Southeastern Fine - No working Machine

[aidarman1]

Hi All,

I have recently been given a £110 fine for not providing a ticket on the train when asked to do so,

A number of reasons for this but this is the first time I have actually been given a fine on the train which is suprising to me,

The ticket machine was not working/Not taking my credit card when I was trying to buy a train ticket at Headcorn Station,

When I normally don't have the time to buy a ticket, I would normally search for a conductor to buy one on the train, however there was not one present on this train or not one that walked by,


Does anyone have any recommendations in order to appeal this fine, or if I will have any successes in appealing this, I have spoke to a southeastern representative on the phone and even they say that there should always be someone on the train to provide me with a ticket if I couldnt get one,

Thank you!

 

[AlterEgo]

Is there a reason you didn't use the ticket office at Headcorn? When did you travel? It is open for most of the day on weekdays, for example.

It's an offence to board a train without a ticket in these circumstances unless the railway didn't give you an opportunity to pay - that is, there was no ticket machine available/broken AND the ticket office was closed.

 

[aidarman1]

The Ticket office was closed at the time of travel, I travelled at 7am this morning

 

[AlterEgo]

The Ticket office was closed at the time of travel, I travelled at 7am this morning

Did you mention this when you were penalty fared? It shouldn't have been closed because it's supposed to open from 6am: https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations/headcorn/

What was your destination - were you intercepted there?

 

[aidarman1]

Did you mention this when you were penalty fared? It shouldn't have been closed because it's supposed to open from 6am: https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations/headcorn/

What was your destination - were you intercepted there?

My destination was London Bridge, I was asked just before getting off around 5-10 minutes before london bridge, I mentioned this to him and he agreed to me that I couldn't buy a ticket from headcorn but he still said that due to the offence, that getting on a train without a valid ticket is still an offence and so the fine was given

 

[AlterEgo]

My destination was London Bridge, I was asked just before getting off around 5-10 minutes before london bridge, I mentioned this to him and he agreed to me that I couldn't buy a ticket from headcorn but he still said that due to the offence, that getting on a train without a valid ticket is still an offence and so the fine was given

That doesn't sound right at all. If the ticket office was closed and there is no working ticket machine then you shouldn't have been penalty fared - this is very elementary - so the only logical conclusion is he didn't believe you.

When you spoke to Southeastern on the phone did they explain why the ticket office was closed at 7am when it is supposed to open from 6am?

It would help if you could upload a copy of the notice with your details redacted so we can examine it.

 

[aidarman1]

I strictly said this to him that I couldn't buy a ticket at the station, but because I didn't have a ticket, even though I asked if I could just purchase one on my phone instead, he still issued the fine to myself

 

[AlterEgo]

I strictly said this to him that I couldn't buy a ticket at the station

And that is all you said to him?

Just that you couldn't purchase a ticket?
Did you say anything about a broken or faulty machine, or that the ticket office was closed?

, but because I didn't have a ticket, even though I asked if I could just purchase one on my phone instead, he still issued the fine to myself

I notice he has issued the Penalty Fare to St Pancras International. Is that were you were going?

 

[aidarman1]

That is where I was going yes, and I did say to him the ticket machine wasn't working and that the ticket office was closed but because of laws and that I didn't have a working ticket, the fine was handed out and that his words was if I am being genuine/if there is something that prevented me on getting a ticket, then appeal was the way to go

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Why is the unpaid fare = £22.80, isn't that for a Super Off Peak Day Single if from Headcorn to London? Is such a ticket ever valid during the morning peak on a weekday?

 

[WesternLancer]

That is where I was going yes, and I did say to him the ticket machine wasn't working and that the ticket office was closed but because of laws and that I didn't have a working ticket, the fine was handed out and that his words was if I am being genuine/if there is something that prevented me on getting a ticket, then appeal was the way to go

Do you live in Headcorn / commute regularly? It may be worth you going back to the station when you can to ask the staff there (assuming they are open) why they were not open at about 7am today. If you can get a an explanation, make a note of it and the name of the person you speak to.

This isn't vital for you to know but I'm assuming the basis of your appeal will probably have to be that you were unable to buy a ticket before boarding due to the ticket machine not working and the ticket office being closed when it was meant to be open.

You are not obliged to buy tickets on your phone even if you have the ability to do so.

I don't suppose you took proof of the ticket machine not working by any chance? - eg a photo of a failed screen for example.

It will probably always be worth submitting an appeal to the Penalty Fare, but best get advice from here on how best to word that Appeal.

The problem will be that SE Trains will say 'the ticket machine was working' or 'the ticket office was open' and the Appeal body will take their word for it, tho you do get different stages of Appeal that you can keep pursuing.

 

[superkopite]

I don't know about the Headcorn line, by certainly on the Medway lines into London, both HS and non-HS, the guards make announcements offering to sell tickets to anyone who doesn't have one. Every day, I see many people buying tickets, without even being questioned as to if they had a previous opportunity or not. It doesn't seem right that you are not extended the same.

 

[rs101]

If it's anything like my local station, there is often only 1 member of staff around who are supposed to both staff the ticket office and dispatch trains. So even though the office is supposedly open 05:45 - 20:45, Monday to Friday, there's regularly a 'back in 10 minutes' sign up.

 

[Hadders]

No offence was committed here. If there are no ticket issuing facilities at the station where you start your journey, or facilities exist but they do not accept your chosen method of payment then you may board the train without a ticket and purchase one at the earliest opportunity. This might be onboard, at an interchange station (if there is sufficient time), or at your destination. You are not required to use a mobile phone to purchase a ticket if the ticket office or ticket machine are not available.

You should submit an appeal, we will be happy to assist with proof reading it.

 

[Fatboyslim]

When I come across a machine not working, I always take a picture of the thing, with the display. Last time guard came down train, showed him the picture. “No problem mate, I have a list of what machines are defective, and that’s one.” You should submit an appeal asap.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Why is the unpaid fare = £22.80, isn't that for a Super Off Peak Day Single if from Headcorn to London? Is such a ticket ever valid during the morning peak on a weekday?

Is my earlier point possibly relevant / of any help?

 

[Edsmith]

Hi All,

I have recently been given a £110 fine for not providing a ticket on the train when asked to do so,

A number of reasons for this but this is the first time I have actually been given a fine on the train which is suprising to me,

The ticket machine was not working/Not taking my credit card when I was trying to buy a train ticket at Headcorn Station,

When I normally don't have the time to buy a ticket, I would normally search for a conductor to buy one on the train, however there was not one present on this train or not one that walked by,


Does anyone have any recommendations in order to appeal this fine, or if I will have any successes in appealing this, I have spoke to a southeastern representative on the phone and even they say that there should always be someone on the train to provide me with a ticket if I couldnt get one,

Thank you!

As far as I can see you've done nothing wrong and I would have politely told him where to go. There have been a lot of complaints on social media recently about overzealous Southeastern revenue staff and this sounds like a prime example. A guard would have sold you a ticket without any problem at all.

 

[ollyrogers]

This won't help much except for future reference but just to add that this is a regular occurrence at my station (Otford - OTF), where the ticket office is often inexplicably closed despite being 'within hours'.

On the occasions the ticket machine isn't working, I take a short video showing the issue I'm facing and, if challenged, show this along with my many old tickets to the guard/ RPI. On the handful of times this has happened, this has been sufficient for them to allow me to purchase a ticket on the train.

 

[Edsmith]

This won't help much except for future reference but just to add that this is a regular occurrence at my station (Otford - OTF), where the ticket office is often inexplicably closed despite being 'within hours'.

On the occasions the ticket machine isn't working, I take a short video showing the issue I'm facing and, if challenged, show this along with my many old tickets to the guard/ RPI. On the handful of times this has happened, this has been sufficient for them to allow me to purchase a ticket on the train.

I've often seen Otford ticket office closed at times it should be open although the ticket machine outside usually seems to be working. I understand your reason for taking a video etc but on principle passengers shouldn't have to do that to prove their 'innocence'.

 

[ollyrogers]

I've often seen Otford ticket office closed at times it should be open although the ticket machine outside usually seems to be working. I understand your reason for taking a video etc but on principle passengers shouldn't have to do that to prove their 'innocence'.

I wholeheartedly agree but sadly this is the time we live in. I just see it as an additional insurance policy against a criminal record as, despite being on good terms with most guards on the Maid East line and trusting them to apply common sense and understanding, the 'human tennis balls' are an entirely different animal.

 

[Edsmith]

I wholeheartedly agree but sadly this is the time we live in. I just see it as an additional insurance policy against a criminal record as, despite being on good terms with most guards on the Maid East line and trusting them to apply common sense and understanding, the 'human tennis balls' are an entirely different animal.

This is the problem, most Southeastern guards are fine in my experience but revenue staff seem to make up the rules as they go along.

 

[artjunction]

If it's anything like my local station, there is often only 1 member of staff around who are supposed to both staff the ticket office and dispatch trains. So even though the office is supposedly open 05:45 - 20:45, Monday to Friday, there's regularly a 'back in 10 minutes' sign up.

However Headcorn isn’t station despatch

 

[Snow1964]

I have spoke to a southeastern representative on the phone and even they say that there should always be someone on the train to provide me with a ticket if I couldnt get one,

Just for clarity, were you waiting for the guard to come along, ie on patrol along the train, (but he/she didn't) or did you actively wander the train looking for a guard, (even if you didn't search every carriage).

If a ticket office had a closure (even if unscheduled) then guard really should have been making more effort to sell tickets. It's not the customer's responsibility to do extra to cover for staff shortages

 

[Brissle Girl]

Just for clarity, were you waiting for the guard to come along, ie on patrol along the train, (but he/she didn't) or did you actively wander the train looking for a guard, (even if you didn't search every carriage).

If a ticket office had a closure (even if unscheduled) then guard really should have been making more effort to sell tickets. It's not the customer's responsibility to do extra to cover for staff shortages

Worth noting the last post here before today was nearly 4 months ago.

 

[Cowley]

Yes I think we can leave this one now.