Sounding the horn……??

[Trackman]

I believe that in the railway rule book of the past there was a requirement to sound the horn when approaching any station at which the train was not booked to call. Likewise whenever approaching a tunnel.

Both of these instructions are long since retired.

I thought the rule was to sound the horn approaching a station that is not booked to call at if there is another train stopped at the station. Could be wrong..

 

[CarrotPie]

Dont. I was convinced there was a bunch of Pway in a tunnel for a split second last month.

Sainsbury's bags was a new one on me, until then.

Did you say 'oh gosh'

Sounds more like new pants time than a simple "oh gosh"!

 

[12LDA28C]

The wording in the rule book is

"You must only use the horn as much as is necessary to give an effective warning or to make sure safe working takes place."

Funny how the Rule Book states that and yet a few years ago the requirement to use both tones of the horn at whistle boards was removed, which I believe has quite the opposite result on the effectiveness of the warning. Many drivers I know still use both tones of the horn at whistle boards and I would not expect them to be marked down during an assessment for doing so.

 

[chuff chuff]

Funny how the Rule Book states that and yet a few years ago the requirement to use both tones of the horn at whistle boards was removed, which I believe has quite the opposite result on the effectiveness of the warning. Many drivers I know still use both tones of the horn at whistle boards and I would not expect them to be marked down during an assessment for doing so.

Yeah noise pollution and all that,I still use both tones at whistle boards and have never been picked up on it.

 

[dk1]

Yeah noise pollution and all that,I still use both tones at whistle boards and have never been picked up on it.

Gosh!!! We’d be hung, drawn & quartered. I do notice how slack some other TOCs/FOCs are when out & about.

 

[choochoochoo]

Funny how the Rule Book states that and yet a few years ago the requirement to use both tones of the horn at whistle boards was removed, which I believe has quite the opposite result on the effectiveness of the warning. Many drivers I know still use both tones of the horn at whistle boards and I would not expect them to be marked down during an assessment for doing so.

I'll always use 2 tones. I’ve not seen any convincing evidence anywhere that one tone is less noise polluting than two. (Especially if it’s going for 3 seconds!!)

Also I’ve found usually those complaining about railway noise are those who somehow didn’t realise railways made noise when they bought/moved into the property. (Very similar to those who didn’t realise they moved under a flight path near an airport )

 

[dk1]

I'll always use 2 tones. I’ve not seen any convincing evidence anywhere that one tone is less noise polluting than two. (Especially if it’s going for 3 seconds!!)

I always use two tones for track workers etc but low tone for 3secs as advised by my companies local policy. They say jump, we say how high & all that.

 

[craigybagel]

Did he ask you to do it for three seconds?

Didn't need to - if I'm passing a red I'm already making good use of the horn. No polite short toots here!

Many drivers I know still use both tones of the horn at whistle boards and I would not expect them to be marked down during an assessment for doing so.

Gosh!!! We’d be hung, drawn & quartered. I do notice how slack some other TOCs/FOCs are when out & about.

Our local management encourage us to use both tones at whistle boards, and I nearly always do.

 

[dk1]

Our local management encourage us to use both tones at whistle boards, and I nearly always do.

That’s so strange after the RSSB wanted it changed several years ago.

 

[43066]

That's not true though, as the rule book (and the post above yours) says, it should only be used 'as much as is necessary to give an effective warning'. The reason is because overuse results in conditioning, with people on or near the line potentially not responding to a blast on the horn when they should, because they're so used to hearing it all the time for reasons that aren't a warning of a hazard. That's why blowing the horn has been removed from things like passing a signal at danger, to avoid it being overused for reasons that don't specifically relate to an immediate danger.
.

Which is entirely down to drivers’ discretion, in practice.

In my case nearly a decade of driving trains, for two different TOCs, blowing the horn whenever I feel like it, suggests my earlier statement is true. No sensible manager is ever going to criticise drivers for over using the horn, or ask them to use it less!

 

[12LDA28C]

That’s so strange after the RSSB wanted it changed several years ago.

Why? Both tones of the horn gives a better warning of the approach of a train and differentiates the sound from car horns where there is road traffic in the vicinity. I recall that when the Rule change came into force, ASLEF issued a notice instructing drivers to continue to use both tones of the horn for that very reason.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jan 2024 ==

Gosh!!! We’d be hung, drawn & quartered. I do notice how slack some other TOCs/FOCs are when out & about.

'Slack' would be not sounding the horn at all. Using both tones is safer, in the opinion of many drivers and certainly their union.

 

[chuff chuff]

Why? Both tones of the horn gives a better warning of the approach of a train and differentiates the sound from car horns where there is road traffic in the vicinity. I recall that when the Rule change came into force, ASLEF issued a notice instructing drivers to continue to use both tones of the horn for that very reason.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jan 2024 ==

That's why I do it,did single tone for a while but went back to two.Most others I hear just do the one.

 

[dk1]

'Slack' would be not sounding the horn at all. Using both tones is safer, in the opinion of many drivers and certainly their union.

I agree & prefer two tones but they say jump, we say how high lol.

 

[43066]

Why? Both tones of the horn gives a better warning of the approach of a train and differentiates the sound from car horns where there is road traffic in the vicinity. I recall that when the Rule change came into force, ASLEF issued a notice instructing drivers to continue to use both tones of the horn for that very reason.

A fair point. I might start using two tones for whistle boards. Our low tones have a habit of sticking on, so hitherto I’ve often used high tone only!

 

[choochoochoo]

A fair point. I might start using two tones for whistle boards. Our low tones have a habit of sticking on, so hitherto I’ve often used high tone only!

Also ask most people what a train horn sounds like and you'll likely get a two-tone response

 

[CarrotPie]

Also ask most people what a train horn sounds like and you'll likely get a two-tone response

Exactly, and it makes people more aware of it than if it were a "droning" single-tone blarp (technical term).

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Many years ago, I travelled from Winchester to London on a semi-fast service worked by a SWT 4-CEP unit. On the non-stop run from Basingstoke to Woking, the driver sounded the horn on the approach to each of the intermediate stations (Hook, Winchfield, etc). I never understood why, as we were on the up fast line which does not run adjacent to any platforms on this stretch. It seems unlikely there were p-way staff on the line at each of the five stations, and I certainly didn't see any from the train (although they could have been on the opposite side).

Maybe he was on a "last jolly" before the class was withdrawn...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Jan 2024 ==

One worry I do have is that this may shock the person close to the edge / make them jump, and they may accidentally lose their balance and topple over.

Before the pandemic, I was part of a multi-disciplined team treating a former railway shunter/depot driver who suffered PTSD following the sounding of a train horn whilst on duty

I expect the rules/standards have now changed

 

[Deepgreen]

We can sound the horn whenever we deem it needed 24hrs a day.

At whistle boards however as stated above it’s only between the hours of 06:00-23:59 when it should be sounded for 3 seconds (1 second before 2 seconds after) as per the rule book.

At my TOC the only added restriction is that it cannot be used in the shed area at maintenance depots.

Before and after what?

 

[75A]

The whistle board.

 

[6Gman]

While locking up last night I was delighted to hear someone playing "On Ilkley Moor bah'tat" on his horn.

After 2300, and I doubt it's in the rule book.

But it made me smile!

 

[craigybagel]

The whole insistence on it being exactly at the whistle board is another thing I find a bit strange. Of course I do follow that rule as much as possible (we do have a number of whistle boards located at the same point as permanent AWS magnets and you can easily run out of hands!) but what if you're going more slowly than linespeed? We have one just after a bridge with a MU90/40 speed restriction - so depending on the traction on two consecutive days I can be doing twice the speed at the same board!

 

[dk1]

Before and after what?

Whistle boards. Thought I made that quite clear

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jan 2024 ==

The whistle board.

Thank you lol

 

[ComUtoR]

Before and after what?

The whistle board.

The whole insistence on it being exactly at the whistle board is another thing I find a bit strange. Of course I do follow that rule as much as possible (we do have a number of whistle boards located at the same point as permanent AWS magnets and you can easily run out of hands!) but what if you're going more slowly? We have one just after a bridge with a MU90/40 speed restriction - so depending on the traction on two consecutive days I can be doing twice the speed at the same board!

The whole 'tones at whistle boards' instruction turned into a very political quagmire. Chuck in NIMBY's, Environmental activism, and ASLEF's political diatribe and in all honesty it got "messy" (yes, double inverted commas)

Noise pollution stepped in and we changed how to sound the horn, politics stepped in and we changed again, and some will sound for X+Y seconds. Some will also sound both tones, based on unit, based on policy, based on preference, based on politics. The Rulebook is quite clear when you are required to sound your horn.

@craigybagel the rulebook doesn't specify speeds at the whistle board but the 'at the board' bit is based on 'the science'. When we sounded early, it MAY have been the case where someone didn't receive the warning in time or didn't get the warning because they simply didn't hear it. I have read too many RAIB reports to discount the minutiae. They go into to find the 'facts' of each specific case. There is a lot of research on Spark regarding why and what we do. TBVFH. 'It's above my pay grade' and I've learned to suck it up and trust in those that know the details.

But yeah.. Isn't it weird that I sound my horn 'randomly' for 'PWay' or because I thought I saw something....


Com.

 

[craigybagel]

@craigybagel the rulebook doesn't specify speeds at the whistle board but the 'at the board' bit is based on 'the science'. When we sounded early, it MAY have been the case where someone didn't receive the warning in time or didn't get the warning because they simply didn't hear it. I have read too many RAIB reports to discount the minutiae. They go into to find the 'facts' of each specific case. There is a lot of research on Spark regarding why and what we do. TBVFH. 'It's above my pay grade' and I've learned to suck it up and trust in those that know the details.

If it's purely based on distance then fair enough I guess, it just seems odd given the duration from sounding the horn to arriving at the crossing can very do dramatically based on how fast I'm going.

But I do agree with trusting the science, and I'm paid to be professional and do my job anyway - it just seems a little odd.

 

[trebor79]

I think @dk1 has previously mentioned his driving policy is very prescriptive regarding whistle boards.

Most certainly is. I am picked up on downloads for only doing it for 2.7secs for example as has most of the establishment at my depot at one time or other.

I guess maybe there are a lot more crossings in the GA patch and someone has identified it as high hazard on a risk assessment.

 

[ComUtoR]

If it's purely based on distance then fair enough I guess,

The distance the W board is placed is based on the time and distance it would take someone on the crossing to hear the horn.

it just seems odd given the duration from sounding the horn to arriving at the crossing can very do dramatically based on how fast I'm going.

Very much an oversight on the science. A lot of rules do not stack up to scrutiny. However, they are generally based on the most common denominator.

But I do agree with trusting the science, and I'm paid to be professional and do my job anyway - it just seems a little odd.

20yrs. I've learned to suck it up and move on.

Years ago I was asked to investigate a PWay incident where a Driver knocked a member of PWay carrying a huge spanner. It all come down to if the horn was sounded or not and if the horn was sounded correctly. We could exonerate the Driver if all procedures and rules were followed. Any deviation and the Driver was Fuggered :/

Not a great world to live in but a lesson I learned the very hard way.

 

[craigybagel]

Not a great world to live in but a lesson I learned the very hard way.

Wise words

 

[Deepgreen]

This thread gives yet another example of today's fractured railway - almost every depot and route seems to have a different regime for horn use! I'm on the North Downs line and 'W' boards are met with a single tone at the board - nothing about one tone before and a second after the board (I've never heard of this before in 38 years on the railway). Of course, two tones are the blindingly (deafeningly?) obvious sensible choice for this - originally chosen for the very good reason that it is unmistakable for any other warning horns, etc. Anyway, that argument has been thoroughly rehearsed before.

 

[dk1]

This thread gives yet another example of today's fractured railway - almost every depot and route seems to have a different regime for horn use! I'm on the North Downs line and 'W' boards are met with a single tone at the board - nothing about one tone before and a second after the board (I've never heard of this before in 38 years on the railway). Of course, two tones are the blindingly (deafeningly?) obvious sensible choice for this - originally chosen for the very good reason that it is unmistakable for any other warning horns, etc. Anyway, that argument has been thoroughly rehearsed before.

I don’t know if I caused any confusion. We are all LOW tone 1 second before, 2 seconds after the W board.

 

[Rich1974]

All I can say is make sure you give a nice solid blast on the horn, some traction downloads (black box) won't register the use of the horn if it's been sounded quietly and short and if you hit someone you could end up being charged for manslaughter and going to jail.