Pete_uk
Established Member
Class 166s will see 2+2 seating except where the coolant tank is which has to stay
How would a coolant tank prevent 2+3 seating being removed?
Class 166s will see 2+2 seating except where the coolant tank is which has to stay
How would a coolant tank prevent 2+3 seating being removed?
Because it’s in the passenger space underneath the seats. It’s going to stick out if you don’t have the seats there, so you might as well keep the seats and use the space.
How would a coolant tank prevent 2+3 seating being removed?
How would a coolant tank prevent 2+3 seating being removed?
A single Citylink set has a capacity of 386 which means that they will operate with a capacity of 772 when merged.
Your way off there -The Transport for Wales slide show at the launch gave the following -
Each Stadler LRV vehicle has 257 max capacity with 129 seats.
It appears uxm mistakenly added those two figures to get a figure of 386.
View attachment 55361
The capacity is listed above and has been sourced from this document: https://tfw.gov.wales/sites/default/files/inline-files/Detailed Briefing.pdf
They will be coupled as 6 cars which are 80 metres long and on off-peak times they will remain as 3 car metro vehicles.
As for the Class 315s, they were too be used until new stock arrives and were not intended to stay for a long period of time. These would not have voided the tram-trains as they have been a requirement for the Rhondda and Merthyr lines since electrification was proposed. Class 319s converted to 769s are being taken on instead of 315s as a stop-gap and will run on the Rhymney line.
As for the Class 315s, they were too be used until new stock arrives and were not intended to stay for a long period of time. These would not have voided the tram-trains as they have been a requirement for the Rhondda and Merthyr lines since electrification was proposed. Class 319s converted to 769s are being taken on instead of 315s as a stop-gap and will run on the Rhymney line.
Whats your source for this as your understanding of why Wales are getting 769 Flex's is severely out of kilter with the truth?
The 769 Flex's were most certainly not procured to be used as a stopgap instead of 315's!
I'm sure others will wade in with much venom at this attempt to re write history!
Also, if the tram-train system means that more services from RCT will head to Cardiff Bay rather than Central, that is completely ignoring the fact that so many new offices are opening up around Queen Street and Central. What then? People having to change and cross platforms at Queen Street to get to Central? Thanks a bunch!
I'll wade in, but hopefully without venom.I'm sure others will wade in with much venom at this attempt to re write history!
This is correct. Lower the price of electrification down to an acceptable level by using secon-hand stock, and when passenger numbers increase due to the "sparks effect", the business case for new stock is much easier to make. (230s for the Borderlands is a similar strategy.)As for the Class 315s, they were too be used until new stock arrives and were not intended to stay for a long period of time.
Here's where you've made a leap too far. Tram-trains are part of the Metro vision the Welsh Government have worked on since 2015, but prior to that (and the arguments over who'd be funding it) it was very much a heavy-rail project, as far back as 2012.These would not have voided the tram-trains as they have been a requirement for the Rhondda and Merthyr lines since electrification was proposed.
Technically correct, but the 315s were already out of the frame once the new Metro approach had been decided. And the 769s were originally ordered to cover PRM mods from 2018 onwards as opposed to operate the newly electrified Rhymney line (which would have been the purpose of the 315s).Class 319s converted to 769s are being taken on instead of 315s as a stop-gap and will run on the Rhymney line.
Exactly, that's why that part of the train will keep it's 2+3 seating but all the other seating will be 2+2.
And for most users of the network, they want to get on a train at a time that works for them i.e. allows them to get to work at a certain time or make their connection at Cardiff Central. They are not going to hang around hoping the next tram has some space on it.
Also, if the tram-train system means that more services from RCT will head to Cardiff Bay rather than Central, that is completely ignoring the fact that so many new offices are opening up around Queen Street and Central. What then? People having to change and cross platforms at Queen Street to get to Central? Thanks a bunch!
I would much rather they use 4 car EMU's for the Valley lines and if need be convert the Queen Street to Cardiff bay branch line into a tram-train line into the bay.
That's exactly what's going to happen, so anyone from the Valleys wanting to go direct to Central won't be getting any increase per hour of services. The initial result may be the direct Cardiff Central services being quite overcrowded and the Bay services running under capacity.
So under the proposals, there will be as many services down from RCT to Central as today. In addition there will the same number again going as far as Cathays and Queen St and then onto the Bay. So no reduction in frequency for those that want Central, and a doubling of frequency for those going to Queen St and Cathays (and from there it will be a short hop to Central as well). The doubling of frequency down the Taff Vale will also mean much less overcrowding on services, and make it much more likely that times will be convenient for getting to/from work will minimal waiting time.
That will be a massive improvement on today's service, with brand new rolling stock too. 12 tph down from Pontypridd compared with 6 now, and as little as 2tph 40 years ago for those of us with long memories. The carping of some on this forum sounds like children on being told they are flying to Disneyland for a two week holiday complaining that they would "much rather" have flown business class and it be a three week holiday. Well yes, that would be very nice, but money isn't unlimited, and what you're getting is pretty damn good.
Suffice to say Tram-Trains or Train-Trams are not the answer for the valley lines network. If they are talking about a Cardiff wide service e.g. St Mellons and other areas that don't already have fast public transport links to the central hub then I'm all for that.
The proposal seems to be based on a vanity project of their being a tram stop closer to the Senedd. I find it highly unlikely that there will be extensions for street running at the heads of the valleys.
And for most users of the network, they want to get on a train at a time that works for them i.e. allows them to get to work at a certain time or make their connection at Cardiff Central. They are not going to hang around hoping the next tram has some space on it.
Also, if the tram-train system means that more services from RCT will head to Cardiff Bay rather than Central, that is completely ignoring the fact that so many new offices are opening up around Queen Street and Central. What then? People having to change and cross platforms at Queen Street to get to Central? Thanks a bunch!
I would much rather they use 4 car EMU's for the Valley lines and if need be convert the Queen Street to Cardiff bay branch line into a tram-train line into the bay.
I heavily agree with you, It's a massive improvement, this article shows why 'light rail' was needed: https://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/business-opinion/south-wales-metro-needs-based-9774875 Also, don't be under the impression 'light' rail means light trains, Trams are actually quite heavy and it's based on shorter individual carriage lengths and a bogie configuration designed for articulation for street running.So under the proposals, there will be as many services down from RCT to Central as today. In addition there will the same number again going as far as Cathays and Queen St and then onto the Bay. So no reduction in frequency for those that want Central, and a doubling of frequency for those going to Queen St and Cathays (and from there it will be a short hop to Central as well). The doubling of frequency down the Taff Vale will also mean much less overcrowding on services, and make it much more likely that times will be convenient for getting to/from work will minimal waiting time.
That will be a massive improvement on today's service, with brand new rolling stock too. 12 tph down from Pontypridd compared with 6 now, and as little as 2tph 40 years ago for those of us with long memories. The carping of some on this forum sounds like children on being told they are flying to Disneyland for a two week holiday complaining that they would "much rather" have flown business class and it be a three week holiday. Well yes, that would be very nice, but money isn't unlimited, and what you're getting is pretty damn good.
The Rhymney Line is already going to be using 4 car and 3 car Stadler FLIRT Tri-Modes whilst they have opted for tram-trains of the former Taff Vale Railway lines. It's stated in the presentation that the new service"Maintains all existing connections to Queen Street and Central"Source: https://tfw.gov.wales/sites/default/files/inline-files/Detailed Briefing.pdf
I'll wade in, but hopefully without venom.
This is correct. Lower the price of electrification down to an acceptable level by using secon-hand stock, and when passenger numbers increase due to the "sparks effect", the business case for new stock is much easier to make. (230s for the Borderlands is a similar strategy.)
Here's where you've made a leap too far. Tram-trains are part of the Metro vision the Welsh Government have worked on since 2015, but prior to that (and the arguments over who'd be funding it) it was very much a heavy-rail project, as far back as 2012.
As a new member of the forum, you probably won't be aware of the discussions had at the time. You can have a look on these two threads to get an idea of what was talked about and expected back then.
I won’t be built in either of those places, because the WAG and Celtic Manor got together and are building it in Newport.I note a desire by Cardiff Council build a conference centre in the Bay. I contend that a better site for this would be the vacant land on the south side of Callaghan Square
The RCT lines are more of a network; the light rail network will consist of 5 lines: The Merthyr line (including the Aberdare branch line), Rhonddha line, City line and the Butetown branch lime to create a much more effective metro system that will be a lot more integrated with the use of light rail with much higher frequencies rather than longer trains.So why not go for 4 car FLIRT's for the RCT lines using the existing timetable and just use a tram-train shuttle from Queen Street's bay platform to The Flourish, as well as focusing efforts on expanding a tram network to cover the parts of East and West Cardiff that don't currently have a train service?
I really can't stress enough the flaw in using short trams and increasing the frequency to compensate.
That assumption is that passengers are indifferent about when they travel (as the cost of the ticket is identical irrespective of time of travel) and passengers will just spread themselves out over the additional trams, reaching a new equilibrium.
Any sensible modelling would show that passengers have "revealed preferences" in that they have specific times when they want to travel, largely dictated by what time they have to be in work/at college/make a connection at Central.
Also those trams will not have toilets. We all know what will start happening late on a Friday and Sat night and after a big event at the Principality stadium. I hope TFW have factored in regular deep cleaning costs into their models.
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/masterplan-revealed-new-15000-capacity-15392858I won’t be built in either of those places, because the WAG and Celtic Manor got together and are building it in Newport.
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/masterplan-revealed-new-15000-capacity-15392858
It was confirmed last Sunday that the site of the current Red Dragon entertainment complex has been chosen for the new venue. It was all over Welsh news that day.
I know we live in the era of 'fake news' but this thread is starting to get silly.......
The RCT lines are more of a network;
I am optimistic that the Welsh government have thought this through and have offered the best solution
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/business-news/you-need-know-800m-worth-15034625"Rhymney Line trains will switch to battery power north of Ystrad Mynach." " The tri-modes, which will not be able to run on-street, are expected to have a battery charge range of around 40 miles.".
What have GWR Turbos got to do with the South Wales Metro ?
Whilst I am pleased to see the new Hitachi Inter City Express Trains enter service, I note that trains to be used on the Cardiff > Bristol > Bath > Salisbury > Southampton > Portsmouth route will see a downgrade from 158’s to old Thames Turbo commuter trains (165/6’s). Whilst these will offer more seats (jammed in as 5 across) and become 5 coach trains, they are hardly the wonderful trains that one would expect to link these major cities and induce traffic off the roads.
Likewise, Cross Country will no doubt continue to use inadequate 2 or 3 coach 170’s on the Cardiff > Newport > Gloucester > Birmingham > Nottingham route. These will be even more overcrowded (& slower) once the new Worcester Parkway station opens.( At one time, south Wales had direct Inter City Trains that continued to the north-east).
Is it going to be 2+2 in the manner of the middle coach of Merseyrail 507s pre-refurb or the Thameslink Cityflyer 319s, i.e. just removing the third seat but keeping the existing ones the same? Or new seats?