Southeastern metro fleet replacement/improvement

[Stephen42]

Bizarre SE seem fit to retrofit toilets to 707's but not these at the refurbishment - missed opportunity. Are they specced for the replacements?

The fleets have two different owners with different strategies for the vehicles. Angel Trains funded the repaint for the Networker livery and the return on investment for toilets on 707s is likely to be better than 376s.

Fitting toilets and air con to the 376s would cost many millions, add to the refurbishment time and possibly require drags off patch if Southeastern's own facilities couldn't do the work. It's unclear whether it would significantly extend the amount of time they remain on lease to be worth the fleet owner paying for.

 

[NSEWonderer]

Isn't a 376 just a basic version of the Electrostar platform, whereby the stuff that is in a 375 could be installed in a consistent manner. The Electrostar is a 'modular platform' as well.

I'd have thought so with AC units, yes but adding a toilet where it never did have the equipment spacing for that, not so. The 376 are the cheaper version of the 375s as you've noted. Its the most skeletal Electrostar. 707s can very easily fit toilets in as the required equipment and space is already on those trains for come the time. 376s don't have such and would need a proper retrofit.

 

[Mikey C]

If the 376s are just kept on the London Metro routes, then why is the lack of toilets any worse than London Underground, Overground and Liz Line trains? Or indeed the related 717 stock, which also doesn't have toilets?

 

[Wolfie]

The fleets have two different owners with different strategies for the vehicles. Angel Trains funded the repaint for the Networker livery and the return on investment for toilets on 707s is likely to be better than 376s.

Fitting toilets and air con to the 376s would cost many millions, add to the refurbishment time and possibly require drags off patch if Southeastern's own facilities couldn't do the work. It's unclear whether it would significantly extend the amount of time they remain on lease to be worth the fleet owner paying for.

While l think that overall it's a regrettable decision the difference in the age of the two fleets - and hence the window for a financial return - doubtless played a part too.

Question: how easily could the 376s be converted to AC overhead power operation. Such a capability would much broaden potential future markets.

If the 376s are just kept on the London Metro routes, then why is the lack of toilets any worse than London Underground, Overground and Liz Line trains? Or indeed the related 717 stock, which also doesn't have toilets?

Agreed in principal

 

[NSEWonderer]

While l think that overall it's a regrettable decision the difference in the age of the two fleets - and hence the window for a financial return - doubtless played a part too.

Question: how easily could the 376s be converted to AC overhead power operation. Such a capability would much broaden potential future markets.


Agreed in principal

Quite easy for the 376s to be converted to AC if required, they have the bath tub of which the wiring etc are still in the train for it. The nearest sister stock to it the 378s, have pretty much the same equipment on there that the 376s would be fitted with come such a time(possibly with slight modifications age wise).

 

[Wolfie]

Quite easy for the 376s to be converted to AC if required, they have the bath tub of which the wiring etc are still in the train for it. The nearest sister stock to it the 378s, have pretty much the same equipment on there that the 376s would be fitted with come such a time(possibly with slight modifications age wise).

TY. That makes the hesitation to invest more in the stock less understandable.

 

[Mikey C]

The lack of aircon on the 376s is regrettable, as the hopper windows for some reason on the 376s just don't seem to work very well when compared to the Networkers.

 

[bramling]

The lack of aircon on the 376s is regrettable, as the hopper windows for some reason on the 376s just don't seem to work very well when compared to the Networkers.

For all the industry seems to have a downer on the Networkers, as far as the end-user is concerned they’re probably preferable to the 376s.

More effective ventilation, more comfortable seats, toilets, and the ability to run in 12-car formations.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

For all the industry seems to have a downer on the Networkers, as far as the end-user is concerned they’re probably preferable to the 376s.

More effective ventilation, more comfortable seats, toilets, and the ability to run in 12-car formations.

“More comfortable“ according to who? That’s never going to be an objective factor. The other points are.

 

[Definiteness]

If the 376s are just kept on the London Metro routes, then why is the lack of toilets any worse than London Underground, Overground and Liz Line trains? Or indeed the related 717 stock, which also doesn't have toilets?

The simple answer to this is that the South East London public has been used to having toilets on their trains since the Networkers came into service (i.e for over 30 years) thus not having them is (and was when the 376s were launched) seen as a step backwards. When the 376s launched there was an associated re-opening of station toilets in the metro area (only useful in staffed hours for smaller stations, not home-from-a-night-out urgent need to go times), and a statement that they would not go beyond Orpington or Dartford, which was very very short-lived. So whilst the general point stands, it's complicated by the local context of what is currently in place for the majority of services, and for the 376s the retrofitting of toilets on the 707s makes the lack of toilets stand out even more.

“More comfortable“ according to who? That’s never going to be an objective factor. The other points are.

The Networker seats are very comfortable - I seem to remember when Chiltern were refurbing their Turbos and ran a public consultation about the interiors the existing seats as also used on the Networkers due to their comfort. For me, and most people I've spoken to about this, which is more than you'd think, off peak you want in this order a 707 (air con, new and shiny, sockets) or a Networker (lots of seats, toilet), and a 376 gets a groan and an oh no (lack of seats, no air con/toilet/sockets, grubby). Peak times you may want a 376 over a Networker depending on where you are getting on because they are much better when standing is required due to the increase in space.

 

[Class15]

Agreed, the 376s are really bad units for anything except the very shortest journeys. Will always prefer a 465/466 or a 707.

 

[3973EXL]

This leaves just 466010 & 466024 left to leave Worksop :- any ideas when this might happen??

Should have moved on 5Q46 - but ran light loco.

Realtime Trains | 5Q46 0945 Worksop Up Receptions to Ely Mlf Papworth Sidings | 17/03/2025

Real-time train running information for 5Q46 0945 departure from Worksop Up Receptions to Ely Mlf Papworth Sidings on 17/03/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 0Q46 0945 Worksop Up Receptions to Ely | 17/03/2025

Real-time train running information for 0Q46 0945 departure from Worksop Up Receptions to Ely on 17/03/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Robin Edwards]

Should have moved on 5Q46 - but ran light loco.

Realtime Trains | 5Q46 0945 Worksop Up Receptions to Ely Mlf Papworth Sidings | 17/03/2025

Real-time train running information for 5Q46 0945 departure from Worksop Up Receptions to Ely Mlf Papworth Sidings on 17/03/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 0Q46 0945 Worksop Up Receptions to Ely | 17/03/2025

Real-time train running information for 0Q46 0945 departure from Worksop Up Receptions to Ely on 17/03/2025. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Many thanks - I popped out again today making it three misses and no cigar! 37800 was nice to see today though.

 

[A60stock]

I do not understand why the SE metro routes are special cases for demanding toilets on the trains. Yes, the reason there are toilets on some of these trains are because much of the fleet (the networkers), also work longer routes. Why are the 376s in anyway, different to say the S8 Stock on LU, or for that matter, any other line where the average journey time is roughly similar?

 

[Wivenswold]

Agreed, the 376s are really bad units for anything except the very shortest journeys. Will always prefer a 465/466 or a 707.

Agreed, they feel like bargain basement units. Their lack of toilets and AC will catch-up with them. Probably another class that will disappear prematurely, especially if GBR brings an element of standardisation.
I feel for anyone who started commuting in 2/4-EPBs and now has to suffer the worst version of the Electrostar every day.

 

[gmaguire]

For all the industry seems to have a downer on the Networkers, as far as the end-user is concerned they’re probably preferable to the 376s.

More effective ventilation, more comfortable seats, toilets, and the ability to run in 12-car formations.

I agree Networker seats are more comfortable than 376 seats.

 

[ScotGG]

They aren't that bad. But like much else with SE Metro for 30 years now they were a case of extreme penny pinching.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I'd have thought so with AC units, yes but adding a toilet where it never did have the equipment spacing for that, not so. The 376 are the cheaper version of the 375s as you've noted. Its the most skeletal Electrostar. 707s can very easily fit toilets in as the required equipment and space is already on those trains for come the time. 376s don't have such and would need a proper retrofit.

There a standard Electrostar bodyshell to which all other variants have a toilet but agree you would have to forgo space and rehash the interior but its not the first train class thats had that done to it.

 

[NSEWonderer]

There a standard Electrostar bodyshell to which all other variants have a toilet but agree you would have to forgo space and rehash the interior but its not the first train class thats had that done to it.

Agreed that's the issue, whilst It's a standard bodyshell in design, it lacks the pipe work or equipment spacing even futureproofing wise(like the bathtub / recces well for potential ac conversion) that the 707 for example has which allows SE not to feasibly install toilets on them.

SE would have seen the cost for such work and rather choose to spend that money elsewhere.

 

[Wolfie]

Agreed that's the issue, whilst It's a standard bodyshell in design, it lacks the pipe work or equipment spacing even futureproofing wise(like the bathtub / recces well for potential ac conversion) that the 707 for example has which allows SE not to feasibly install toilets on them.

SE would have seen the cost for such work and rather choose to spend that money elsewhere.

You seen to believe that the stock is less easily modified than others believe. I'm unsure what the truth is. The key question is would SE or the ROSCO pick up the tab though?

 

[Definiteness]

I do not understand why the SE metro routes are special cases for demanding toilets on the trains. Yes, the reason there are toilets on some of these trains are because much of the fleet (the networkers), also work longer routes. Why are the 376s in anyway, different to say the S8 Stock on LU, or for that matter, any other line where the average journey time is roughly similar?

In principle it clearly isn't - it has the 376s and 707s. But the loud noise made by the passengers in the area about this (linked to the Networkers having toilets and thus people being conditioned to expect them) means that stock without toilets is seen as a retrograde step and is the first thing criticised when they arent available.

I suspect the retrofitting on the 707s is more for potential later use elsewhere than for SE metro per se but is a happy good news story for the TOC as a nice bonus.

 

[NSEWonderer]

You seen to believe that the stock is lessky easily modified than others believe. I'm unsure what the truth is. The key question is would SE or the ROSCO pick up the tab though?

Clearly they've bit opted to pick up the tab, rather a light refresh and instead opted for toilets on the 707s which are much more easier to put toilets in by design.

It's not impossible yes to put toilets in the 376 or even the 378 but both trains would need an extensive retrofit and indeed money compared to units like the 707 which still retained enough of the equipment and lines for future upgrades which reduces the cost quite a bit.

The one upgrade that imo should really have had no issue in doing was the Air Con. That ideally should have been feasible.

 

[SolomonSouth]

Agreed, the 376s are really bad units for anything except the very shortest journeys. Will always prefer a 465/466 or a 707.

Yep, 376s are not very nice. Less seats than either a 707 or 465, no toilets or air con, uncomfortable seats, very poor ride quality, no charging points, generally tired inside, and unable to run as 12 car formations.

 

[Geogregor]

Yep, 376s are not very nice. Less seats than either a 707 or 465, no toilets or air con, uncomfortable seats, very poor ride quality, no charging points, generally tired inside, and unable to run as 12 car formations.

I bloody hate those things, the sooner they are gone the better. One of the worst trains in London. Even the completely clapped out Networkers offer better travelling experience.

Regarding need for toilets on trains, if SWR could specify toilets in class 701 then surely folks in SE London could expect the same?

SE argument used to be that instead of toilets on trains they will have good provision of toilets at stations. Well, we all know how it worked out, especially with constant staff shortages.

Anyway, any gossip or rumor how is the tendering of new units progressing?

 

[SolomonSouth]

I bloody hate those things, the sooner they are gone the better. One of the worst trains in London. Even the completely clapped out Networkers offer better travelling experience.

Agreed. Even the BREL 465s are better.

Anyway, any gossip or rumor how is the tendering of new units

Not sure honestly.

 

[Doomotron]

Regarding need for toilets on trains, if SWR could specify toilets in class 701 then surely folks in SE London could expect the same?

701s having toilets from the factory really isn't the same as fitting them to twenty year old units...

 

[Geogregor]

701s having toilets from the factory really isn't the same as fitting them to twenty year old units...

Of course nobody will fit toilets to class 376. Too late for that. Anyway aircon would be way more important

Luckily it looks like toilets are specified in the new stock. Maybe with a bit of luck class 376 will finally find its way somewhere far far away once the new stock start arriving.

 

[D365]

Luckily it looks like toilets are specified in the new stock. Maybe with a bit of luck class 376 will finally find its way somewhere far far away if the new stock start arriving.

If the new stock arrives - fixed that for you!

Has there been any indication whether the Class 376 and Class 707 fleets will be replaced as part of this prospective metro order? (in the same vein as Class 720 and Class 701)

 

[Class15]

Has there been any indication whether the Class 376 and Class 707 fleets will be replaced as part of this prospective metro order? (in the same vein as Class 720 and Class 701)

Considering how much higher leasing costs are now than when the 701s and 720s were ordered, likely they won’t be replaced.

 

[paul1609]

Quite easy for the 376s to be converted to AC if required, they have the bath tub of which the wiring etc are still in the train for it. The nearest sister stock to it the 378s, have pretty much the same equipment on there that the 376s would be fitted with come such a time(possibly with slight modifications age wise).

i think that an investigation into conversion of some of the 375/ early 377s to dual voltage units concluded that despite the units being designed to be converted it was no longer economically viable. The issue was the missing ac bits transformers and switchgear etc had long since gone out of production. I believe that there were also issues with the now very elderly on board computer equipment. i imagine the same issues would apply to 376s.