Southeastern Prosecution Letter

[verysilly123]

Hello. I am hoping you can help me.
I’ve made a terrible mistake and knowingly bought “sandwich “ tickets for 6 months..and got caught.
Last August I started buying single tickets from Tunbridge Wells to High Brooms to get me through the barriers and St John’s Wood to London Bridge. The Journey I was making was direct TBW to LB, not stopping at ST Johns Wood, 3 times a week in the mornings only, after work I got the correct ticket every time. I did this fare avoidance because I was struggling to pay the full amount each time, my husband was made redundant and we had nursery fees to pay as well, I wanted to reduce my train expenses..
I got caught by the Southeastern private investigator who has been following my journeys for months..they look at data and what stands out gets flagged. They caught me as I got off the train at LB one day.
I got pulled aside and they told me they know what I’ve been doing. I immediately burst into tears and had a panic attack. After all details were taken and I admitted to the offence, the guy said SE won’t take me to court as they rather get their money quickly as long as I cooperate, I will be asked to pay the money back.
I received the letter today saying they can provisionally prosecute.
Having read a few threads it seems some people did manage to settle this out of court, however my fine is closer to £1k so a lot more.
I am now petrified they will take me to court over the high amount.
Needless to say I have bought the correct ticket every day since and I regret what I did so very much.
Does anyone advise I go to a lawyer or just beg for forgiveness in a letter?
I know I’ve been an idiot so please, don’t tell me this again or judge. I just need some advice.
Thanks

 

[notmyrealname]

Hi.

Could you post the letter here please for people to have a look at? Cover up your name, address and any reference number.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@verysilly123. Welcome to the forum. If you are indeed able to negotiate a so-called "out of court" settlement, expect to have to pay the full, undiscounted Anytime Day Single from Tunbridge Wells to London with no allowance for the short fares paid. That's currently £23.80 per one way journey. (Was £22.70 before March 2024). Over a six month period, you might be talking some 70-80 journeys made. You'll know just how many.

The train company will then likely add on a three figure sum towards their investigation + admin costs. Reckon you'll be asked to stump up over £1,500 in total to resolve the matter, maybe £2,000. Not a fine as such, and you'll avoid any court conviction, which seems likely from what you've told us, if the matter did go to court.

If you wish, please upload a pic of the letter you've now received, with your name, address and any case reference number suitably covered up, or obscured.

 

[verysilly123]

So if I write a letter and admit to the mistake and that it hasn’t happened since, do I then just wait for a response and hope they settle out of court? Or can they turn around and tell me they will take me to court then it’s too late to get a lawyer? I really want to avoid charges

 

[Gloster]

One point: at the moment there is unlikely to be any advantage in consulting a solicitor, although there would be expense if you did. If you keep the forum advised it is likely that the experts will be able to advise you how to best give yourself a chance of getting an out of court settlement. However, nothing can be guaranteed, either by us or by a solicitor.

 

[Titfield]

Firstly do not panic about this. These cases can be resolved and whilst we can not guarantee a good outcome the worst outcome is never as bad as you imagine it to be.

When searching look for the advice @Hadders gives as this is considered to be the most appropriate advice.

His advice is usually:

It is important that you engage with and reply to this letter. You might want to include the following in your reply:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fares and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

South Eastern are within their rights to send the case to the Magistrates Court. However it is in their interests to offer an out of court settlement to people who co-operate with them and who haven't come to their attention before.

The fact they pulled you over makes me think that they know the extent of your wrong doing so it is probably advisable to come clean and provide full details of all the journeys you have made without paying the correct fare. You may wish to hedge your bets a little bit by saying that this is to the best of your knowledge in case they know of any other occasions of not paying the correct fare.

I presume you have booked these tickets online so you should be able to access your account to produce a complete list. They probably have got access to your account so they will be doing the same exercise.

Whilst you are under no obligation to incriminate yourself you would not wish SE to send this to the courts because they had not accepted the truthfulness of your statements to them in the letter you are going to write.

If you are offered a settlement expect to have to pay the full cost of the fares avoided plus an admin fee, which is normally around £150. You will need to be in a position to pay the settlement in full within a few days of it being offered. An out of court settlement might appear to be a fine, but it isn't and you won't have a criminal record as a result of accepting one. Note that only a court can impose a fine as a punishment upon conviction - you don't want to pay a fine, you want to pay a settlement!

If you post your reply on here (with personal details redacted) Forum Members can consider your reply and advise.

Do not include anything on here that may enable you to be identified as it is believed that Train Company staff peruse these forums.

You do not need to engage a lawyer at this stage. We will advise if the situation warrants that.

Do not use ChatGP or anything similar to write the response as it sounds insincere.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Or can they turn around and tell me they will take me to court then it’s too late to get a lawyer?

It's entirely up to you when you get a lawyer - neither the railway or the court can say 'it's too late - you can't have a lawyer now '. A lawyer might pull a face and say 'I wish you had come to me earlier ' but I have had plumbers do that too.

Our experience is that railway companies are often willing to settle out of court: people have said above how much money they might want, and my view is that the railway will also want to be reassured that you have learnt your lesson and won't fare dodge again. That means you explaining that you won't do it again, and if there are things you can do (buy a Railcard if one will help your journey, consider season tickets or return tickets) that demonstrate that you are following the rules, then it's worth doing that.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

You're in a spot of bother here but you can probably keep this out of court if you co-operate with Southeastern. They are normally one of the more pragmatic train companies to deal with when it comes to this sort of thing.

I would write a short, concise reply following my normal guidance which @Titfield has quoted above. If you post a draft copy of your reply in this thread forum members will be happy to proof read it for you.

It's up to you whether or not to use a solicitor. My view is a solicitor is not necessary this point - your case is straightforward although it does involve many journeys. A solicitor might be able to 'fast track' a case but that does come at a considerable cost as you have to pay theie fees in assition to the settlement cost. I would wait and see what Southeastern's response to your reply is, if it is unfavourable then that is the point at which I would be looking to engage a solicitor.

One final thing to note is that if you are offered a settlement then expect to have to pay the fares avoided at the full Anytime rate with no credit given for the tickets you did purchase. You will also need to pay an admin fee as well (typically around £150 but it is sometimes more). The settlement will need to be paid in full within a few days of it being offered.

 

[furlong]

St John’s Wood to London Bridge.

Was the ticket actually St. John's Wood (in North London) or St. John's that's near to London Bridge (and cheaper)?

 

[Brissle Girl]

Having read a few threads it seems some people did manage to settle this out of court, however my fine is closer to £1k so a lot more.

Just to be clear, the amount you think may come to around £1k is not a fine. The vast majority of it will be paying the fares that you should have paid in the first place (along with an as yet unknown administration cost).

A fine can only be issued by a court, which is obviously what you are trying to avoid.

Worth noting that if you are offered a settlement, you'll have to pay it very quickly, usually within 14 days, and it won't be negotiable. So think now where you will get that money from at short notice, as you've got a rough idea of the amount you are likely to need.

 

[verysilly123]

Thank you all for the reassurance given. I am attempting my first draft to the response here, and ask for your expert advice on the letter

Dear Prosecutions Officer at Southeastern

Thank you for the letter advising me of the authorisation to prosecute for the incident on Southeastern and for the opportunity to provide comments regarding this matter.

First of all, allow me to express my deepest apologies to Southeastern for the financial losses I have caused the company.

I admit that I had a significant error of judgement in not purchasing tickets in full for my journeys between Tunbridge Wells to London Terminals between August 2023 – March 2024. I believe this has occurred approximately 70 times. There are no excuses for my behaviour, but I can try to explain my situation. (note to this forum: I added a few sentences on my personal circumstances here which explains my situation)

I cut corners, which I never do, and in the end I got caught. I’m glad I did, I was in the wrong and now I am willing to pay the consequences.

As I am still the sole income provider in the family, I really cannot be at risk of losing my job. I would be extremely grateful if you would consider an out of court settlement and I am willing to pay in full every penny I owe Southeastern for the period I have avoided the full fares, plus administrative costs and any additional charges.

In order to demonstrate my determination of not letting this happen again, I have purchased the correct fares every single day since the incident at London Bridge which you can see in my account. I am deeply sorry for what I have done and vow to never make this error of judgement again.

I sincerely hope we can settle this quickly out of court, I am ready to make the full settlement payment and willing to collaborate fully and sincerely with Southeastern on this matter.

Yours sincerely

 

[Ducky88]

1. I wouldn't Thank them for sending you the letter,
2. There is no need to incriminate yourself but if you are going to state how many times you have offended then I would give them a spreadsheet of it, and not say approximately 70,
3. Don't bring personal circumstances into this, they don't care,
4. I suggest asking if they would consider settling out of court instead of jumping the gun,
5. Some parts of your letter doesn't sound sincere enough in my opinion, almost like you know they will settle. But you don't.

 

[verysilly123]

Thank you. How do I make this more sincere? I have asked if they would settle out of court, how can I add more sincerity?

 

[Ducky88]

'I sincerely hope we can settle this quickly out of court, I am ready to make the full settlement payment and willing to collaborate fully and sincerely with Southeastern on this matter.'

This is what i wrote: In light of the above, I wondered if it would be possible to settle this matter without having to go to court. I am prepared to pay any outstanding fare and your administration costs in dealing with this matter and I hope my desire to settle will be sincerely considered.

Perhaps you will write it differently, but you need to persuade them to settle and not assume they will settle, because there is always a chance that they won't and that is well within their right to decide.

 

[verysilly123]

I appreciate the amendments, thank you. Do you think it’s best to hand write it or printed paper is fine? My writing isn’t the best!

 

[island]

I appreciate the amendments, thank you. Do you think it’s best to hand write it or printed paper is fine? My writing isn’t the best!

Definitely print it. Sign at the bottom.

 

[Greyman1]

Don't panic.

Just be honest in your reply and communicate with SE in a business ike manner. They are likely to just want their unpaid fares recouped and z charge for their investigation.

Just to clarify you were physically stopped by one of their Investigator?
Out of interest were they like with you? You read all these forum entries of some staff that are pretty bad.

I hope you get it sorted, keep us updated.

 

[verysilly123]

Thank you for your message.
Yes, I was physically stopped at LB station. 3 guys got off my train and stopped me and just 1 stayed to go through everything with me. They have been watching my journey and waited for me at TW station and got on my train. They had the details of all the journeys I made. They were scary at first but once they realised how terrified I was they calmed down. The final guy was actually really nice, calmed me down too and was genuine. He told me this happens thousands of times and told me to cooperate fully. I’m actually glad I did get caught tbh so now I just hope they will agree to settle. I will sent the letter today and keep this thread updated

 

[superkopite]

It might not be totally relevant, but where were you buying your tickets from?

 

[verysilly123]

I bought them all online on my SE app as digital tickets. Apparently it gets flagged in their system if someone buys a ticket away from their home address..makes sense. So yeah, very silly of me. The guy who caught me said if I bought paper tickets they would have never known

 

[superkopite]

The guy who caught me said if I bought paper tickets they would have never known

Haha, teaching you the tricks of the trade, how strange

 

[verysilly123]

Hello everyone. Very pleased to say that SE accepted my out of court settlement plea and I’ve just paid the amount I owed them plus £265 admin fee. Very relieved and safe to say I will never be make this stupid decision ever again! Thanks for your help

 

[Haywain]

Good to hear that you have got a satisfactory result.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Hello everyone. Very pleased to say that SE accepted my out of court settlement plea and I’ve just paid the amount I owed them plus £265 admin fee. Very relieved and safe to say I will never be make this stupid decision ever again! Thanks for your help

Thanks for letting us know: it's useful for when other people ask us about similar problems.

 

[hardyjoe]

Hello. I am hoping you can help me.
I’ve made a terrible mistake and knowingly bought “sandwich “ tickets for 6 months..and got caught.
Last August I started buying single tickets from Tunbridge Wells to High Brooms to get me through the barriers and St John’s Wood to London Bridge. The Journey I was making was direct TBW to LB, not stopping at ST Johns Wood, 3 times a week in the mornings only, after work I got the correct ticket every time. I did this fare avoidance because I was struggling to pay the full amount each time, my husband was made redundant and we had nursery fees to pay as well, I wanted to reduce my train expenses..
I got caught by the Southeastern private investigator who has been following my journeys for months..they look at data and what stands out gets flagged. They caught me as I got off the train at LB one day.
I got pulled aside and they told me they know what I’ve been doing. I immediately burst into tears and had a panic attack. After all details were taken and I admitted to the offence, the guy said SE won’t take me to court as they rather get their money quickly as long as I cooperate, I will be asked to pay the money back.
I received the letter today saying they can provisionally prosecute.
Having read a few threads it seems some people did manage to settle this out of court, however my fine is closer to £1k so a lot more.
I am now petrified they will take me to court over the high amount.
Needless to say I have bought the correct ticket every day since and I regret what I did so very much.
Does anyone advise I go to a lawyer or just beg for forgiveness in a letter?
I know I’ve been an idiot so please, don’t tell me this again or judge. I just need some advice.
Thanks

I got a letter very similar to this about a year and a half ago. I ignored that letter as I saw it as them fishing/trying to get me to panic/give them grounds to fine. Another one was sent a few months later offering me a settlement of £180 (approx) so that they would not pursue a prosecution. I also ignored this one. I know they couldn't/wouldn't pursue a prosecution without locating me.

That was a year ago and I haven't heard anything since. I no longer live at that address and they have no proof that I ever received the letters. They haven't sent any more. I suppose there's a chance they'll come knocking but I think it's unlikely. They probably send hundreds of these letters hoping people just pay their fines and don't make them chase.

 

[AlterEgo]

I got a letter very similar to this about a year and a half ago. I ignored that letter as I saw it as them fishing/trying to get me to panic/give them grounds to fine. Another one was sent a few months later offering me a settlement of £180 (approx) so that they would not pursue a prosecution. I also ignored this one. I know they couldn't/wouldn't pursue a prosecution without locating me.

That was a year ago and I haven't heard anything since. I no longer live at that address and they have no proof that I ever received the letters. They haven't sent any more. I suppose there's a chance they'll come knocking but I think it's unlikely. They probably send hundreds of these letters hoping people just pay their fines and don't make them chase.

The bad news for you is that ignoring the letters has likely resulted in a prosecution in your absence - that is the default resolution for this. They don't need proof you received any letters. If they don't hear from you, they launch a private prosecution in the magistrates' court.

The next step for you, given you have gone away from that address and won't get any correspondence, is likely to be your employer telling you of an attachment order to your salary to pay your court fine. That can take a couple of years from conviction, but they will locate you. This will be done by the court, not by Southeastern.

 

[hardyjoe]

The bad news for you is that ignoring the letters has likely resulted in a prosecution in your absence - that is the default resolution for this. They don't need proof you received any letters. If they don't hear from you, they launch a private prosecution in the magistrates' court.

The next step for you, given you have gone away from that address and won't get any correspondence, is likely to be your employer telling you of an attachment order to your salary to pay your court fine. That can take a couple of years from conviction, but they will locate you. This will be done by the court, not by Southeastern.

The word "likely" is doing some heavy lifting there. I live in Norway now. So good luck to them!

 

[AlterEgo]

The word "likely" is doing some heavy lifting there. I live in Norway now. So good luck to them!

That doesn't sound like especially useful advice to the OP, and for whatever reason you have decided to identify yourself on a forum Southeastern read daily. It is often better to learn when to keep quiet. You are less anonymous on the internet than you probably think you are.

Edit: I've seen you have edited your posts - I suggest you contact the moderators to change your username.

 

[island]

All I'd say is avoid the UK on your travels. If a criminal case has been taken against you in your absence and found proven, it is liable to eventually escalate into an arrest warrant which is likely to pop up when UK Border Force scan your passport.

 

[Titfield]

The bad news for you is that ignoring the letters has likely resulted in a prosecution in your absence - that is the default resolution for this. They don't need proof you received any letters. If they don't hear from you, they launch a private prosecution in the magistrates' court.

The next step for you, given you have gone away from that address and won't get any correspondence, is likely to be your employer telling you of an attachment order to your salary to pay your court fine. That can take a couple of years from conviction, but they will locate you. This will be done by the court, not by Southeastern.

I worked for a company based in North West London. We expanded quite rapidly and took on a number of new employees, many of whom had shall we say a long cv changing jobs fairly frequently. After about a year or so we started getting a few attachment of earnings orders for employees who had ignored letters re unpaid parking fines etc etc which had caught up with them about 2 years plus after the initial event.

I dont doubt that some get away with not paying but some do get caught up with years after the event.