Southeastern problems post timetable change

[zwk500]

That makes sense at London Bridge, but might not always make sense at Waterloo East, if it means you're dispatching trains that don't have a clear path into Charing Cross. If the train has to wait, probably best that it waits in a platform rather than 30s after leaving the platform. But I guess having the platform staff know whether a train would be able to get into Charing Cross if they dispatch it early would require a level of communication between platform staff and signallers that is probably not feasible

At Waterloo East won't the signal aspect give a pretty good indication of whether or not the route is set?

Are trains able to access the bay platforms (10-15) from the Charing Cross lines? If so it would solve that problem.

Not easily, and they're not exactly empty either.

 

[PGAT]

Not easily, and they're not exactly empty either.

Even at the high-peak, the most platforms being used at once is 4 (and only for a 1 minute window) and one of the vacant platforms at that time is Platform 10, which is closest to the Charing Cross lines.

 

[43066]

Trains used to be given less time between London Bridge and Charing Cross, and vice versa. That is a fact.

It isn't obvious to me that it is about PPM, it seems likely that it is more about giving a longer dwell at the stations, in particular London Bridge, because of the ability to use two platforms in each direction.

It seems that trains don't wait time at London Bridge heading into Charing Cross if they arrive promptly. It is arguably that which leads to the wait outside Charing Cross.

It makes complete sense as a way of keeping the service flowing, and allowing late running up trains a better chance of departing on time in the down direction.

At Waterloo East won't the signal aspect give a pretty good indication of whether or not the route is set?

A green at Waterloo East means the route is set all the way into a Charing Cross platform. This isn’t awaited, in practice, as it’s more efficient to have inbound trains waiting outside on the bridge as outbound services depart.

 

[zwk500]

Even at the high-peak, the most platforms being used at once is 4 (and only for a 1 minute window) and one of the vacant platforms at that time is Platform 10, which is closest to the Charing Cross lines.

Yes but the crossover is single lead, the down departure will need to cross the up CX, and you don't just need an empty platform you need all the margins and reoccupation times free as well.

 

[Horizon22]

That makes sense at London Bridge, but might not always make sense at Waterloo East, if it means you're dispatching trains that don't have a clear path into Charing Cross. If the train has to wait, probably best that it waits in a platform rather than 30s after leaving the platform. But I guess having the platform staff know whether a train would be able to get into Charing Cross if they dispatch it early would require a level of communication between platform staff and signallers that is probably not feasible

There’s only DOO dispatch on Platform D so that’s not an option. And ultimately it’s down to the signaller - they offer the route ahead which if they knew there was an impending issue ahead (e.g. train fault, signalling issue) prevent a departure from Charing Cross they could hold the train accordingly.

 

[LBMPSB]

Are trains able to access the bay platforms (10-15) from the Charing Cross lines? If so it would solve that problem.

It is easy to get access into Platforms 10-15 at LB, but coming out you need to cross No 8 Up to get onto No 7 Reversible. Then there is the lack of spare capacity in those platforms, also the lack of Driver knowledge of those platforms. The only drivers likely to know them are drivers of Hastings trains.

There’s only DOO dispatch on Platform D so that’s not an option. And ultimately it’s down to the signaller - they offer the route ahead which if they knew there was an impending issue ahead (e.g. train fault, signalling issue) prevent a departure from Charing Cross they could hold the train accordingly.

The Signaller can control moves from Waterloo East, but if the signalling is in SARS mode, it is automatic. If all platforms at Charing Cross are occupied, SARS will not set a route towards Charing Cross until one of those trains is signalled out of those platforms, this leaves the option to use any of the six platforms. Dropping the train up outside Charing Cross would limit the train to just three platforms. Holding a train a Waterloo East and then dropping it up to Charing Cross when its platform is due to be come free, does not delay it, nor delay the train behind. We have tested this on Simulators and there is no difference to holding the train at Waterloo East, or Charing Cross. If the train is at a stand outside Charing Cross, when it gets the road, it then needs to move from a stand once the route is cleared into its platform. If the train is held at Waterloo East, given the road as the train in the platform at Charing Cross it is heading for gets the road, by the time the train at Charing Cross has cleared the platform, the inbound train is still moving as the signal is given into the platform, so never stops. Hence it makes no difference. And with a simulator, a train starts as soon as it gets the signal, in reality there is a delay in the Driver noticing the signal and then moving.

Every train that sitting in the platform is delaying the one behind. Also, I don't want to be sitting in a platform down the line waiting for a clear run. If I'm sitting on a signal just outside the platform, when the platform clears, I'm in. If I'm at the previous platform sitting there waiting for a clear run, your just delaying the service for no reason. Shuffle everything up. If the train arrives at Charing Cross on time. Isn't that a good thing for the passenger ?



They don't need detailed levels of communication. There are various ways to simply see the train pathways. Internally we have a system and externally there are sites like opentraintimes that have visual maps.

Shuffling every train up is not the best option for passengers at Charing Cross. Holding trains at Waterloo East gives the option of six platforms at Charing Cross. Holding them outside Charing Cross reduces that option to three platforms, so if one does not depart, there could be an extended delay, and knock on affects to other trains whilst waiting for a platform to become free. Waiting at Waterloo East station, or waiting outside Charing Cross makes no difference in times. We have tested this on simulators, because SARS will hold trains at Waterloo East. And we have proved that if a train is heading for an occupied platform at Charing Cross, if we hold it at Waterloo East and give it the road at the same time the train on its platform at Charing Cross gets the road, the inbound train never stops and arrives quicker than one that is stopped outside Charing Cross. One held outside Charing Cross has to wait for the outbound train to clear poitwork before being signalled in, then having to start from a stand and enter the platform. On the simulator, the trains moves instantly, however in reality, it takes time for the driver to notice the signal change and then move from a stand, and often travels slower into the platform than they would if they had a clear run in.

Drivers see themselves away on Platforms A & D at Waterloo East. Staff on Platforms B & C have direct communication with signallers and a good working arrangement, as have all Southeastern Station staff & Controllers at Charing Cross, Cannon Street & London Bridge.

 

[43066]

Shuffling every train up is not the best option for passengers at Charing Cross. Holding trains at Waterloo East gives the option of six platforms at Charing Cross.

Holding every train at Waterloo east until its Charing + platform is vacated will reduce capacity and increase delays - a bad option for all concerned!

 

[LBMPSB]

I use the Bromley North / Grove Park to London Bridge train nearly daily; and today was the first day commuting in 2 weeks that I didn’t have delays. I’ve now got into the habit of always checking the trains before I leave the flat in case it’s messed up. Anecdotally, the service definitely seems a lot less reliable than before the timetable change. A lot of delays are blamed on signal problems - which given the line was shut a couple of summers ago for 10 days to replace the signalling system does seem odd. I thought the Orpington to London Bridge line had pretty modern digital signalling now?

The Signalling from Orpington to Elmstead Woods is controlled by Ashford IECC and is over 20 years old. The Signalling from Elmstead Woods to New Cross, despite a few modernised parts is essentially over forty years old and was recently recontrolled when sent to Three Bridges ROC when it migrated from London Bridge ASC. New WestCad control interface with existing equipment outside. The only resignalling occurred between New Cross and London Bridge.

Holding every train at Waterloo east until its Charing + platform is vacated will reduce capacity and increase delays - a bad option for all concerned!

I have to disagree, having signalled this area for 32 years, that is simply not the case.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I thought the signalling was renewed recently in the Grove Park area/Bromley North branch (?) Or was that just the signal heads?

 

[43066]

And we have proved that if a train is heading for an occupied platform at Charing Cross, if we hold it at Waterloo East and give it the road at the same time the train on its platform at Charing Cross gets the road, the inbound train never stops and arrives quicker than one that is stopped outside Charing Cross. One held outside Charing Cross has to wait for the outbound train to clear poitwork before being signalled in, then having to start from a stand and enter the platform. On the simulator, the trains moves instantly, however in reality, it takes time for the driver to notice the signal change and then move from a stand, and often travels slower into the platform than they would if they had a clear run in.

But a train held at WE prevents the next train from entering the platform (with a knock on effect back to London Bridge). Plus a train being held waiting for a green aspect will still have to be dispatched and start away from a stand.

As ever simulators likely can’t properly replicate what happens in real life.

I have to disagree, having signalled this area for 32 years, that is simply not the case.

I spent years driving trains in and out of Charing Cross, and the way things are done now makes complete sense to me having seen how it operates in practice. We will have to agree to disagree.

 

[Horizon22]

If all platforms at Charing Cross are occupied, SARS will not set a route towards Charing Cross until one of those trains is signalled out of those platforms, this leaves the option to use any of the six platforms. Dropping the train up outside Charing Cross would limit the train to just three platforms. Holding a train a Waterloo East and then dropping it up to Charing Cross when its platform is due to be come free, does not delay it, nor delay the train behind. We have tested this on Simulators and there is no difference to holding the train at Waterloo East, or Charing Cross. If the train is at a stand outside Charing Cross, when it gets the road, it then needs to move from a stand once the route is cleared into its platform. If the train is held at Waterloo East, given the road as the train in the platform at Charing Cross it is heading for gets the road, by the time the train at Charing Cross has cleared the platform, the inbound train is still moving as the signal is given into the platform, so never stops. Hence it makes no difference. And with a simulator, a train starts as soon as it gets the signal, in reality there is a delay in the Driver noticing the signal and then moving.


Shuffling every train up is not the best option for passengers at Charing Cross. Holding trains at Waterloo East gives the option of six platforms at Charing Cross. Holding them outside Charing Cross reduces that option to three platforms, so if one does not depart, there could be an extended delay, and knock on affects to other trains whilst waiting for a platform to become free. Waiting at Waterloo East station, or waiting outside Charing Cross makes no difference in times. We have tested this on simulators, because SARS will hold trains at Waterloo East. And we have proved that if a train is heading for an occupied platform at Charing Cross, if we hold it at Waterloo East and give it the road at the same time the train on its platform at Charing Cross gets the road, the inbound train never stops and arrives quicker than one that is stopped outside Charing Cross. One held outside Charing Cross has to wait for the outbound train to clear poitwork before being signalled in, then having to start from a stand and enter the platform. On the simulator, the trains moves instantly, however in reality, it takes time for the driver to notice the signal change and then move from a stand, and often travels slower into the platform than they would if they had a clear run in.

Drivers see themselves away on Platforms A & D at Waterloo East. Staff on Platforms B & C have direct communication with signallers and a good working arrangement, as have all Southeastern Station staff & Controllers at Charing Cross, Cannon Street & London Bridge.

As you say there is likely a good arrangement if needed between all staff. However you appear to be trying to resolve a problem that doesn’t really exist. In the peak this would cause delays. Also with a planned schedule why do you need to access all 6 platforms before departing Waterloo East? Changing platforms causes delays and potential conflicts arriving and departing Charing X so best to stick to booked platforms where possible and you can step a train forward and still change platforms - certainly between 1-3 and 4-6 anyway. As I said you don’t need to hold unless there’s a valid reason and as above, comms is probably very good between all involved so the signaller can then change their operation.

Station to station signalling is what you do during disruption on a metro route to prevent stranded trains.

ARS has been built in the way that it has to improve capacity. Theoretically under what you are say there would be 4 trains in section between London Bridge and a platform at Charing Cross; that would definitely be under capacity for peak. I have seen it (during disruption) back up all the way down towards Hither Green. ARS also ensures the conflicts for Ewer Street junction are kept to a minimum. As for “coming to a stand” outside Charing Cross, we’re not talking about a high line speed here and the impact would be seconds, not minutes.

 

[LBMPSB]

As you say there is likely a good arrangement if needed between all staff. However you appear to be trying to resolve a problem that doesn’t really exist. In the peak this would cause delays. Also with a planned schedule why do you need to access all 6 platforms before departing Waterloo East? Changing platforms causes delays and potential conflicts arriving and departing Charing X so best to stick to booked platforms where possible and you can step a train forward and still change platforms - certainly between 1-3 and 4-6 anyway. As I said you don’t need to hold unless there’s a valid reason and as above, comms is probably very good between all involved so the signaller can then change their operation.

Station to station signalling is what you do during disruption on a metro route to prevent stranded trains.

ARS has been built in the way that it has to improve capacity. Theoretically under what you are say there would be 4 trains in section between London Bridge and a platform at Charing Cross; that would definitely be under capacity for peak. I have seen it (during disruption) back up all the way down towards Hither Green. ARS also ensures the conflicts for Ewer Street junction are kept to a minimum. As for “coming to a stand” outside Charing Cross, we’re not talking about a high line speed here and the impact would be seconds, not minutes.

If there are empty platforms, but the platform for the inbound train is not vacant, the train would be dropped up to Charing Cross as there is spare options should its booked platform be unavailable. But if there isn't any spare platforms, the Signaller, or SARS, will hold the train at Waterloo East until the signal is set for the train to depart the platform at Charing Cross. From experience, trains have been held outside Charing Cross for a train to vacate its platform, only for there to be a missing driver, a fault on the train, passenger action etc., happens evey day, it then does not depart. The train outside then loses time waiting for the next avaiable platform, the platform that belongs to the train behind. Now a knock on delay starts. However if it was held at Waterloo East there was then an options to cross over to the other side for another available platform. It is about keeping options open and keeping trains moving. Delays build up so quickly in the Charing cross area if the Signaller is not prepared to be flexible with the workings. It doesn't cause delays working this way. I do it on a daily basis. Changing Platforms can cause delay if not done selectively, but I have and do, change platforms regularly to get trains in on time, it is like playing a game of chess, thinking several moves ahead all the time. Also trains are not necessarilly run up their booked lines from Ewer Street Jcn, they can and are crossed over at Belvedere Road Jcn, there are actually booked trains over this route in the present timetable. Booked platforms are kept if trains are on time, but as everyone who have ever travelled the route knows, that is very rare.

As for capacity retraints. Trains do not queue because the service generally alternates trains Up Charing Cross Slow (Plat B Waterloo E) and Up Charing Cross Fast (Plat D Waterloo E), designed to have parallel moves at Ewer Street Jcn with down services. Four trains between London Bridge and Waterloo East is the norm, anymore and they would all be at a stand. SARS (Signaller Assistant Route Setting, Hitachi equivalent of ARS) has no effect on capacity. It does what a signaller does using the existing signalling system and timetable schedules. The signalling system dictates the capacity. Some say that SARS sets routes quicker than a signaller, however a signaller will preset routes which SARS cannot do. Also SARS does not cope well with late running trains. And importantly is not intelligent, cannot think outside the parameters that have been programmed into it nor learn from experience.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I thought the signalling was renewed recently in the Grove Park area/Bromley North branch (?) Or was that just the signal heads?

Indeed wasn't Hither Green relocked as that was a Kent Coast Modernisation box bolted onto 1976 L.Bdg ASC.

 

[43066]

But if there isn't any spare platforms, the Signaller, or SARS, will hold the train at Waterloo East until the signal is set for the train to depart the platform at Charing Cross.

Sorry but I just checked Open Time Trains which has confirmed what I already knew: ie this isn’t what happens in practice.

A few moments ago a train was in WE platform B with the starter showing a proceed aspect (which would have been two yellows). The route was set to the signal controlling access to platforms 1 to 3. Each of those platforms was occupied, each of the starting signals was red, and none of the services had even been TRTSd.

EDIT: and I’ve just watched a train (2W70) enter platform D with a proceed aspect. That platform is self dispatch so there is nothing stopping that train departing towards Charing Cross, yet both 5 and 6 are occupied and the starters are on.