SouthEastern fleet replacement updates

[James Finch]

Yes, they have talked about the Desiro Verve before, which could well be offered. It is a modular platform a bit like the Mireo which could well be adapted for Southeastern.

I quite like the the look of that, but it has been shown in a more of an intercity layout. How that will function for a metro operation, I don't know, however I'd assume it could easily be modified to suit.

Biggest problem though could be going from 20m to 23m coach length, as it will likely mean a thinner train, and thus less floor space. If I'm correct, the only train in Britain with coaches longer than 20m and still be of a "wide body" design (2.8m) is the 345...

EDIT: Also the 720

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I quite like the the look of that, but it has been shown in a more of an intercity layout. How that will function for a metro operation, I don't know, however I'd assume it could easily be modified to suit.

Biggest problem though could be going from 20m to 23m coach length, as it will likely mean a thinner train, and thus less floor space. If I'm correct, the only train in Britain with coaches longer than 20m and still be of a "wide body" design (2.8m) is the 345...

The Class 345 is 2.77m wide. Class 800-803/805/807 have 26m carriages and are 2.7m wide.

 

[jonnyfan]

Class 323s are 2.8m wide, and just shy of 23m long carriages. Class 165s & 166s are just over 2.8m wide and over 23m long. The end of the carriages on them all taper in to keep within guage, so it can certainly be done.

 

[JonathanH]

I'm not sure that anything with vehicles over 20m is going to get in to Charing Cross or Cannon Street.

 

[py_megapixel]

- CAF hasn't got a metro-type EMU design (class 331 is more of an intercity design)

You might be thinking of the 397s for TPE, also built by CAF, which run their express services on the west coast mainline - the 331s are Northern's, and they do a lot of commuter work with frequent stops, large numbers of peak-time standing passengers etc.

 

[jackot]

I quite like the the look of that, but it has been shown in a more of an intercity layout. How that will function for a metro operation, I don't know, however I'd assume it could easily be modified to suit.

Biggest problem though could be going from 20m to 23m coach length, as it will likely mean a thinner train, and thus less floor space. If I'm correct, the only train in Britain with coaches longer than 20m and still be of a "wide body" design (2.8m) is the 345...

EDIT: Also the 720

Yes, that was not to suggest that the concept Verve is perfect as is for SE - it most definitely isn't! With 20m carriage lengths, an interior layout more resembling the 707s and various other changes it might well be. However, if I'm being honest with myself I am really just describing the Desiro City, so maybe an updated version of that might be better after all!

How about level boarding? I am not well informed as to if/when it will become a requirement for new tenders but is it likely to be preferable on this one? If so it would rule out the use of any existing stock.

 

[James Finch]

Class 323s are 2.8m wide, and just shy of 23m long carriages. Class 165s & 166s are just over 2.8m wide and over 23m long. The end of the carriages on them all taper in to keep within gauge, so it can certainly be done.

Fair points well made, it's just far less frequent to optimise for width, which I see as important because it means seats have to be thinner, and so most people "overflow" off of them, leading to discomfort. Civity, MK3 coach, IET, Super Sprinters (158/159) all have this problem, to name a few.

There are also infrastructure concerns to consider - if longer coach lengths could've been used for the 395's, I'm pretty sure they would. As a result of not compromising on width, their seats are the best I've been on anywhere in Britain. Yes, they are a higher-speed train, but they have a very heavy commuter layout, similar to a lot of Electrostars (including 375/377)

Yes, that was not to suggest that the concept Verve is perfect as is for SE - it most definitely isn't! With 20m carriage lengths, an interior layout more resembling the 707s and various other changes it might well be. However, if I'm being honest with myself I am really just describing the Desiro City, so maybe an updated version of that might be better after all!

And now we are back at existing designs! Life really is cyclical, isn't it...

How about level boarding? I am not well informed as to if/when it will become a requirement for new tenders but is it likely to be preferable on this one? If so it would rule out the use of any existing stock.

Other than the FLIRT's, all other trains in Britain have a floor height ~1100mm. Infrastructure improvements at stations to raise up the additional 70mm to meet the train floor (platforms are usually 940mm) would make more long term sense (the examples at Heathrow, XR and soon HS2 are great examples of this). A low floor mainline design would lead to less floor space, which is detrimental to metro operations - the floor on the 745 is almost too thin for 2+2 intercity seating, let alone suburban services! Sure, the 777's seem to handle it well, but they are more similar to the S Stock in the type of service they offer.

Step-free, independent accessibility needs to be actively prioritised in all further railway thinking, but lowering mainline train floors to accommodate this brings in more problems than it solves.

 

[Doomotron]

Hitachi and Alstom will be busy with the HS2 order. CAF Newport isn't big enough for the order. I'd expect it to go to Siemens.

Are the HS2 trains even in production yet though? I hardly think they're going to be needed for years from now.

 

[James Finch]

Are the HS2 trains even in production yet though? I hardly think they're going to be needed for years from now.

Don't think so, although I wouldn't be surprised if preparatory work has begun, as (if my memory serves me correctly) the estimated entry into service is 2027-2029. Sure, they aren't likely to be needed for around a decade, but I guess DfT wants them to have been in service for a short period before being tested on HS2...?

EDIT: First train rolling off the production line in 2027, entry into service 2029 - 2033

HS2 Ltd awards landmark rolling stock contracts to Hitachi-Alstom joint venture

Major boost for UK train-building as HS2’s state-of-the-art fleet of 225mph (360km/h) high speed trains will be built by Alstom and Hitachi Rail at their factories in County Durham, Derby and Crewe Landmark contract set to support 2,500 jobs across the UK and boost the economy by over £157m...

mediacentre.hs2.org.uk

HS2 Ltd awards landmark rolling stock contracts to Hitachi-Alstom joint venture​

Published on
09 Dec 2021

• Major boost for UK train-building as HS2’s state-of-the-art fleet of 225mph (360km/h) high speed trains will be built by Alstom and Hitachi Rail at their factories in County Durham, Derby and Crewe
• Landmark contract set to support 2,500 jobs across the UK and boost the economy by over £157m each year
• New images of what the trains could look like, including broadcast quality video, available here: https://visual.library.hs2.org.uk/p/share/xX9lUd9E8rZ7
• View and embed an animation of the trains here:

HS2 Ltd today confirmed that a Hitachi/Alstom JV has been awarded the contracts to build Britain’s next generation of high speed trains at their factories in Derby and County Durham in a major deal set to support 2,500 jobs across the UK.
The landmark contracts – worth around £2bn – will see the JV design, build and maintain a fleet of 54 state-of-the-art high speed trains that will operate on HS2 - the new high-speed railway being built between London, the West Midlands and Crewe.
Capable of speeds of up to 225mph (360km/h), the fully electric trains will also run on the existing network to places such as Glasgow, Liverpool, Manchester and the North West. Building on the latest technology from the Japanese Shinkansen ‘bullet train’ and European high-speed network, they will be some of the fastest, quietest and most energy efficient high-speed trains operating anywhere in the world.

As a result, it may be fair to assume Alstom/Hitachi may not have any manufacturing capacity for additional trains, and thus Siemens becomes the most likely option (from Alstom)

 

[ScottGallagher]

It also depends what happens with the Northern diesel fleet replacement which would garner or protect more votes accross the North than replacing a concentrated fleet on South East London suburban lines.

Are any of the manufacturers able to take on both projects?

 

[Stephen42]

It also depends what happens with the Northern diesel fleet replacement which would garner or protect more votes accross the North than replacing a concentrated fleet on South East London suburban lines.

Are any of the manufacturers able to take on both projects?

Very few people will vote based on if rolling stock in their local area is replaced, nearly all voters will have more important issues and few will be aware of upcoming fleet replacement if the trains aren't in service.

CAF is unlikely to win this so could do that fleet replacement or more class 195s. Northern haven't done a formal notification for a large scale fleet replacement anyway. It might be possible to do the Southeastern fleet before the HS2 fleet ramps up as less design work should be required for the Southeastern version.

 

[Energy]

It also depends what happens with the Northern diesel fleet replacement which would garner or protect more votes accross the North than replacing a concentrated fleet on South East London suburban lines.

Northern and Southeastern rolling stock replacement are fairly independent.

Southeastern is due to Networker spare parts being increasingly sparse and the Networkers requiring more maintanence as they get older. As such replacing them with a modern proven train could reduce overall operating cost.

Replacing stock at Northern would almost certainly increase cost (if they went for DMUs) though new trains could attract more passengers.

 

[AM9]

Class 323s are 2.8m wide, and just shy of 23m long carriages. Class 165s & 166s are just over 2.8m wide and over 23m long. The end of the carriages on them all taper in to keep within guage, so it can certainly be done.

It's not just the length of the cars that determines the maximum width, The distance between the bogie centres also determines the maximum overhang at the centre of the car on curves. Reducing that distance then increases the overhang at the ends of the cars but that can be mitigated by tapering the car ends, - usually in an area where the slight loss of width con be accommodated. There is a practical imit to this as the couplings require increased lateral compliance when passing over reverse curves, so walk-through open gangways which are favoured on metro and suburban services need carefully designed floor components at the interface between the cars.

 

[43066]

T

It also depends what happens with the Northern diesel fleet replacement which would garner or protect more votes accross the North than replacing a concentrated fleet on South East London suburban lines.

Are any of the manufacturers able to take on both projects?

I doubt either is going to garner many votes at all. Many passengers think that the same units with a lick of paint are brand new trains, in any case!

 

[hwl]

I'm not sure that anything with vehicles over 20m is going to get in to Charing Cross or Cannon Street.

They could do if you don't mind the sides being scraped especially if there is train on the adjacent tracks

It's not just the length of the cars that determines the maximum width, The distance between the bogie centres also determines the maximum overhang at the centre of the car on curves. Reducing that distance then increases the overhang at the ends of the cars but that can be mitigated by tapering the car ends, - usually in an area where the slight loss of width con be accommodated. There is a practical imit to this as the couplings require increased lateral compliance when passing over reverse curves, so walk-through open gangways which are favoured on metro and suburban services need carefully designed floor components at the interface between the cars.

Short bogie centres are effectively part of the Cannon Street limitation (which isn't unique on SE but anything that work there will also work at other problems locations.)

 

[Energy]

I doubt either is going to garner many votes at all. Many passengers think that the same units with a lick of paint are brand new trains, in any case!

When the Scotrail 170s moved to EMR there was lots of praise for "new" trains on twitter... they're still running around in scotrail interior.

 

[hwl]

As a result, it may be fair to assume Alstom/Hitachi may not have any manufacturing capacity for additional trains, and thus Siemens becomes the most likely option (from Alstom)

One of the reasons of the then Bombardier -Hitachi JV for HS2 was so that both Derby and Newton Aycliffe had sufficient capacity to bid for and manufacturer other large UK orders while building the HS2 stock. Bad assumption to make...

 

[James Finch]

One of the reason of the then Bomardier -Hitachi JV for HS2 was so that both Derby and Newton Aycliffe had sufficient capacity to bid for and manufacturer other large UK orders while building the HS2 stock. Bad assumption to make

Ah, I didn't know that, but I guess it makes sense!

As such, it probably increases the chance for a 701-type unit (702...?) from Alstom being ordered (assuming the software glitches can be sorted out)

 

[hwl]

When the Scotrail 170s moved to EMR there was lots of praise for "new" trains on twitter... they're still running around in scotrail interior.

For Northern (and GWR) Cl.150-156 DMUs don't forget that there will probably be a competitively priced options of 175s (11x 2car and 16x 3car) and 24x 158 (2car) available in the next <18 months. TRU and Wigan Bolton electrification will also slightly reduce Northern's DMU requirement.

 

[urpert]

When the Scotrail 170s moved to EMR there was lots of praise for "new" trains on twitter... they're still running around in scotrail interior

TBF they are quite an upgrade on the 156s we had before, even the Scotrail ones!

 

[Wolfie]

It also depends what happens with the Northern diesel fleet replacement which would garner or protect more votes accross the North than replacing a concentrated fleet on South East London suburban lines.

Are any of the manufacturers able to take on both projects?

In your dreams. The Tories are absolutely bricking losing the Blue Wall down south.

 

[JonathanH]

In your dreams. The Tories are absolutely bricking losing the Blue Wall down south.

The railways aren't the issue that is losing the Blue Wall for them.

 

[Wolfie]

The railways aren't the issue that is losing the Blue Wall for them.

True enough.

 

[Snow1964]

It also depends what happens with the Northern diesel fleet replacement which would garner or protect more votes accross the North than replacing a concentrated fleet on South East London suburban lines.

Are any of the manufacturers able to take on both projects?

Siemens at Google has room for expansion, and by 2027 the Piccadilly line train production will be ending.

CAF could easily build lots of DMUs in mid to late 2020s if required to replace 150-166 fleets

Alstom could possibly build them overseas, or at least deliver bodyshells for final fit out, bit of a curve ball answer, but Eastleigh ought to be able to do fit out, as for decades it stripped EMUs down and reassembled them.

Really these days, trains are more assembly of kit of parts made in multiple locations, than a factory actually making parts and building it. So manufacturers likely to spread the build across multiple sites, with just final assembly taking place where convenient.

 

[43096]

Alstom could possibly build them overseas, or at least deliver bodyshells for final fit out, bit of a curve ball answer, but Eastleigh ought to be able to do fit out, as for decades it stripped EMUs down and reassembled them.

Alstom could assemble them at Derby or Widnes.

 

[D365]

Siemens at Google has room for expansion, and by 2027 the Piccadilly line train production will be ending.

I guess they’ll be searching for a new order!

 

[IndianPacific]

I guess they’ll be searching for a new order!

They will be but it'll also be a nice facility to refurbish all the Desiros at. Modern factories (aka final assembly plants) are relatively flexible compared to older facilities so they could probably bid for that sort of work. I don't think Google would be facing complete closure if they don't win this.

 

[JonathanH]

They will be but it'll also be a nice facility to refurbish all the Desiros at.

Modern trains like Desiros don't look like they will need the same kind of substantial mid-life refurbishment that their predecessors needed.

 

[SouthEastern-465]

I guess they’ll be searching for a new order!

Pun of the day! Haha

 

[MattRat]

Modern trains like Desiros don't look like they will need the same kind of substantial mid-life refurbishment that their predecessors needed.

Looks can be deceiving. The 175s looked great on the inside, still caught fire. Desiros may need looking at under the surface, although I'm not an expert on the matter.