Southeastern Maidstone - Blackfriars 2022.

[4-SUB 4732]

In my experience - pre covid - many of the 6 car 395s were pretty full even off peak, and this would only make the situation even worse. Especially with the amount of house building happening along this mainline. There are thousands and thousands of new homes being built from Rochester to Faversham. But time will tell.

But one has to argue the majority of that demand would have been for peak travel, perhaps now slightly suppressed. They aren't likely to travel off peak too much, and if anything perhaps only warrant the odd Saturday / Sunday morning up or Saturday / Sunday evening down fast train for extra capacity (think Great Northern and those marvellous Peterborough flyers). Similar could be said for amending the High Speed during 'peak' on weekends to put a few extra stops in and take people shopping and what not in Stratford and London.

Now, people will call me a dreamer but the reality is that it would be better to base an entire Monday - Sunday off-peak Takt and then overlay peak extras for Monday to Friday, and then modify those paths to give some capacity on Saturdays and Sundays at key leisure time. That's how the market will now be best served.

On the NR or DLR side? Yes I've seen both and it's a lot (with narrow platforms on the NR side) hence I don't think reducing peak calling at Lewisham on either side is a good plan.



I don't know but seeing as plenty of trains in more secure locations get the grafitti treatment, its something to be considered. Not saying it can't be an easy fix but if it's a longer term aim to stable overnight, then some additional measures might be needed.

The very fact is that having only 2tph from Lewisham to each of the Sidcup line, the Hayes line and the Grove Park line during peak is absolutely bonkers. If they aren't 12 car, then it's problem city.

I was going to say this myself, even Lower Sydenham travellers would be better heading to Penge East where it takes 18 mins to get to Victoria, plus Catford travellers only have to get a train to Nunhead and change there, this service seems very circuitous and duplicates in sections the Penge East line, though I do get the rationale.

My next thought on this is this document dates from 2017, when South Eastern were still set to get a new franchise (it’s since been extended to 2024) and before Covid, working from home will remain at least on a 2 day a week basis will surely remain for years to come, not to mention people leaving London; though this has died down in recent months, I can see post lockdown people will probably move further out, so is this document still valid anymore?

It was weird because although the idea is to reduce conflict moves at Lewisham there still appeared to have 4tph off peak from Bexleyheath making that conflict move to get to Charing Cross while the Woolwich line would lose all its CX services, seems to be a redundant move, either have 2tph Woolwich to CX or no CX trains from Blackheath at all, would better to have Bexleyheath as Cannon Street and reroute the Thameslink Rainham via Blackheath, saves duplicating a Greenwich line Cannon Street service

The document remains extremely valid. Look at its content and you see more off-peak services to places like Tonbridge and Ashford; and rationalising off-peak Metro. People talk about the pandemic like it is going to change the course of rail entirely: the planning for 2022 is obvious and makes sense. They expect high levels of return to rail, and given some routes were Passengers in Excess of Capacity anyway, this means that even with a drop off, you're still running full trains with what you have left. You simply run 8s and 10s where you ran 10s and 12s - and you can't cut frequency and expect the mode to be attractive. To get modal shift you need frequency.

Re: your comments about Lewisham and the Bexleyheath line, it makes perfect sense to have 4tph from that route to Charing Cross. The conflicting move isn't a problem when it is a one-way conflict, that is to say you minimise the crossings and the absolute conflicts (e.g. St Johns to Hither Green, Nunhead to Blackheath); and the 4tph will slot nicely. Quite frankly, the Woolwich line service to/from Charing Cross is absolutely hopeless; and this makes a one-terminal, one-line option off-peak for that route, and at peak. If you desperately want Charing Cross, you can change at Blackheath or, more likely, London Bridge. There's no point blocking up capacity that could be used for a better Metro frequency on the Bexleyheath line off-peak and peak to Charing Cross for the sake of a few people from Charlton and Abbey Wood. Besides, they've got Thameslink and, better, Crossrail to come which will give them their West End fast connections anyway.

 

[387star]

Is the TL service scrapped as a result?

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Is the TL service scrapped as a result?

Which one?

 

[bramling]

Is the TL service scrapped as a result?

I don’t think Maidstone to Cambridge has been officially announced as being scrapped. However as most of the clamour for it seems to come from Kent (the GN side doesn’t seem to care) then setting up a suitable substitute service may well in practice serve as a suitable appeasement.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

I don’t think Maidstone to Cambridge has been officially announced as being scrapped. However as most of the clamour for it seems to come from Kent (the GN side doesn’t seem to care) then setting up a suitable substitute service may well in practice serve as a suitable appeasement.

Cambridge to Kings Cross (stopping) will be the permanent fix; Maidstone East to Blackfriars the same. So it seems most likely the core will in fact reduce to the 22tph rumoured before.

 

[bramling]

Cambridge to Kings Cross (stopping) will be the permanent fix; Maidstone East to Blackfriars the same. So it seems most likely the core will in fact reduce to the 22tph rumoured before.

Yes this does seem to be the likely final outcome. We will wait to see whether Welwyn to Sevenoaks happens.

Another possibility is of course we eventually get Cambridge - Maidstone but not Welwyn - Sevenoaks.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Yes this does seem to be the likely final outcome. We will wait to see whether Welwyn to Sevenoaks happens.

Another possibility is of course we eventually get Cambridge - Maidstone but not Welwyn - Sevenoaks.

Don’t believe that one to be likely as I believe the latter service is critical to getting 700s on/off the Southern region to Hornsey depot, which the Cambridge one doesn’t need as it goes past.

In any event, the depot at Orpington is already operating and only needs route knowledge to Welwyn to be ready; Ashford however is, erm, a mess.

Also, I don’t believe the pathing via London Bridge (which someone told me needed a 3 way move at Parks Bridge of an up fast Hayes, an up Thameslink crossing to the up slow and then something to/from Lewisham) is just unlikely to work all day, every day. This compromise arguably makes more sense.

 

[43074]

The document remains extremely valid. Look at its content and you see more off-peak services to places like Tonbridge and Ashford; and rationalising off-peak Metro. People talk about the pandemic like it is going to change the course of rail entirely: the planning for 2022 is obvious and makes sense. They expect high levels of return to rail, and given some routes were Passengers in Excess of Capacity anyway, this means that even with a drop off, you're still running full trains with what you have left. You simply run 8s and 10s where you ran 10s and 12s - and you can't cut frequency and expect the mode to be attractive. To get modal shift you need frequency.

What other evidence is there that the timetable is being implemented from May 2022, apart from the 2017 document you are repeatedly quoting?

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I was going to say this myself, even Lower Sydenham travellers would be better heading to Penge East where it takes 18 mins to get to Victoria,

Lower Sydenham is a fair old walk to Penge East. Even the 194 bus can take 10-15min due to the heavy traffic in Sydenham Road. Yes, there are some short-cuts for walking but people won't want to be doing this first thing in the morning and won't want to be walking in the dark (esp. through Alexandra Park)

 

[4-SUB 4732]

What other evidence is there that the timetable is being implemented from May 2022, apart from the 2017 document you are repeatedly quoting?

What evidence do you have that it isn’t?

 

[43074]

What evidence do you have that it isn’t?

For a start, there is no timetable change mentioned on Network Rail's latest "Calendar of Events", and if there was a May 2022 recast a) work would be well in advance, and b) it would be considered a major change worthy of a mention on that document. A Southeastern timetable change for Dec 2022 is however shown, but with a strikethrough, implying that whilst it was planned it is no longer happening.

 

[brad465]

Is the TL service scrapped as a result?

Which one?

This may not be the TL service being questioned here, but there has been talk they will let go of the Rainham service once Windmill Bridge and East Croydon upgrades are complete, although I don't think they'll be anywhere near complete for May 2022.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

This may not be the TL service being questioned here, but there has been talk they will let go of the Rainham service once Windmill Bridge and East Croydon upgrades are complete, although I don't think they'll be anywhere near complete for May 2022.

To Reigate, yes.

For a start, there is no timetable change mentioned on Network Rail's latest "Calendar of Events", and if there was a May 2022 recast a) work would be well in advance, and b) it would be considered a major change worthy of a mention on that document. A Southeastern timetable change for Dec 2022 is however shown, but with a strikethrough, implying that whilst it was planned it is no longer happening.

Well I’m glad you’ve spoken to Southeastern about their recruitment of Conductors for the service...

 

[43074]

This may not be the TL service being questioned here, but there has been talk they will let go of the Rainham service once Windmill Bridge and East Croydon upgrades are complete, although I don't think they'll be anywhere near complete for May 2022.

The Reigate services will be diverted Bedford to Gatwick trains, essentially a swap between the Victoria to Reigate and Bedford to Gatwick. Rainham was chosen as a Thameslink destination in the first place as it is 12 car capable, I can't see that going anywhere as it has become an established and popular service between North Kent and Blackfriars/TL core.

 

[Chiltern006]

is anything happening with the Tonbridge to Redhill line e.g is out being taken over by SE and merged with the medway Valley line service to Strood? cheers

 

[swt_passenger]

This may not be the TL service being questioned here, but there has been talk they will let go of the Rainham service once Windmill Bridge and East Croydon upgrades are complete, although I don't think they'll be anywhere near complete for May 2022.

No, the Windmill Bridge and Croydon area rebuild won’t even start major works until about 2024, (if the TWAO is granted), with the first benefits in about 2028, and completion in 2033. That’s from last years NR proposed timeline...

 

[traingeek97]

Ashford however is, erm, a mess

@4-SUB 4732 What’s happening with Ashford? Do any Thameslink drivers work out of there? I assume they spend 40 minutes passing to Sevenoaks (and vice versa) every shift?

 

[4-SUB 4732]

@4-SUB 4732 What’s happening with Ashford? Do any Thameslink drivers work out of there? I assume they spend 40 minutes passing to Sevenoaks (and vice versa) every shift?

Well when it all kicked off in May 2018 (?) I think I recall a diagram where the drivers were PASS to Blackfriars, to then go PASS somewhere else and they managed a whole one Luton on the Rainham line before having to go home.

They do, as someone said, also do Sevenoaks / Orpington as they sign Luton and that’s where peak Orpington trains go.

I have no doubt in the fullness of time there will be a cushty PT&R job to move them to Gillingham (a few of them live in West Malling including a Peterborough driver that moved down), or they’ll be integrated into the fold at Southeastern although one assumes that isn’t desirable due to the pay disparity.

 

[ComUtoR]

or they’ll be integrated into the fold at Southeastern although one assumes that isn’t desirable due to the pay disparity.

If they were moved to SE they would be moved under TUPE. They would stay on their existing contracts and would not have a cut in pay or a change in their terms and conditions.

 

[NorthKent1989]

The Reigate services will be diverted Bedford to Gatwick trains, essentially a swap between the Victoria to Reigate and Bedford to Gatwick. Rainham was chosen as a Thameslink destination in the first place as it is 12 car capable, I can't see that going anywhere as it has become an established and popular service between North Kent and Blackfriars/TL core.

Rainham was an afterthought, if anything once CrossRail is up and running it’ll either be amended to run via another line that could do with such a service, probably unlikely (Sidcup springs to mind) or binned, it wasn’t introduced as some altruistic effort, CrossRail will be much faster and more frequent to Farringdon (And onto the core) so I’m sceptical that both Thameslink and CrossRail will both continue to run this area, SE London is the ugly stepsister in London

For a start, there is no timetable change mentioned on Network Rail's latest "Calendar of Events", and if there was a May 2022 recast a) work would be well in advance, and b) it would be considered a major change worthy of a mention on that document. A Southeastern timetable change for Dec 2022 is however shown, but with a strikethrough, implying that whilst it was planned it is no longer happening.

I thought also that this has been binned, maybe my memory is playing tricks with me but I’m pretty sure that when the extension was announced the timetable change was null and void, and as you have shown it’s been crossed out meaning it probably won’t happen at least in 2022

But one has to argue the majority of that demand would have been for peak travel, perhaps now slightly suppressed. They aren't likely to travel off peak too much, and if anything perhaps only warrant the odd Saturday / Sunday morning up or Saturday / Sunday evening down fast train for extra capacity (think Great Northern and those marvellous Peterborough flyers). Similar could be said for amending the High Speed during 'peak' on weekends to put a few extra stops in and take people shopping and what not in Stratford and London.

Now, people will call me a dreamer but the reality is that it would be better to base an entire Monday - Sunday off-peak Takt and then overlay peak extras for Monday to Friday, and then modify those paths to give some capacity on Saturdays and Sundays at key leisure time. That's how the market will now be best served.



The very fact is that having only 2tph from Lewisham to each of the Sidcup line, the Hayes line and the Grove Park line during peak is absolutely bonkers. If they aren't 12 car, then it's problem city.



The document remains extremely valid. Look at its content and you see more off-peak services to places like Tonbridge and Ashford; and rationalising off-peak Metro. People talk about the pandemic like it is going to change the course of rail entirely: the planning for 2022 is obvious and makes sense. They expect high levels of return to rail, and given some routes were Passengers in Excess of Capacity anyway, this means that even with a drop off, you're still running full trains with what you have left. You simply run 8s and 10s where you ran 10s and 12s - and you can't cut frequency and expect the mode to be attractive. To get modal shift you need frequency.

Re: your comments about Lewisham and the Bexleyheath line, it makes perfect sense to have 4tph from that route to Charing Cross. The conflicting move isn't a problem when it is a one-way conflict, that is to say you minimise the crossings and the absolute conflicts (e.g. St Johns to Hither Green, Nunhead to Blackheath); and the 4tph will slot nicely. Quite frankly, the Woolwich line service to/from Charing Cross is absolutely hopeless; and this makes a one-terminal, one-line option off-peak for that route, and at peak. If you desperately want Charing Cross, you can change at Blackheath or, more likely, London Bridge. There's no point blocking up capacity that could be used for a better Metro frequency on the Bexleyheath line off-peak and peak to Charing Cross for the sake of a few people from Charlton and Abbey Wood. Besides, they've got Thameslink and, better, Crossrail to come which will give them their West End fast connections anyway.

Think you’ll find it’s more than just a few people in Charlton and Abbey Wood who use the Charing Cross service...

I’m not against losing CX I just think that the Bexleyheath’s should lose them too, and I say this as Blackheath resident (though not for much longer) so I have no vested interest before assumptions are made

As for Covid effecting railways, I think you’ll find there will be less commuters as more people decide to work from home two days a week at least, Covid has shown that this can work and in some form it’ll be here to stay

 

[4-SUB 4732]

If they were moved to SE they would be moved under TUPE. They would stay on their existing contracts and would not have a cut in pay or a change in their terms and conditions.

I mean I personally as an LLR wouldn’t like to have folk coming in who are driving the same trains for such a massive amount extra. I’d rather they went to Orpington or Gillingham...

Rainham was an afterthought, if anything once CrossRail is up and running it’ll either be amended to run via another line that could do with such a service, probably unlikely (Sidcup springs to mind) or binned, it wasn’t introduced as some altruistic effort, CrossRail will be much faster and more frequent to Farringdon (And onto the core) so I’m sceptical that both Thameslink and CrossRail will both continue to run this area, SE London is the ugly stepsister in London



I thought also that this has been binned, maybe my memory is playing tricks with me but I’m pretty sure that when the extension was announced the timetable change was null and void, and as you have shown it’s been crossed out meaning it probably won’t happen at least in 2022

Think you’ll find it’s more than just a few people in Charlton and Abbey Wood who use the Charing Cross service...

I’m not against losing CX I just think that the Bexleyheath’s should lose them too, and I say this as Blackheath resident (though not for much longer) so I have no vested interest before assumptions are made

As for Covid effecting railways, I think you’ll find there will be less commuters as more people decide to work from home two days a week at least, Covid has shown that this can work and in some form it’ll be here to stay

So let me check:
Happy for Abbey Wood and Charlton to lose Charing Cross direct, so long as it spites others?

Very odd.

Thameslink Rainham will most certainly not run via Sidcup. If anything, it might take over the bit via Blackheath and Charlton, as that will be an anomaly.

 

[NorthKent1989]

I mean I personally as an LLR wouldn’t like to have folk coming in who are driving the same trains for such a massive amount extra. I’d rather they went to Orpington or Gillingham...



So let me check:
Happy for Abbey Wood and Charlton to lose Charing Cross direct, so long as it spites others?

Very odd.

Thameslink Rainham will most certainly not run via Sidcup. If anything, it might take over the bit via Blackheath and Charlton, as that will be an anomaly.

No not being spiteful...Just putting my opinion forward, just seems more logical to have the Blackheaths as the CS/Thameslink and the Ladywell/Hither Greens as CX and Victoria.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

No not being spiteful...Just putting my opinion forward, just seems more logical to have the Blackheaths as the CS/Thameslink and the Ladywell/Hither Greens as CX and Victoria.

Or, where the capacity clearly exists as all Bexleyheath line trains have to go through Lewisham (unlike Grove Park / Sidcup / Hayes lines that can avoid), they see the future as giving a solid 6tph at peak and 4tph off-peak from the Bexleyheath line to Charing Cross, which is about right. It has to satisfy all of the Lewisham capacity for Waterloo East and Charing Cross, unless a measly 2tph from Grove Park line runs to Charing Cross via Lewisham and they route the Cannon Street services direct Hither Green - St Johns on that route.

The Woolwich line folk could actually see the Cannon Street service as beneficial. They have East London Line connections now that they wouldn't otherwise have.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Or, where the capacity clearly exists as all Bexleyheath line trains have to go through Lewisham (unlike Grove Park / Sidcup / Hayes lines that can avoid), they see the future as giving a solid 6tph at peak and 4tph off-peak from the Bexleyheath line to Charing Cross, which is about right. It has to satisfy all of the Lewisham capacity for Waterloo East and Charing Cross, unless a measly 2tph from Grove Park line runs to Charing Cross via Lewisham and they route the Cannon Street services direct Hither Green - St Johns on that route.

The Woolwich line folk could actually see the Cannon Street service as beneficial. They have East London Line connections now that they wouldn't otherwise have.

East London line connections are pointless...with future CrossRail at Abbey Wood and DLR at Woolwich Arsenal & Greenwich, New Cross is pointless as an interchange for the Docklands or East London, they’ve done well without New Cross so far

 

[4-SUB 4732]

East London line connections are pointless...with CrossRail at Abbey Wood and DLR at Woolwich Arsenal....

Not at all pointless. And now I get the distinct feeling you're being embittered at the whole thing because the direct Charing Cross trains are getting pulled.

 

[Horizon22]

Or, where the capacity clearly exists as all Bexleyheath line trains have to go through Lewisham (unlike Grove Park / Sidcup / Hayes lines that can avoid), they see the future as giving a solid 6tph at peak and 4tph off-peak from the Bexleyheath line to Charing Cross, which is about right. It has to satisfy all of the Lewisham capacity for Waterloo East and Charing Cross, unless a measly 2tph from Grove Park line runs to Charing Cross via Lewisham and they route the Cannon Street services direct Hither Green - St Johns on that route.

The Woolwich line folk could actually see the Cannon Street service as beneficial. They have East London Line connections now that they wouldn't otherwise have.

Frankly the whole of the Woolwich line is going to be rather different once Crossrail gets up and going and I imagine passenger numbers will have a significant shift. But I think that for both the Woolwich and the Bexleyheath lines to lose services that doesn't have much operational benefit either way (they're all going through Lewisham as you say anyway) - its just whether they should primarily be on slow (Cannon St) or fast (Charing X) lines after that point. Many across SE have been keen for "terminal rationalisation" but the residents and passengers have never been...

But in reality a change at London Bridge is nowhere near as much hassle as people make out to be - the Greenwich commuters have managed...

But what @NorthKent1989 says is of course correct that the TL is very much an afterthought after Caterham / Tattenham Corner / Coulson Town terminators were canned by lack of capacity at Windmill Junction. That might change but as pointed out not likely this decade.

Not at all pointless. And now I get the distinct feeling you're being embittered at the whole thing because the direct Charing Cross trains are getting pulled.

Somewhat pointless though with the change at Whitechapel soon to be available. And if they were changing for the Jubilee, that's also now direct.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Frankly the whole of the Woolwich line is going to be rather different once Crossrail gets up and going and I imagine passenger numbers will have a significant shift. But I think that for both the Woolwich and the Bexleyheath lines to lose services that doesn't have much operational benefit either way (they're all going through Lewisham as you say anyway) - its just whether they should primarily be on slow (Cannon St) or fast (Charing X) lines after that point. Many across SE have been keen for "terminal rationalisation" but the residents and passengers have never been...

But in reality a change at London Bridge is nowhere near as much hassle as people make out to be - the Greenwich commuters have managed...

But what @NorthKent1989 says is of course correct that the TL is very much an afterthought after Caterham / Tattenham Corner / Coulson Town terminators were canned by lack of capacity at Windmill Junction. That might change but as pointed out not likely this decade.



Somewhat pointless though with the change at Whitechapel soon to be available.

Not if you live in Charlton, which NorthKent has told us before has vast passenger numbers, apparently very vocal and influential users and such.

 

[Horizon22]

Not if you live in Charlton, which NorthKent has told us before has vast passenger numbers, apparently very vocal and influential users and such.

True Charlton is busy and somewhat the odd one out - flows might change but its hard to know without having origin-destination data. I'm sure someone does and has calculated the benefits.

Thameslink and Crossrail will/have transform journeys across the North Kent lines which haven't had options in decades. It's hard to know how it will all pan out until its operational.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

True Charlton is busy and somewhat the odd one out - flows might change but its hard to know without having origin-destination data. I'm sure someone does and has calculated the benefits.

Thameslink and Crossrail will/have transform journeys across the North Kent lines which haven't had options in decades. It's hard to know how it will all pan out until its operational.

Quite frankly if 8tph to London Bridge via two routes, and the subsequent connections to Waterloo East and Charing Cross isn't good enough, as well as the fact they get the trains to Blackfriars (Thameslink) and St Pancras (marvellous connections), I am sure various other people on the Bexleyheath or Sidcup lines would bite their hands off for that service...

 

[NorthKent1989]

Not at all pointless. And now I get the distinct feeling you're being embittered at the whole thing because the direct Charing Cross trains are getting pulled.

No not bitter at all again with the assumptions and personal attacks

Why would anyone go all the way to New Cross for a ELL service to Whitechapel, when in a few months time, they can simply go to to Abbey Wood or Woolwich CrossRail and reach Whitechapel within a few minutes, this may the case for Lewisham, Blackheath and Charlton residents, but not the whole Woolwich line