Southeastern problems post timetable change

[Mikey C]

The biggest issue is there was an incorrect assumption during the design process that most passengers would wait downstairs until a few minutes before their scheduled departure (those with access requirements aside)

The reality is very few do and head straight up to the platform even if they are waiting 10 mins or more.

All the photos have shown massive overcrowding downstairs though.

And I'd be surprised if that many people went upstairs over 10 minutes before their train, as the platforms are hardly very pleasant places to wait.

 

[Bikeman78]

A big problem with crowd control at London Bridge is that in the evening trains from CHX/CST will continue dumping more people onto the station.

In the morning those people will be catching the first train to one of 2 destinations so the platforms should clear relatively quickly. In the evening some will be waiting for multiple trains to go past before one heading to the correct destination arrives. So the platforms are potentially being filled much faster than you can empty them.

Closing the barriers to incoming passengers is the main method of crowd control on LU but this simply won't be as effective because of the number of people changing. The other LU method is to non stop until overcrowding can be eased, again this doesn't really work because you can't just carry people on to the next station in the same way.

Also add in that the bulk of the barrier staff at London Bridge seem to be agency without the training, experience or motivation to manage the situation correctly...

In addition to the points you make, if the trains from Charing Cross/Cannon Street did not stop, there would be no way of clearing the crowd of people already at London Bridge.

Regarding your last sentence, I had the misfortune to be at London Bridge last year when Charing Cross was shut. The Hastings trains were terminating at London Bridge. The steps had been taped off and the lady at the bottom would not let me up, despite the down Hastings train already being on the departure screen. Imagine my amusement when a 10 car Networker terminated on the opposite platform a few seconds later and tipped out hundreds of people. As soon as she got distracted by people getting tangled up in the tape, I legged it up the stairs.

 

[Mikey C]

The whole justification for removing the choice of terminals was so that they could increase frequencies, not run fewer services and still remove direct trains to where people want to go...

 

[bramling]

All the photos have shown massive overcrowding downstairs though.

And I'd be surprised if that many people went upstairs over 10 minutes before their train, as the platforms are hardly very pleasant places to wait.

There’s certainly people who will turn up very early to maximise the chance of securing a prized seat in declassified first on Thameslink services. Though as this is still relatively niche and the platform ends are well away from the entrances it doesn’t really cause a problem. Unlike at Farringdon northbound where it can be a bottleneck.

 

[AlbertBeale]

That's twice now in recent weeks we've seen these incidents.

The lack of a separate interchange bridge at London Bridge is becoming really telling now.

Absolutely the case - though I've found it a real pain since the station's rebuild anyway - even without the current hassles. And - especially with the high-level and low-level all on the same level now - I have no idea why there isn't an interchange bridge spanning the platforms a bit towards the country end. Isn't it sill possible to add one?

 

[Bald Rick]

No, because of platform width.

There is, of course, an interchange ‘bridge’. It’s called ‘downstairs’.

 

[ScotGG]

Didn't tfl also have the plan of simplifying the terminals, would this have caused similar problems.
Don't Rail delivery group have software for modelling flows through stations ? Tfl has? And applying this modelling to service changes .

They did but crucially not alongside cutting services.

People head to platforms instead of waiting downstairs as reduced services mean getting on a train is less likely if any disruption occurs and held downstairs, especially with some routes now seeing train gaps extend from every 10 mins to 25 mins such as through Greenwich.

 

[ScotGG]

Looks like some of the changes will be reversed from May timetable

Southeastern to restore some off peak Charing Cross trains - Murky Depths

Southeastern are set to bring back off peak trains to Charing cross on the Bexleyheath line though no word on other lines

www.fromthemurkydepths.co.uk

 

[brad465]

No, because of platform width.

There is, of course, an interchange ‘bridge’. It’s called ‘downstairs’.

In my head I believe there was a plan to have a halfway level above the concourse and below the platforms rather than a bridge over the platforms. The fact there isn't one means it must have been dropped or never actually proposed in the first place. I'm pretty sure that won't be easy to add retrospectively now anyway either.

 

[ScotGG]

Another very poor morning after Network Rail signal issues in Lewisham area.

Let's hope some heads knocked together behind scenes as NR failures causing major problems every week for months now and really hampering effectiveness of forcing more passengers to change at Lewisham and London Bridge.

 

[bromleyboy21]

Interesting comment from London Travel Watch about this statement from Network Rail about disruption at London Bridge: https://twitter.com/LonTravelWatch/status/1633056923942637570

 

[Hawkwood Junc]

Another signal system failure today near Hither Green. Looks like everything is being sent down the slows. I’m on a Sevenoaks to Charing Cross stopper and we’ve had a variety of stops delaying us by about 25 minutes so far.

Now being turned back short at London Bridge, we found that out via the announcement on the platform at Lewisham!

It just seems way more frequent than before.

 

[43066]

Another signal system failure today near Hither Green. Looks like everything is being sent down the slows. I’m on a Sevenoaks to Charing Cross stopper and we’ve had a variety of stops delaying us by about 25 minutes so far.

Now being turned back short at London Bridge, we found that out via the announcement on the platform at Lewisham!

It just seems way more frequent than before.

Lines appear to have fully reopened now (I just went through HGR).

EDIT: scratch that! They are moving things between the fast and the slows. Looks like the issue is between HGR and GPK.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Another signal system failure today near Hither Green. Looks like everything is being sent down the slows. I’m on a Sevenoaks to Charing Cross stopper and we’ve had a variety of stops delaying us by about 25 minutes so far.

Now being turned back short at London Bridge, we found that out via the announcement on the platform at Lewisham!

It just seems way more frequent than before.

I don’t recall this many delays pre timetable change, since then it’s been more or less a daily issue in some form or another.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Lines appear to have fully reopened now (I just went through HGR).

EDIT: scratch that! They are moving things between the fast and the slows. Looks like the issue is between HGR and GPK.

HGR? GPK?

 

[Edsmith]

HGR? GPK?

Hither Green and Grove Park which actually GRP.

Welcome to the official source for trains in Great Britain | National Rail

You've found the gateway to Britain's national rail network. The portal to rail travel, including train times, information, fares enquiries, promotions and tickets

www.nationalrail.co.uk

 

[zwk500]

Grove Park which actually GRP.

Neatly illustrating why station names should be given in the initial statement and the abbreviation in brackets alongside.

 

[43066]

HGR? GPK?

Hither Green and Grove Park which actually GRP.

Welcome to the official source for trains in Great Britain | National Rail

You've found the gateway to Britain's national rail network. The portal to rail travel, including train times, information, fares enquiries, promotions and tickets

www.nationalrail.co.uk

Neatly illustrating why station names should be given in the initial statement and the abbreviation in brackets alongside.

Apologies all!

 

[LBMPSB]

Terminating London Bridge saves about 30 minutes (10 minutes x2 to Charing Cross + the turn around time). Sevenoaks would be unecessary.

Up until the Thameslink Programmes started, journey times London Bridge to Charing Cross were timetabled on average at six minutes. Remember the closing of the Charing Cross platforms at London Bridge, when trains ran fast through London Bridge on the Charing Cross side? Well the timings of trains were not altered despite not calling at London Bridge. When the platforms had been reconstructed and Charing Cross services started stopping there, an average four minutes was added to train times now making the average time 10 minutes. That four minutes difference that did not exist pre Thameslink Programme works, now allows additional make up time into Charing Cross. Often you will have trains sitting outside Charing Cross waiting a platfomr because of this, they are not lateor delayed, they just get there there early. SOmetimes, if the preceding train is cancelled a service will arrive so early outside Charing Cross, it may well wait up to 8 minutes for its booked platform to become available.

Regarding terminating at London Bridge, it is not done to help the passenger, it is done so the TOC can get its PPM back. I have seen endless trains terminated at London Bridge because of late running, passngers who joined the train when it was right time, delayed enroute, then have to suffer even more delay changing trains to continue their journey. And even though there is a frequent service through London Bridge, often there is upto a ten minute wait for the next train to take passengers forward which is often full, so a train load of passenger squeeze onto the next Charing Cross service, which gets delayed because of extended dwell time getting extra people on board. And then there are those passengers intending to get the return service from Charing Cross, now starting at London Bridge, who miss it because they are not expecting to have to travel on an earlier train from Charing Cross to then change at London Bridge, and those that do get from Charing Cross then spend upto seven minutes crosing from one platform to another and getting their train. Yep TOCs do not think of their passengers, just their shareholers profit margins.

I noticed London Bridge trending on Twitter this evening, and the photos associated with it look pretty shocking (eg 1, 2, 3) Severe overcrowding in the concourse and on platforms, associated with signalling problems causing disruption I think.

It would only take one incident for that level of overcrowding to become very dangerous, and it must be highly vulnerable to a terrorist attack.

I don't travel in that part of the UK often at all. Are the levels of overcrowding shown common? Or was this an exceptional event?

The issue now with the present timetable, because the majority of trains from each route only go to one London Terminal, if that terminal has an issue, it loses its service. Whereas when the route s had a split of trains going into Cannon Street and Charing Cross, if one terminal feel over there were still trains availble from London Bridge to all routes. But now it means a route may well lose its service, so the result is the recent overcrowding we have had at London Bridge because there are no alternate trains from the other terminal to get passengers home.

 

[Horizon22]

Up until the Thameslink Programmes started, journey times London Bridge to Charing Cross were timetabled on average at six minutes. Remember the closing of the Charing Cross platforms at London Bridge, when trains ran fast through London Bridge on the Charing Cross side? Well the timings of trains were not altered despite not calling at London Bridge. When the platforms had been reconstructed and Charing Cross services started stopping there, an average four minutes was added to train times now making the average time 10 minutes. That four minutes difference that did not exist pre Thameslink Programme works, now allows additional make up time into Charing Cross. Often you will have trains sitting outside Charing Cross waiting a platfomr because of this, they are not lateor delayed, they just get there there early. SOmetimes, if the preceding train is cancelled a service will arrive so early outside Charing Cross, it may well wait up to 8 minutes for its booked platform to become available.

Regarding terminating at London Bridge, it is not done to help the passenger, it is done so the TOC can get its PPM back. I have seen endless trains terminated at London Bridge because of late running, passngers who joined the train when it was right time, delayed enroute, then have to suffer even more delay changing trains to continue their journey. And even though there is a frequent service through London Bridge, often there is upto a ten minute wait for the next train to take passengers forward which is often full, so a train load of passenger squeeze onto the next Charing Cross service, which gets delayed because of extended dwell time getting extra people on board. And then there are those passengers intending to get the return service from Charing Cross, now starting at London Bridge, who miss it because they are not expecting to have to travel on an earlier train from Charing Cross to then change at London Bridge, and those that do get from Charing Cross then spend upto seven minutes crosing from one platform to another and getting their train.

Charing Cross is an incredibly constrained station. Not so much of an issue since Southeastern cut back their timetable since Covid but regularly 12-car trains used to have sub 10 minute turnaround with platform reoccupancy at 3 minutes. The time you state is because of the potential conflict when the lines goes from 2-4 at Ewer St, although it’s normally quite slick. I also think the line speed changed, but happy to be corrected on that. Probably something about dwells too.

Given the earning about terminating a train, passengers can easily get on another service and change at London Bridge and I’ve heard announcements and seen messaging to suggest people do this - it seems to be pretty clear if it happens.

People bemoan “PPM” but it is literally a performance measure; if PPM is 90% that’s better to more passengers than if it is 85%; fewer people are delayed (generally - exceptions to this are cancelling something like the Bromley North shuttle for 4 hours). If you terminate the inbound at London Bridge, the outbound can depart on-time which overall impacts less passengers and also means it is unlikely to pick up residual delay whilst running towards Dartford or Sevenoaks due to congestion and running out of order.

 

[JonathanH]

Yep TOCs do not think of their passengers, just their shareholers profit margins.

What are you on about regarding shareholder profit? Southeastern is a nationalised train operator.

Up until the Thameslink Programmes started, journey times London Bridge to Charing Cross were timetabled on average at six minutes. Remember the closing of the Charing Cross platforms at London Bridge, when trains ran fast through London Bridge on the Charing Cross side? Well the timings of trains were not altered despite not calling at London Bridge. When the platforms had been reconstructed and Charing Cross services started stopping there, an average four minutes was added to train times now making the average time 10 minutes. That four minutes difference that did not exist pre Thameslink Programme works, now allows additional make up time into Charing Cross. Often you will have trains sitting outside Charing Cross waiting a platfomr because of this, they are not lateor delayed, they just get there there early. SOmetimes, if the preceding train is cancelled a service will arrive so early outside Charing Cross, it may well wait up to 8 minutes for its booked platform to become available.

Trains used to be given less time between London Bridge and Charing Cross, and vice versa. That is a fact.

It isn't obvious to me that it is about PPM, it seems likely that it is more about giving a longer dwell at the stations, in particular London Bridge, because of the ability to use two platforms in each direction.

It seems that trains don't wait time at London Bridge heading into Charing Cross if they arrive promptly. It is arguably that which leads to the wait outside Charing Cross.

 

[Horizon22]

It isn't obvious to me that it is about PPM, it seems likely that it is more about giving a longer dwell at the stations, in particular London Bridge, because of the ability to use two platforms in each direction.

It seems that trains don't wait time at London Bridge heading into Charing Cross if they arrive promptly. It is arguably that which leads to the wait outside Charing Cross.

They don’t and haven’t for years. At Waterloo East and London Bridge towards London there is a local instruction to be able to dispatch as soon as it is clear.

 

[JonathanH]

They don’t and haven’t for years. At Waterloo East and London Bridge towards London there is a local instruction to be able to dispatch as soon as it is clear.

Yes, indeed, but if the running time between London Bridge and Charing Cross is increased, and indeed there are less causes of delay on the run in to London Bridge than there were before 2015, the practice of letting trains go at London Bridge exaggerates the dwell outside Charing Cross that was being referred to.

 

[hkstudent]

If we aren't getting back to 6tph on main routes any time soon during off-peak periods, nor returning to the 22-minute timetable at peak times, then there is no good reason not to put into the timetable trains that run from 05:30 - 23:59 every day, at almost perfectly even intervals, with peak services overlaid.

Look at, for example, Abbey Wood to London. At peak times:
- xx:20 Cannon St direct
- xx:28 Luton
- xx:35 Cannon St via Lewisham
- xx:45 Cannon St direct
And repeat to 50, 58, 05, 15.

So that's a gap through Greenwich of about 8, 17, 5 minutes. 17 minute gap.

As for Bexleyheath to London. At peak:
- xx:17 Cannon St direct
- xx:25 Charing Cross direct
- xx:38 Victoria
- xx:43 Cannon St direct
And repeat to 47, 55, 08, 13.

So a gap through, say, Eltham of 8, 13, 5, 4 minutes.

The gap between Cannon Street trains is 4-26-4-26 minutes. This is ridiculous.

To be fair, that's pretty much down to the issue of inflexibility of Thameslink train timetable on North Kent Line making such a major gap.
Especially the Southeastern service is a loop service between North Kent Line and Bexleyheath Line, making that also be not flexible.

More worse is: now Southeastern and Thameslink are not in the same mother group thus making timetable communication more difficult.

With now Elizabeth Line serving Woolwich and Abbey Wood, while Greenwich having DLR, there's less need for North Kent Line to get Thameslink to central London.
Would be better to send that to Bexleyheath or Sidcup Line via Lewisham, to allow them to go to Central London as not having access to Abbey Wood.

 

[Mikey C]

Something I've noticed is that there seems a lot of padding in the timetable between London Bridge and Deptford. I've only do this journey on Saturday, but the train consistently arrives at Deptford early and has to sit there for several minutes for its departure time.

 

[LBMPSB]

What are you on about regarding shareholder profit? Southeastern is a nationalised train operator.


Trains used to be given less time between London Bridge and Charing Cross, and vice versa. That is a fact.

It isn't obvious to me that it is about PPM, it seems likely that it is more about giving a longer dwell at the stations, in particular London Bridge, because of the ability to use two platforms in each direction.

It seems that trains don't wait time at London Bridge heading into Charing Cross if they arrive promptly. It is arguably that which leads to the wait outside Charing Cross.

I am aware Southeastern is a "nationalised" TOC, I was talking TOCs in general, and despite Southeastern being "nationalised" it is still run as a Franchise that the Government could put out to tender at anytime.

Line speeds did not change between London Bridge and Charing Cross, but did between London Bridge and Cannon Street. There is an agreement at London Bridge, that trains going to Charing Cross do not wait for time. Once unloaded and loaded, if another train is arriving on an adjacent platform, staff will dispatch trains before time. Under the new service, even leaving London Bridge four minutes late trains can still arrive right time at Charing Cross. Trains do arrive early outside Charing Cross and wait for their platform, even when on time. The waiting time is excerbated by the fact planners do not run approaching trains into empty platforms, they are often due to arrive on a plaform two minutes after a train has departed the platform. Which means generally they wait outside. Signallers are reluctant to change platforms as this can cause conflict delays on departing & arriving trains for some time.

 

[Bald Rick]

Up until the Thameslink Programmes started, journey times London Bridge to Charing Cross were timetabled on average at six minutes. Remember the closing of the Charing Cross platforms at London Bridge, when trains ran fast through London Bridge on the Charing Cross side? Well the timings of trains were not altered despite not calling at London Bridge. When the platforms had been reconstructed and Charing Cross services started stopping there, an average four minutes was added to train times now making the average time 10 minutes. That four minutes difference that did not exist pre Thameslink Programme works, now allows additional make up time into Charing Cross. Often you will have trains sitting outside Charing Cross waiting a platfomr because of this, they are not lateor delayed, they just get there there early. SOmetimes, if the preceding train is cancelled a service will arrive so early outside Charing Cross, it may well wait up to 8 minutes for its booked platform to become available.

It’s typically 7-9 minutes, not 10. Anything longer than 8 minutes is usually due to pathing time approaching Charing Cross on the up. There are usually no passenger differentials or performance allowances for any services on the up.

Regarding terminating at London Bridge, it is not done to help the passenger, it is done so the TOC can get its PPM back.

Which helps passengers later in the day. It’s only ever done where it is intended to help more passengers than it disadvantages. Also, we don’t manage to PPM any more.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

They don’t and haven’t for years. At Waterloo East and London Bridge towards London there is a local instruction to be able to dispatch as soon as it is clear.

That makes sense at London Bridge, but might not always make sense at Waterloo East, if it means you're dispatching trains that don't have a clear path into Charing Cross. If the train has to wait, probably best that it waits in a platform rather than 30s after leaving the platform. But I guess having the platform staff know whether a train would be able to get into Charing Cross if they dispatch it early would require a level of communication between platform staff and signallers that is probably not feasible

 

[ComUtoR]

That makes sense at London Bridge, but might not always make sense at Waterloo East, if it means you're dispatching trains that don't have a clear path into Charing Cross. If the train has to wait, probably best that it waits in a platform rather than 30s after leaving the platform.

Every train that sitting in the platform is delaying the one behind. Also, I don't want to be sitting in a platform down the line waiting for a clear run. If I'm sitting on a signal just outside the platform, when the platform clears, I'm in. If I'm at the previous platform sitting there waiting for a clear run, your just delaying the service for no reason. Shuffle everything up. If the train arrives at Charing Cross on time. Isn't that a good thing for the passenger ?

But I guess having the platform staff know whether a train would be able to get into Charing Cross if they dispatch it early would require a level of communication between platform staff and signallers that is probably not feasible

They don't need detailed levels of communication. There are various ways to simply see the train pathways. Internally we have a system and externally there are sites like opentraintimes that have visual maps.

 

[PGAT]

Every train that sitting in the platform is delaying the one behind. Also, I don't want to be sitting in a platform down the line waiting for a clear run. If I'm sitting on a signal just outside the platform, when the platform clears, I'm in. If I'm at the previous platform sitting there waiting for a clear run, your just delaying the service for no reason. Shuffle everything up. If the train arrives at Charing Cross on time. Isn't that a good thing for the passenger ?

Are trains able to access the bay platforms (10-15) from the Charing Cross lines? If so it would solve that problem.