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Southeastern metro fleet replacement/improvement

brad465

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Are all the 466s going as there's some 8 and 4 car Networker services running now that really could do with being 10 or 6 again with increases in passengers.
It's a pity that there are platform length restrictions at Tunbridge Wells (and High Brooms?) as the peak busters could do with being 12-car while Orpington is a calling point. Failing that running them at 3tph in the peak, as they did pre-covid, would help if they cannot be 10-car (currently the 17:26 and 17:56 departures from CHX are 10-car Mon-Thu, when the greatest flows are). If there's a particular reason 466s are going there maybe value in sending some stored 465/9s back, so some of the 10-car Networkers can be 12-car, particularly on Sidcup and Bexleyheath line services out of CHX (they already are on some Sevenoaks' stoppers).
 
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Mikey C

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Are all the 466s going as there's some 8 and 4 car Networker services running now that really could do with being 10 or 6 again with increases in passengers.
Southeastern Metro now have a horribly complicated fleet, when compared to how it was when all 465 and 466 operated. I imagine it must be really tricky to decide which services get which train type and length, with presumably (in the absence of 12 car services) 10 car 707s going on the busiest ones.
 

SolomonSouth

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It's a pity that there are platform length restrictions at Tunbridge Wells (and High Brooms?) as the peak busters could do with being 12-car while Orpington is a calling point. Failing that running them at 3tph in the peak, as they did pre-covid, would help if they cannot be 10-car (currently the 17:26 and 17:56 departures from CHX are 10-car Mon-Thu, when the greatest flows are). If there's a particular reason 466s are going there maybe value in sending some stored 465/9s back, so some of the 10-car Networkers can be 12-car, particularly on Sidcup and Bexleyheath line services out of CHX (they already are on some Sevenoaks' stoppers).
I looked at SE's website, and a lot of 10 car trains today are short formed at 8 - due to 466 faults. This could be why.

It appears the 466 and 465 BREL are the least reliable Networkers at the moment, as 466s have obvious issues, but the 465 BREL are not doing well - 465005 and 178 are still in the wall siding at Victoria after months, 465160, 465184 and 465188 (which is coupled to 466008 I might add) have been idle in Slade Green for a while and look to be stuck (it's been a few weeks). Of the remaining 90 or so BRELS, 35 have 1 or more motors off.
 

Wheelspinz

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Are all the 466s going as there's some 8 and 4 car Networker services running now that really could do with being 10 or 6 again with increases in passengers.
No 16 are on lease for a couple of years, also 16 465/9's. Others are coming off lease when C6 are due. Any more than that are to be determined.

Southeastern Metro now have a horribly complicated fleet, when compared to how it was when all 465 and 466 operated. I imagine it must be really tricky to decide which services get which train type and length, with presumably (in the absence of 12 car services) 10 car 707s going on the busiest ones.
376's (5 car) have been doing services for quite a while so only 707's are new.
 
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brad465

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376's (5 car) have been doing services for quite a while so only 707's are new.
They still complicate the fleet now 707s are also in. Therefore I wouldn't be surprised if the fleet tender not only covers Networker replacement, but 376 replacement as well.
 

Wheelspinz

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They still complicate the fleet now 707s are also in. Therefore I wouldn't be surprised if the fleet tender not only covers Networker replacement, but 376 replacement as well.
I don't believe it will be replacing 376's as they are being refurbed with at seat power sockets, LED lighting and will have a livery change wrap the same as 375's:

  • Extensive interior and exterior mid-life refresh of all 36 Class 376 Electrostars.
  • Enhancements include at seat USB/power sockets, energy-efficient LED lighting and a blue exterior wrap.
That wouldn't be done if they were going in a few years.
 
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Chorley Cake

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I was at London Bridge on a weekday morning early in January and there were very few in operation. Ten or so years ago you’d see half the fleet out on a weekday morning.
 

brad465

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They are still in regular service. I don’t know how on earth they are getting away with scrapping so many of them to be honest.
I'd love to know what was wrong with 007 and 014, which went to scrap yesterday. 025 and 037 were both involved in serious breakdowns so I can understand why they went straight from Gillingham, but otherwise it seems odd sending these to scrap while 465/2s and some other 466s have been in storage much longer.
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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I'd love to know what was wrong with 007 and 014, which went to scrap yesterday. 025 and 037 were both involved in serious breakdowns so I can understand why they went straight from Gillingham, but otherwise it seems odd sending these to scrap while 465/2s and some other 466s have been in storage much longer.
A four carriage unit with accessiblity compliance is much more useful than inaccessible two carriage units that cannot be used alone.
 

LUYMun

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Cancelled
A four carriage unit with accessiblity compliance is much more useful than inaccessible two carriage units that cannot be used alone.
So inconvenience passengers by cancelling a service which could've been formed three 466s units (six coaches) for the sake of non-compliance of disabled toilets?
 

brad465

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A four carriage unit with accessiblity compliance is much more useful than inaccessible two carriage units that cannot be used alone.
That doesn't answer my specific question, otherwise SE would be sending stored 465s back in place of these 466s going straight from SE rails to scrap.
 

Stephen42

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It's a pity that there are platform length restrictions at Tunbridge Wells (and High Brooms?) as the peak busters could do with being 12-car while Orpington is a calling point. Failing that running them at 3tph in the peak, as they did pre-covid, would help if they cannot be 10-car (currently the 17:26 and 17:56 departures from CHX are 10-car Mon-Thu, when the greatest flows are). If there's a particular reason 466s are going there maybe value in sending some stored 465/9s back, so some of the 10-car Networkers can be 12-car, particularly on Sidcup and Bexleyheath line services out of CHX (they already are on some Sevenoaks' stoppers).
You have Charing Cross short platforms as well, the Tunbridge Wells currently leave from the wrong side in evening peak.
I don't believe it will be replacing 376's as they are being refurbed with at seat power sockets, LED lighting and will have a livery change wrap the same as 375's:


That wouldn't be done if they were going in a few years.
The 376 refurb is being funded by the fleet owner in line with the lease terms. They don't get any guarantee the fleet will stay on. Angel with 707s perhaps have got a minimum commitment in exchange for funding toilets when they didn't need to.

Either way though whether the 376s stay is based on the business case and hard to see the new stock being cheaper even with the associated costs for a more complex operation. It also opens the opportunity to expand the fleet in future by ordering more than the 376 vehicle count if growth is larger than expected when they come to be replaced.
I'd love to know what was wrong with 007 and 014, which went to scrap yesterday. 025 and 037 were both involved in serious breakdowns so I can understand why they went straight from Gillingham, but otherwise it seems odd sending these to scrap while 465/2s and some other 466s have been in storage much longer.
From what's posted above which roughly matches what's on the Angel Trains stock list more trains are heading off lease. If there isn't likelihood of future operation it doesn't matter how fresh/operational the ones in sidings are. Going straight to scrap avoids one freight move and the ones at Ely can go at some future date.

Maybe the 465s might stick around longer if Angel thinks there's a chance the new fleet gets delayed and Southeastern comes begging for replacement stock for ones which have broken. It's also plausible Southeastern wants the 377s to arrive before removing the 465s and the 466s have less of an impact if they are short.
So inconvenience passengers by cancelling a service which could've been formed three 466s units (six coaches) for the sake of non-compliance of disabled toilets?
The 466s don't have compliant wheelchair spaces and are reliant on the 2 spaces in the 465 coupled to it, it isn't just the toilets.
 

NSEWonderer

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There's a reason that 376 are piss riddled **** boxes.
Totally unsuitable for the routes they're on.
They're very suitable for the metro routes they're used on. Sure they lack a few would be useful features like AC, toilets and charging ports but they're otherwise suitable. Good standing room to seating ratio.
 

andyjhatton

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It really makes time fly when you're lifting your legs to avoid piss rushing up and down the carriages
Could probably make it a selling point
 

D365

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It really makes time fly when you're lifting your legs to avoid piss rushing up and down the carriages
Could probably make it a selling point
and this is the fault of those specific vehicles, how?
 

andyjhatton

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and this is the fault of those specific vehicles, how?
Fairly obviously due to the aforementioned lack of toilets.

Anyway, I don't want to dereail the tread with toilet talk. I strongly believe that all trains on this route should have toilets. I'm sure others will disagree. There we are.
 

brad465

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Fairly obviously due to the aforementioned lack of toilets.

Anyway, I don't want to dereail the tread with toilet talk. I strongly believe that all trains on this route should have toilets. I'm sure others will disagree. There we are.
What time have you been travelling on them? If it's a late evening service, when station/public toilets are shut and a higher proportion of passengers have been drinking booze, I can understand someone "going" in the carriage of a toilet-less train. Middle of the day though would be much riskier, unless you happened to be in an empty carriage, and a non-starter on a peak service.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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What time have you been travelling on them? If it's a late evening service, when station/public toilets are shut and a higher proportion of passengers have been drinking booze, I can understand someone "going" in the carriage of a toilet-less train. Middle of the day though would be much riskier, unless you happened to be in an empty carriage, and a non-starter on a peak service.
Bizarre SE seem fit to retrofit toilets to 707's but not these at the refurbishment - missed opportunity. Are they specced for the replacements?
 

NSEWonderer

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Bizarre SE seem fit to retrofit toilets to 707's but not these at the refurbishment - missed opportunity. Are they specced for the replacements?
707s are easier to fit with toilets as they're a modular build like the 700s of which already have the necessary equipment, space and lines for it. 376s were not originally built with toilets in mind and would require an expensive retrofitting.
 

JonathanH

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376s were not originally built with toilets in mind and would require an expensive retrofitting.
Isn't a 376 just a basic version of the Electrostar platform, whereby the stuff that is in a 375 could be installed in a consistent manner. The Electrostar is a 'modular platform' as well.
 

Wolfie

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Isn't a 376 just a basic version of the Electrostar platform, whereby the stuff that is in a 375 could be installed in a consistent manner. The Electrostar is a 'modular platform' as well.
Yup. The ROSCO and TOC spending the bare minimum.
 

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