Southeastern - Advice please

[Wazza]

Hi all and HNY,

I am after some reassurance and guidance please if possible.

2 weeks ago I was travelling from Ashford to St Pancras in a rush with no ticket and tried my luck getting through the barrier at STP but there was a revenue officer the other side. Naturally I was caught and had to give my details and undergo questioning. That's fair enough and I'm in the wrong 100%. To date, I have still not received a letter following the incident - is this normal? I have always bought a ticket having previously had a Zones 1-6 travelcard annual season ticket for 2 years. I no longer work in London and this is my first offence with Southeastern. I have never previously had a penalty fare in my life for train travel besides 1 other occasion as I will detail below.

Previously, in September 2017, I had a misunderstanding with Greater Anglia when using the Stansted Express and this was amicably resolved with a fine of roughly £30. I had assumed that the SE was part of my annual ticket and in Zones 1-6 but that was easily resolved with paying the fine. Would my recent incident with Greater Anglia also influence any action Southeastern now take?

I am very anxious about closing the matter as I accept I need to pay a fine but I find it odd that nearly 3 weeks have passed and I've not heard anything?

Your help and guidance is appreciated, thank you.

 

[mikeg]

Southeastern would not know about your greater anglia incident. Pedant mode: it wasn't a fine but rather an out of court settlement or possibly a penalty fare and other than being on greater anglia s naughty list there will be no record.
It is quite normal not to have heard back yet, there will be a lot of prosecutions staff of and a backlog of festive fare dodgers to deal with. My advice is to sit tight and wait for the dreaded letter, but try not to let it worry yo too much for now. When you do get the letter, come back here for further advice.

 

[island]

When you say you “tried your luck getting through the barrier”, can you clarify what you mean by that?

 

[Wazza]

Thanks mike

 

[gray1404]

Okay so how did the conversation go between you and the ticket inspector?

 

[Wazza]

He asked why I didn't have a ticket, where I travelled from and whether I had means to pay for a ticket. All of which I answered truthfully. He then made me sign his book with his questions asked and the answers that I gave.

He was very polite - as was I - and it was all very relaxed.

This is the first time I've ever had a penalty fare so im very anxious about it all and what I should say to Southeastern and also what my punishment will be.

 

[6Gman]

He asked why I didn't have a ticket, where I travelled from and whether I had means to pay for a ticket. All of which I answered truthfully. He then made me sign his book with his questions asked and the answers that I gave.

He was very polite - as was I - and it was all very relaxed.

This is the first time I've ever had a penalty fare so im very anxious about it all and what I should say to Southeastern and also what my punishment will be.

Sorry, I misread your original post. I thought you were travelling from St Pancras and had tried to board without a ticket (presumably intending to pay at the other end).

I now realise you were travelling into St Pancras (from Ashford) without a ticket, and went through the barriers (not sure how you did this?).

Don't understand your comment of "this is the first time I've ever had a penalty fare" - what makes you think a penalty fare is a likely outcome?

By getting onto the train at Ashford (which I assume has both booking office and ticket machines?) you had already committed an offence of travelling without a ticket. By passing through the barrier rather than approaching a member of staff to ask for a ticket you will almost certainly be regarded as showing intent to avoid paying, which is a more serious offence.

All you can do is wait for the letter from SE Trains and then come back on here with the details of the allegation they make and the legal provision they intend to use. Appropriate advice can then be offered, but it could cost you a lot more than a penalty fare.

 

[Wazza]

That's correct.

The lady on the barrier at Ashford let me through as she knew I was rushing to get my train and was very kind to do so.

I am aware it may cost a lot and that doesn't concern me - what does concern me is any jail time given this is my first offence?

 

[6Gman]

That's correct.

The lady on the barrier at Ashford let me through as she knew I was rushing to get my train and was very kind to do so.

I am aware it may cost a lot and that doesn't concern me - what does concern me is any jail time given this is my first offence?

You won't go to jail.

By letting you through the barrier the lady at Ashford actually protected you from the lesser offence. Your action at St Pancras put you back in a mess, but I think you realise that.

Wait for the letter.

 

[gray1404]

Did the ticket inspector say that he was issuing you with a penalty fare and give you a slip of paper with instructions on how to pay it or did he say that you needed to wait for a letter in the post?

If the former then that would be a penalty fare but if the latter (which it sounds like it is) then you have not been issued with a penalty fare and need to wait for a letter in the post.

The train company would have to start any court proceedings within 6 months from the date of the offence so this gives an indication of how long they could take to contact you.

When they write to you it will most likely be to ask for your side of the story. At this point post a copy of the letter here so we can see exactly what they are saying. Do edit out your name and address and any personal information or reference numbers.

We can help you draft a reply. In your reply, which can be short, you simply need to apologise, understand the seriousness of not travelling without a ticket and assure them it won't happen again. You should then offer to pay the outstanding fare and costs incurred by the company. Hopefully they will offer an out of court settlement.

It is advisable that you post a draft copy of your reply here so we can check it for any errors before sending - particularly as I see you have used some railway ticketing jargon incorrectly - we don't want you to say the wrong thing.

It is important that you respond quickly to this letter as often they do not give long to reply, especially when postal time is factored in.

You are very lucky to have been stopped by a different train company this time. You really do need to make sure that you are not stopped again for any ticketing issues. Always have a ticket and make sure its valid.

 

[gray1404]

Did you ask the lady at the barrier if you could pay on board/at your destination? How did she respond?

Or did she simply let you through?

I'm assuming you told the inspector how you managed to get on the train without a ticket?

 

[Wazza]

Yes I asked if the lady if I could be let through as I was in a rush. I was honest with the inspector at St Pancras and his repoŕt that I was made to sign said that I had admitted to not buying a ticket on my journey.

I have not used a train since and have no reason to soon but I have definitely learnt my lesson.

When the officer makes his report, I assume it is only based on what I have signed To agree that what he has written down is what we spoke about? Sorry but I have never been in this position before so I am petrified.

 

[gray1404]

You were not made to sign anything. You don't have to sign anything so you choose to on request.

Yes or no, did you ask the lady if you could pay at the other end, onboard or tell her you didn't have a ticket.

I'm wondering if it could said that you were given permission to trave when you were let through the ticket barriers...

 

[Wazza]

What I’m asking is whether what I signed (officers booklet that showed a transcript of our conversation) is the only information that the case officer takes into account when writing to me?

Yes the lady let me through knowing I didn’t have a ticket to get on the train with. I cannot remember word for word what I or she said, sorry.

Am I facing jail time for a first offence?

 

[Haywain]

I'm wondering if it could said that you were given permission to travel when you were let through the ticket barriers...

That would not hold much water in view of this...

tried my luck getting through the barrier at STP but there was a revenue officer the other side.

I think it is reasonable to think that being given permission to travel and buy a ticket on the train or at the end of the journey does not give permission to 'try one's luck' at a ticket barrier.

 

[Wazza]

I’ll just wait for the letter to come through. I assume the letter details what the officers report states and what action the train company is wanting to take.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Am I facing jail time for a first offence?

This can be answered categorically - no, you will not go to jail.

There are perhaps four ways this matter can progress

1. for whatever reason, you never hear from the railway company again. As they've decided to drop it, you don't go to jail.
2. the railway company get in touch and are happy to negotiate an out of court settlement. You pay them the money they ask for, and you don't go to jail.
3. the railway company take you to court (maybe after you fail to negotiate an out of court settlement) and prosecute you under the railway byelaws for not having a valid ticket. You lose (because this is what lawyers call a 'strict liability' offence - you didn't have a ticket, and the law is not particularly interested in why you didn't have one) and you pay a fine, court costs, the other side's costs and so on, and you don't go to jail.
4. the same as point 3 above, but the railway company prosecute you under the Regulation of Railways Act ('RORA') for intending to evade paying your fare. This involves the railway proving that you weren't planning to pay, which is a harder test than the strict liability in point 3. The law does allow you to be sent to prison for this - but this is almost unheard of. I think there is a reference some time in the last year to someone having been sent to prison - but that was for multiple fare evasion and was rolled in with a number of other offences (shoplifting, alcohol and drugs related) which makes me think that the magistrate was actually getting an unfortunate off the street to somewhere where he could be compelled to get help for his disrupted lifestyle. In practice, like point 3, you pay a (higher) fine, court costs, the other side's costs and so on, and you don't go to jail.

You won't go to jail. More likely than not, you will be hit in the wallet. But you won't go to jail.

(Edited to correct a typo - and to add that points 3 and 4 are alternative to each other: you can only go to court once for this.)

 

[najaB]

3. the railway company take you to court (maybe after you fail to negotiate an out of court settlement) and prosecute you under the railway byelaws for not having a valid ticket. You lose (because this is what lawyers call a 'strict liability' offence - you didn't have a ticket, and the law is not particularly interested in why you didn't have one) and you pay a fine, court costs, the other side's costs and so on, and you don't go to jail.

Since Ashford is a barriered station and there's no suggestion that the OP jumped the barrier, it's unlikely that the TOC would proceed with a Byelaw 18 prosecution since it's within 'reasonable doubt' that had been given what they took as permission to board by an authorised person.

 

[Wazza]

Thanks for the reassurance.

 

[Mr Micawber]

As you signed the officer's notebook,this suggests you were interviewed for an MG11 or Byelaw offence
A Penalty Fare would have been issued via tablet
Did you have the means to pay for your journey?
Were you cautioned?

 

[Wazza]

I had the means to pay yes. I was honest why I had jumped the barrier at STP. He also cautioned me yes.

Judging by the replies, a large fine is the most likely outcome?

 

[Mr Micawber]

Ah jumped the barrier.OK.there is a desk on the right at St Pancras High Speed before the barriers where you could have offered to pay the fare.Sounds like you've been reported under the Regulation of Railways Act

 

[gray1404]

In light of the additional information. I am assuming by "jump the barrier" you either tried to jump over it or tailgate someone though (i.e. get through it without a valid ticket). What EXACTLY did you do between getting off the train at St Pancras and starting your conversation with the ticket inspector?

I highly suspect that the train company will write back to you asking for your side of the story at the very least and it may still be possible to negotiate a settlement with them. I am concerned though that they may try to bring proceedings under the Regulation of Railways Act. Not only did you use a ticket barrier in the wrong way but by doing so you showed clear intent to avoid paying for your rail fare. In addition you were unable to produce a ticket when you should have been (although it could be argued that you were given permission to travel.).

In short, you have made a real mess up here. We are here to assist you but now is the time you start using the railway correctly. Rushing onto the train without a ticket when you should have one is one thing, but jumping the barrier is another.

 

[Wazza]

Once I was off the train I walked with the crowd as usual. It was a 12 carriage train that was full up as usual. I didn’t do anything between the barrier and talking to the inspector - he saw me straight away and I had no choice other than begin a conversation with him where we established I didn’t have a ticket for my travel. Why do you ask?

Once we began talking it was a very honest conversation where I admitted to the officer that I had avoided to pay for a ticket but I even offered to buy a ticket there using the machine on the platform. I did not try and ‘blag’ my way with the officer and as I stated previously, we had a very civilised conversation.

I understand and know what I did was wrong and have learnt my lesson.

You mention proceedings in your post - what proceedings are we talking about? What’s the possible and likely punishment for a first time offender?

I really appreciate he help, thank you.

 

[gray1404]

I have amended my posts to reflect the actual situation now that the OP have provided confirmation that they tailgated through the barrier before they were stopped by the RPI.

 

[Wazza]

No no I went through the barrier. I was then stopped by the officer where I admitted what I had done.

Sorry I thought you meant between the barrier once I had gone through and then begin talking to the officer.

I was let through the barrier at Ashford, I tailgated the barrier at STP and then the officer saw me and asked me for my valid ticket which I could not produce. I was honest with him about what I had done.

 

[gray1404]

So this is quite serious then given you went through the barrier in the way you did. Not only were you unable to produce a valid ticket, but you also went on to use a barrier incorrectly (which is an offence in it's self) and then your actions showed clear intent to avoid paying the fare.

Wait for the letter now from the train company. That is all you can do. Not much more can be said until then and your best hope once that letter arrives is to then be able to negotiate an out of court settlement.

 

[Wazza]

I wasn’t asked on my journey to produce a valid ticket - there was no conductor on the train to buy a ticket.

I was let through the barrier at Ashford and then did what I did at St Pancras. Between Ashford and the officer seeing me at STP, I had not seen a southeastern employee.

Is it likely that I’ll receive a fine and a slap on the wrists?

 

[gray1404]

South Eastern may decide to prosecute you for your actions or they may decide, perhaps as it is a first time offence, to offer you an out of court settlement. Either way, you will not be going to jail and at worst it would be a fine plus a criminal record if it was dealt with under the Regulations of Railways Act. Hopefully though they will offer a settlement and if it does go to court they will use a bye-law prosecution as that is not as severe. There is nothing more we can tell however until they write to you. The only thing I would say is that you have aggravated the situation more by tailgating though the barrier but it is what it is and that is all we can deal with now.

 

[island]

It's an offence to go through a ticket barrier otherwise than in the correct manner, and also to travel without having paid your fare and with intent to avoid the payment thereof. Why didn't you purchase a ticket from the onboard manager on the train? Why did you tailgate the barrier at St. Pancras rather than speaking to a staff member to obtain a ticket for the journey you had made?