and as soon as we have confirmed service details we will also be adding this information onto our website here: https://www.lumo.co.uk/plan-your-journey/planned-engineering-works

If you wish to amend your ticket before we have service information confirmed you can read how to do this here: https://www.lumo.co.uk/help/refunds-and-ticket-changes

Thanks for getting in touch."

I don't understand why all the relevant amendments and cancellations are already on the NRE site?

 

[Leisurefirst]

Update...
Got an email from Lumo yesterday morning confirming train cancelled.
There was a link to the website also confirming only two replacement road transport services from London in the afternoon. Earliest arrival after 10pm in Edinburgh. (Over 12 hours later than I booked). NRE giving an alternative in the morning at 6am from St. Pancras changing onto Cross Country at Sheffield, arriving just after Noon.
LNER to be confirmed but looks like they are running from St. Neots throughout the day, advising rail from STP to Bedford then bus to St. Neots.

No alternative acceptance offered by Lumo.
Just a refund if you don't want to arrive 12 hours late.
Thank you very much.

Emailed them.
Received this just now.

Thank you for contacting Lumo Customer Relations.

We are very sorry that your upcoming journey will be affected by engineering works.

Engineering works are taking place at London Kings Cross and as such all lines are closed.

You can read more about what services will be available on the National Rail website here https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service_disruptions/currentAndFuture.aspx?TravelDate=24/06/2023&TOC=ld

We are not able to arrange transport for you on an alternative providers service, however as your service has been affected by the engineering works you will be able to claim a fee free refund on your journey if none of the alternative journey options are suitable.

You can claim for a refund here https://www.lumo.co.uk/help/refunds-and-ticket-changes

Once again we apologise that your journey was affected.

Thanks for getting in touch.

Yours sincerely,

Awful IMHO.

 

[yorkie]

I don't think Lumo have any intention of complying with Article 16 of the PRO; I am not sure what your next steps are, as unfortunately companies like Lumo know that people are unlikely to take any of these matters to court, so they are able to get away with this sort of behaviour.

 

[miklcct]

I don't think Lumo have any intention of complying with Article 16 of the PRO; I am not sure what your next steps are, as unfortunately companies like Lumo know that people are unlikely to take any of these matters to court, so they are able to get away with this sort of behaviour.

Is it relevant here as it is a planned engineering work rather than a delay?

 

[Wolfie]

I don't think Lumo have any intention of complying with Article 16 of the PRO; I am not sure what your next steps are, as unfortunately companies like Lumo know that people are unlikely to take any of these matters to court, so they are able to get away with this sort of behaviour.

If ever a group action was merited against multiple TOCs.....

 

[Leisurefirst]

I don't think Lumo have any intention of complying with Article 16 of the PRO; I am not sure what your next steps are, as unfortunately companies like Lumo know that people are unlikely to take any of these matters to court, so they are able to get away with this sort of behaviour.

Interesting.
Thank you yorkie.
I've replied with further questions and I shall quote the PRO if/when I get the standard reply back.
I love the fact I can get a "fee free" refund. Amazingly generous!

 

[Watershed]

Update...
Got an email from Lumo yesterday morning confirming train cancelled.
There was a link to the website also confirming only two replacement road transport services from London in the afternoon. Earliesr arrival after 10pm in Edinburgh. (Over 12hours later than I booked). NRE giving an alternative in the morning at 6am from St. Pancras changing onto Cross Country ay Sheffield, arriving just after Noon.
No alternatives acceptance offered by Lumo.
Emailed them.
Received this just now.

Thank you for contacting Lumo Customer Relations.

We are very sorry that your upcoming journey will be affected by engineering works.

Engineering works are taking place at London Kings Cross and as such all lines are closed.

You can read more about what services will be available on the National Rail website here https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service_disruptions/currentAndFuture.aspx?TravelDate=24/06/2023&TOC=ld

We are not able to arrange transport for you on an alternative providers service, however as your service has been affected by the engineering works you will be able to claim a fee free refund on your journey if none of the alternative journey options are suitable.

You can claim for a refund here https://www.lumo.co.uk/help/refunds-and-ticket-changes

Once again we apologise that your journey was affected.

Thanks for getting in touch.

Yours sincerely,

Awful IMHO.

For "we are not able", read "we don't want to spend the money" - of course they're able, they just don't want to.

They are in breach of their obligations under the PRO in refusing to re-route you at the earliest opportunity, as they are required to do.

It's up to you how you proceed but I would respond with an email setting out their breach of the PRO and putting them on notice that you'll buy a new ticket with another operator, and recover the cost of this from them, if they don't remedy it within (say) 14 days.

 

[Wolfie]

For "we are not able", read "we don't want to spend the money" - of course they're able, they just don't want to.

They are in breach of their obligations under the PRO in refusing to re-route you at the earliest opportunity, as they are required to do.

It's up to you how you proceed but I would respond with an email setting out their breach of the PRO and putting them on notice that you'll buy a new ticket with another operator, and recover the cost of this from them, if they don't remedy it within (say) 14 days.

Agreed. I would add, to show that you are deadly serious, that you should request their address for service (i.e. the formal address where legal documents are served).

 

[Watershed]

Agreed. I would add, to show that you are deadly serious, that you should request their address for service (i.e. the formal address where legal documents are served).

Don't think there is much point in this; the customer service bod who'll respond to your email won't have a clue what you mean by that or that you intend it to have any sort of significance, and in any event you can just use their registered office from Companies House. The key point is that if you do have to take the matter to Court, you can demonstrate you've given them every opportunity to re-route you but they've refused to do so.

 

[Snow1964]

For "we are not able", read "we don't want to spend the money" - of course they're able, they just don't want to.

They are in breach of their obligations under the PRO in refusing to re-route you at the earliest opportunity, as they are required to do.

It's up to you how you proceed but I would respond with an email setting out their breach of the PRO and putting them on notice that you'll buy a new ticket with another operator, and recover the cost of this from them, if they don't remedy it within (say) 14 days.

I guess you could add that you reserve the right to add any small claims court fees if they choose not to remedy. But maybe others will think that is just unnecessary threatening.

Going down the small claims court route (if it gets to that) means you only need to show you have an unpaid debt, and they will need to do the defending that debt didn't arise.

 

[Leisurefirst]

Many thanks for all your advice above.
I'd already sent another email back before some of them arrived but I'll certainly bear them in mind if (when) further communication is required and I'll keep you posted.

 

[Watershed]

I guess you could add that you reserve the right to add any small claims court fees if they choose not to remedy. But maybe others will think that is just unnecessary threatening.

Going down the small claims court route (if it gets to that) means you only need to show you have an unpaid debt, and they will need to do the defending that debt didn't arise.

Court fees are recoverable by default, even in the Small Claims Track. So as with the request for address for service, I don't see there is much point in saying this. It's not like you are owed money by an individual, where sending this kind of stuff might worry them enough that they just pay up. Large companies don't work like that and in all likelihood your correspondence won't be looked at by anyone who has any idea of the legal side of things, unless and until it gets to Court.

 

[Leisurefirst]

Good morning all.
Another day fobbed off...

"Thank you for contacting Lumo Customer Relations.

Once again we apologise that your service has been affected by engineering works by Network Rail., when engineering works will take place are out of our control.

We are sorry but we cannot arrange for alternative transport for you, other than the options we have already offered.

As per the image you have sent in regarding article 16, the first point, we have advised that you can claim a full refund for the entire journey.

Once again we apologise that your planned journey has been impacted, if you wish to claim a refund please click here: https://www.lumo.co.uk/help/refunds-and-ticket-changes

Thanks again for getting in touch.

Yours sincerely,"

Of course the fact that arcticle 16 says I'm entitled to a refund OR re-routing seems to have passed them by as does my polite request for my complaint to be passed to the senior Customer Service member of staff. (Same person replying).
Really poor.

 

[Wolfie]

Good morning all.
Another day fobbed off...

"Thank you for contacting Lumo Customer Relations.

Once again we apologise that your service has been affected by engineering works by Network Rail., when engineering works will take place are out of our control.

We are sorry but we cannot arrange for alternative transport for you, other than the options we have already offered.

As per the image you have sent in regarding article 16, the first point, we have advised that you can claim a full refund for the entire journey.

Once again we apologise that your planned journey has been impacted, if you wish to claim a refund please click here: https://www.lumo.co.uk/help/refunds-and-ticket-changes

Thanks again for getting in touch.

Yours sincerely,"

Of course the fact that arcticle 16 says I'm entitled to a refund OR re-routing seems to have passed them by as does my polite request for my complaint to be passed to the senior Customer Service member of staff. (Same person replying).
Really poor.

This is the point where you just accept their position or explicitly threaten legal action.

 

[ainsworth74]

Good morning all.
Another day fobbed off...

"Thank you for contacting Lumo Customer Relations.

Once again we apologise that your service has been affected by engineering works by Network Rail., when engineering works will take place are out of our control.

We are sorry but we cannot arrange for alternative transport for you, other than the options we have already offered.

As per the image you have sent in regarding article 16, the first point, we have advised that you can claim a full refund for the entire journey.

Once again we apologise that your planned journey has been impacted, if you wish to claim a refund please click here: https://www.lumo.co.uk/help/refunds-and-ticket-changes

Thanks again for getting in touch.

Yours sincerely,"

Of course the fact that arcticle 16 says I'm entitled to a refund OR re-routing seems to have passed them by as does my polite request for my complaint to be passed to the senior Customer Service member of staff. (Same person replying).
Really poor.

Classic reading comprehension fail:

Where it is reasonably to be expected that the delay in the arrival at the final destination under the transport contract will be more than 60 minutes, the passenger shall immediately have the choice between...

The operator doesn't get to choose which option is appropriate, that decision is the passengers. To be honest I'm actually slightly surprised that they even made the attempt at engaging with the argument rather than just ignoring it.

I think the only real choice her sadly is to purchase a new ticket and then pursue Lumo for the cost including taking them to small claims court if necessary. My response would likely be to simply point out their mistaken understanding and offer them one more opportunity to correct the issue. The railway industry at large has no recognition that the PRO obligates them to provide a refund or re-routeing at the earliest opportunity where a delay is expected to be more than 60 minutes and clearly considers their responsibilities discharged by offering a refund.

 

[Taunton]

I really don't understand why the Rail Regulator does not deal with these well-publicised cases of companies not abiding by their agreements and conditions. Isn't that what Regulators are for?

 

[Haywain]

I really don't understand why the Rail Regulator does not deal with these well-publicised cases of companies not abiding by their agreements and conditions. Isn't that what Regulators are for?

It doesn't appear to be a significant part of their function. And being government funded the Regulator is probably short staffed, underfunded, overworked and constrained in what can really be done.

 

[gray1404]

I have noticed this with train companies that are part of the First Group, it can be difficult to get something escalated to somebody senior. I think this is the First Customer Contact centre over in Yorkshire if I remember rightly.

You seem to end up with the same person replying, like the case has been assigned to them, despite asking for escalation.

 

[SteveM70]

As an aside, I'm currently trying to engage with Grand Central over a similar failure to adhere to PRO 16. Unlike Lumo, their approach is to completely ignore my emails

 

[Bletchleyite]

As an aside, I'm currently trying to engage with Grand Central over a similar failure to adhere to PRO 16. Unlike Lumo, their approach is to completely ignore my emails

The fundamental issue is that "low cost" is the only model used by UK open access operations. Couldn't be more different than Italo, which offers a service that's arguably better than FS offers *and* often cheaper.

Lumo is just Ryanair on rails. You can't cut on safety, so you offer bad customer service to save the money.

(See also: why it's a bad idea to pick the cheapest energy supplier or car insurer)