South Western Railway nationalisation time.

[stadler]

Forgive me for asking a question that may already have been asked and answered but does that mean in years to come trains will have a generic colour and style across the UK?

Nobody seems to know. I do not think that has been fully decided yet. But i have seen a lot of suggestion that they will just keep the current liveries and names of all the TOCs and "Great British Railways" will just be an overall company managing the individual brands. So it may end up just continuing as a bunch of seperately operated TOCs with different liveries and different names but nationalised and operated under the "Great British Railways" parent company.

 

[fgwrich]

The small irony of Heidi Alexander talking about “The Public want trains that work” whilst standing in front of a 701… most of which are spread around the country in storage…

 

[ollyexe2808]

Nobody seems to know. I do not think that has been fully decided yet. But i have seen a lot of suggestion that they will just keep the current liveries and names of all the TOCs and "Great British Railways" will just be an overall company managing the individual brands. So it may end up just continuing as a bunch of seperately operated TOCs with different liveries and different names but nationalised and operated under the "Great British Railways" parent company.

I believe that the aim (from the consultation document released in February) is that all trains will be GBR branded services with the TOCs gradually disappearing as the higher standards of GBR are met. So whilst for now there is continuation of TOCs (because GBR is still not a legal entity), the impression I got was that this is purely a holding pattern. Things like the single ticketing platform also give evidence to this - the TOC platforms will become redundant if there is one overarching provider.

 

[BayPaul]

It looks like 455 716 and 455 853 are booked to work the first nationalised service (05:36 Woking to Surbiton 05:59) this morning.

So the first GBR train is a BR era train! I love it.

South West Railway really did spectacularly bad at failing to achieve anything. 8 years running the franchise, and they've basically failed to introduce their flagship fleet, and also ordered and cancelled two major refurb programs... I don't think they'll be missed.

 

[Kite159]

So the first GBR train is a BR era train! I love it.

South West Railway really did spectacularly bad at failing to achieve anything. 8 years running the franchise, and they've basically failed to introduce their flagship fleet, and also ordered and cancelled two major refurb programs... I don't think they'll be missed.

Until the DfT operator start messing around with replacing the cheaper evening/Sundays out tickets with booked train only advance tickets before increasing prices on weekends of engineering works or large sporting events at Twickenham/Wimbledon etc.

After all passengers want simpler fares

 

[PLY2AYS]

None of the TOCs now carry the name of the owning group.

Avanti?

 

[norbitonflyer]

It looks like 455 716 and 455 853 are booked to work the first nationalised service (05:36 Woking to Surbiton 05:59) this morning.

I pity they couldn't use the pair that operated the first Stagecoach service back in 1996 - 5709 was one unit, anyone know the other?

 

[Western Sunset]

Not sure if it was worth the effort to record this reversing at Branksome last night, on its run up to Waterloo...

 

[Goldfish62]

I believe that the aim (from the consultation document released in February) is that all trains will be GBR branded services with the TOCs gradually disappearing as the higher standards of GBR are met. So whilst for now there is continuation of TOCs (because GBR is still not a legal entity), the impression I got was that this is purely a holding pattern. Things like the single ticketing platform also give evidence to this - the TOC platforms will become redundant if there is one overarching provider.

Yes, it's not exactly a secret. The consultation document stated it, both Alexander and Hendy have stated it on a number of occasions.

I would ask those who think that all the existing TOCs are going to remain how they think complete vertical integration of track and train including the abolition of Network Rail is going to take place. The TOCs only came about as a result of separation of track and train as a prelude to privatisation. If you were starting from scratch with a vertically integrated railway, as effectively GBR will be, you would never consider having such a multitude of TOCs, many of which are misaligned with the NR regions as now.

The only way I can see the current TOCs remaining is if the process is delayed and a change of government puts a halt to everything and decides to re-privatise.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Avanti?

Not the owning group, which is a consortium of First and Trenitalia

 

[Goldfish62]

So the first GBR train is a BR era train! I love it.

South West Railway really did spectacularly bad at failing to achieve anything. 8 years running the franchise, and they've basically failed to introduce their flagship fleet, and also ordered and cancelled two major refurb programs... I don't think they'll be missed.

Their project management has been utterly appalling. Just about everything they committed to has either not been done, been unfinished, not done properly or been late. Even the comparatively straightforward Desiro refurb ran late and has never been properly completed.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Forgive me for asking a question that may already have been asked and answered but does that mean in years to come trains will have a generic colour and style across the UK?

They rarely have in the past. Even in the BR era, multiple units were green, corridor coaching stock was "blood and custard" (or regional variations) and non-corridor stock maroon. Later all coaching stock was maroon, and later still we went to allover blue for most MUs and blue/grey for LHCS, before everything went blue/grey. Then we got into sectorisation with Swallow, Toothpaste and the rest.

(and there were exceptions - the GWR railcars were maroon at one time, as were the AM9s, and the blue to blue/grey transition went in stages - the Transpennine, Inter City and Cross Country DMUs, and SR express EMUs (CEP, CIG, VEP, REP) went blue/grey abiuyt ten years before otherb multiple units.)

 

[D3WY]

Nobody seems to know. I do not think that has been fully decided yet. But i have seen a lot of suggestion that they will just keep the current liveries and names of all the TOCs and "Great British Railways" will just be an overall company managing the individual brands. So it may end up just continuing as a bunch of seperately operated TOCs with different liveries and different names but nationalised and operated under the "Great British Railways" parent company.

I personally think that's what will happen, I feel there is too much work and too much "debt"/"overheads" for the GOV to take over everything. Just taking over the maintenance of every train and taking up the lease payments of stock would be too costly. I think as you say at ground level all will stay the same with MAYBE training taking place at one location at a national training center. Other than that I think they will plonk a management structure on the top and let the TOCS run themselves day to day but authorise the big decisions like stock replacement etc

I expect they will want to modernise certain tocs so may freshen up the branding of some TOCs at most

 

[PLY2AYS]

Not the owning group, which is a consortium of First and Trenitalia

Thanks for clarifying, I knew they were Trenitalia and First, but wasn’t sure where the Avanti came from!

 

[BayPaul]

They rarely have in the past. Even in the BR era, multiple units were green, corridor coaching stock was "blood and custard" (or regional variations) and non-corridor stock maroon. Later all coaching stock was maroon, and later still we went to allover blue for most MUs and blue/grey for LHCS, before everything went blue/grey. Then we got into sectorisation with Swallow, Toothpaste and the rest.

(and there were exceptions - the GWR railcars were maroon at one time, as were the AM9s, and the blue to blue/grey transition went in stages - the Transpennine, Inter City and Cross Country DMUs, and SR express EMUs (CEP, CIG, VEP, REP) went blue/grey abiuyt ten years before otherb multiple units.)

I think we can reasonably assume that before every unit is in whatever new scheme or schemes are introduced, they will already be outdated and they'll introduce another new livery!

 

[43066]

Yes, it's not exactly a secret. The consultation document stated it, both Alexander and Hendy have stated it on a number of occasions.

I would ask those who think that all the existing TOCs are going to remain how they think complete vertical integration of track and train including the abolition of Network Rail is going to take place. The TOCs only came about as a result of separation of track and train as a prelude to privatisation. If you were starting from scratch with a vertically integrated railway, as effectively GBR will be, you would never consider having such a multitude of TOCs, many of which are misaligned with the NR regions as now.

The only way I can see the current TOCs remaining is if the process is delayed and a change of government puts a halt to everything and decides to re-privatise.

The TOCs won’t remain. It isn’t totally clear that the differential branding won’t - surely it’s more likely that it will remain for at least the medium term. It’ll be an expensive exercise to rebrand the entire fleet of trains and all stations etc. Arguably also not a particularly good use of resources.

 

[Lewisham2221]

MAYBE training taking place at one location at a national training center.

Absolutely not. That would be dreadfully inefficient, costly and all round rubbish.

 

[ShadowKnight]

In practice, other than legal/contract changes what has actually changed?

Have any senior management or other practical things have changed?
If not when should such changes happen?

 

[Jantra]

I believe that the aim (from the consultation document released in February) is that all trains will be GBR branded services with the TOCs gradually disappearing as the higher standards of GBR are met. So whilst for now there is continuation of TOCs (because GBR is still not a legal entity), the impression I got was that this is purely a holding pattern. Things like the single ticketing platform also give evidence to this - the TOC platforms will become redundant if there is one overarching provider.

I bet ScotRail and TfW won't be happy with that. Both make a point of having distinctive colour branding based on their own national flag, not the UK flag.

 

[BayPaul]

I bet ScotRail and TfW won't be happy with that. Both make a point of having distinctive colour branding based on their own national flag, not the UK flag.

I'm pretty sure that Scotrail, TfW, Merseyrail and TfL services aren't part of the new brand, so not a problem!

 

[swt_passenger]

I bet ScotRail and TfW won't be happy with that. Both make a point of having distinctive colour branding based on their own national flag, not the UK flag.

I reckon many formal announcements so far have made it clear devolved areas are not included in any branding policy. Yet people still keep asking the same question every few months...

 

[The Middle]

I find this an interesting quote. Only get GBR branding once performance standards have been met.

Image shows text from Prime Minister X account:

"South Western Railway is now owned by you
And this is just the start.

To be part of Great British Railways, rail services will first have to meet tough performance standards.

That means better services, with simpler ticketing, on more comfortable trains."

 

[stadler]

I find this an interesting quote. Only get GBR branding once performance standards have been met.

Image shows text from Prime Minister X account:

I bet that "simpler ticketing" probably means getting rid of Return tickets and making you buy two Single tickets and getting rid of Off Peak / Super Off Peak / Evening Out / Sunday Out tickets. So in other words making tickets more expensive. I would not be surprised if SWR or other nationalised TOCs are next to follow that awful LNER fare trial rubbish.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Have any senior management or other practical things have changed?
If not when should such changes happen?

The new MD of DfT's SWR is Lawrence Bowman, lately of Network Rail (system operator and Anglia director roles, among others).
He takes over from Stuart Meek of First/MTR (formerly with Govia/LU).

 

[Thisisajm]

I bet that "simpler ticketing" probably means getting rid of Return tickets and making you buy two Single tickets and getting rid of Off Peak / Super Off Peak / Evening Out / Sunday Out tickets. So in other words making tickets more expensive.

I've regularly used "Evening out return" for just that, meeting up with people for drinks. I'd be disappointed to see it go.

 

[swt_passenger]

I find this an interesting quote. Only get GBR branding once performance standards have been met.

So if they don’t meet performance standards, they’ll just remain unbranded? That‘s not really much of an incentive is it?

 

[Leyland Bus]

So if they don’t meet performance standards, they’ll just remain unbranded? That‘s not really much of an incentive is it?

I highly doubt the branding is an incentive, more that if you're not pulling your weight it'll stand out more and you'll be in the spotlight to have to get your act together. That's how I see it...

Also, I'd like to echo the post above, TOCs will be a thing of the past. Infact, if you read the various documents on the Govt website it tell you the exact time lines and how things will move. Change will come gradually, especially as more and more TOCs are nationalised.

Imagine this site if it we're about in 1948!

 

[lookapigeon]

In practice, other than legal/contract changes what has actually changed?

Have any senior management or other practical things have changed?
If not when should such changes happen?

An office, somewhere in the SWR, someone is typing in Word:
Ctrl+H "FIRST MTR SOUTH WESTERN TRAINS LIMITED"
Paste "SOUTH WESTERN RAILWAY LIMITED"



Joking aside, I hope that branding is the very last thing on the agenda. There's only so much lipstick you can put on a pig when you have a fleet of clapped out, uncomfortable trains which have no modern facilities on.
Passengers don't care for pretty logos and branding when the train they're on is a sardine tin on wheels.

 

[ChristopherJ]

Now the franchise has been taken into government ownership under Starmer's (allegedly) leftist economic ideology, somebody should scribble out South Western Railway and replace it with...

...Socialist Workers Railway (SWR).

 

[Cymroglan]

Are we expecting a new website to replace the current SWR one? If so, would it be a direct replacement for the SWR one or a National one do we know?