Southeastern stock options for next operator

47802

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I hate to moan, but it seems absolutely ridiculous that on this forum we are seriously suggesting replacing trains that aren't even 15 years old whereas on some parts of the network trains of 40+ years of age are doing absolutely fine, and in other places electrification projects are being cancelled meaning they are stuck with dirty old DMU's. This mentality of ordering new stock every time a new franchisee takes over is utterly ridiculous (some European countries still run stock from the 60's with no problem) , not to mention an absolute waste of decent trains and rather harmful to the railway in terms of spending. I'm sure many people who come from areas where infrastructure upgrades are badly needed would love to hear why money isn't being spent on them, but instead on replacing still-fairly-young trains!
Hogwash, if the next franchise operator can get trains which offer a better business case, are more reliable and cheaper to run etc then why shouldn't they, replace the entire lot if it makes sense, and frankly it doesn't matter if the trains are 2 years old or 50 years old.

This business oh this trains only 20 years old its could last another 20 years blah blah utterly pathetic, the railways are coming out of period vast underinvestment where in many cases the trains have had to last until they were falling apart but I see no reason why that situation has to be continued.

Diesels are being made to last longer than they should because the way ahead was meant to be electric but obviously that position is now having to be re thought.
 
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rebmcr

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Like new cars and new phones, the life cycle of things is becoming very short.
If it's not brand new, it's no good.
Nonsense. Carphone Warehouse are issuing profit warnings and closing almost 100 stores because people are now tending to hold onto handsets for longer.
 

dyche02

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As a commuter, being packed into a 465 at rush hour in summer with no air-conditioning is not pleasant in the slightest. It would be just about bearable if there was space but given that the nearest person is usually either touching me or within a few cm of me that is never the case. I guarantee 99% of the people who actually commute on these would gladly welcome new trains with aircon and more space to stand. I don't see the problem with rail company improving the conditions for commuters, in fact this is what many feel they pay good money for.
 

hwl

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I do see both sides of the argument. But I agree too. I use 455/707/458/456's daily and I have my preferences, but only as a rail enthusiast. As a commuter, I couldn't care less, providing it turns up on time. After a day at work I flop down on to a 455 just as happily as a 707. I don't see why the Networkers should go.
The reliability of networkers in terms of MTIN is about 1/6 of typical desiros or electostars and the new stock needs significantly less maintenance than networkers thus reducing costs and enabling more replacement stock to be procurred while utilising existing depots. More stabling would be needed but that is cheaper than depot capacity especially when SE is maxed out on depot space and the tender specifies increasing stock.
You would care if you knew that train lenghtening and preventing journey times increasing due to worsening dwell times were largely predicted by new stock especially making it cheaper.
 

Class 466

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Here’s how I see things going-

Networkers - Replaced by 700 equivalents or other metro stock. Won’t be Aventras as the timescales for when this stock needs to be introduced aren’t compatible with the long backlog at Derby already. Stagecoach will get some Alstom built device given they’re in partnership with them.

376s - Possible refurb up to mainline standards to replace the few 465/9s on mainline work (about 10 diagrams a day) and the horrendously unreliable 377/5s. (Note 377s aren’t maintained by SE- just subleased from GTR).

375s- refurbished and augmented by an extra fleet to cover the huge uplift in services mandated.

377s- See above.

395s - retained, but definitely need more HS stock. The crowding now on some services is already bad enough let alone in 7 years time!

707/458s? - they could well come to mainline work - unless the winner ordered Desiro City’s then I can see the 707s being reformed to make up longer units.

I hope to god 458/5s don’t come here - they’re blooming awful units.
 

Class465fan

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Here’s how I see things going-

Networkers - Replaced by 700 equivalents or other metro stock. Won’t be Aventras as the timescales for when this stock needs to be introduced aren’t compatible with the long backlog at Derby already. Stagecoach will get some Alstom built device given they’re in partnership with them.

376s - Possible refurb up to mainline standards to replace the few 465/9s on mainline work (about 10 diagrams a day) and the horrendously unreliable 377/5s. (Note 377s aren’t maintained by SE- just subleased from GTR).

375s- refurbished and augmented by an extra fleet to cover the huge uplift in services mandated.

377s- See above.

395s - retained, but definitely need more HS stock. The crowding now on some services is already bad enough let alone in 7 years time!

707/458s? - they could well come to mainline work - unless the winner ordered Desiro City’s then I can see the 707s being reformed to make up longer units.

I hope to god 458/5s don’t come here - they’re blooming awful units.
What's wrong with the 458s?
 

NorthKent1989

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Seriously? More new trains? Why? The current trains we have works perfectly alright, just need a clean up in the interior (especially the networkers).
I agree, there’s nothing wrong with 465’s at all, it’s two decades of mismanagement that has failed the networker stock in the south east, clean them up inside Andy out and they can run for another thirty to forty years to come!
 

NorthKent1989

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Here’s how I see things going-

Networkers - Replaced by 700 equivalents or other metro stock. Won’t be Aventras as the timescales for when this stock needs to be introduced aren’t compatible with the long backlog at Derby already. Stagecoach will get some Alstom built device given they’re in partnership with them.

376s - Possible refurb up to mainline standards to replace the few 465/9s on mainline work (about 10 diagrams a day) and the horrendously unreliable 377/5s. (Note 377s aren’t maintained by SE- just subleased from GTR).

375s- refurbished and augmented by an extra fleet to cover the huge uplift in services mandated.

377s- See above.

395s - retained, but definitely need more HS stock. The crowding now on some services is already bad enough let alone in 7 years time!

707/458s? - they could well come to mainline work - unless the winner ordered Desiro City’s then I can see the 707s being reformed to make up longer units.

I hope to god 458/5s don’t come here - they’re blooming awful units.
No to the 700’s the seats alone are off putting, they’re cattle trucks
 

D365

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... clean them up inside Andy out and they can run for another thirty to forty years to come!
Under the solebar too? The GEC-Alsthom units in particular are mechanically obsolete.

Bearing in mind the existing SWR stock doesn’t meet the metro specification stipulated in the new franchise, and the next Kent franchise is likely to have a similar requirement; surely all the shortlisted bidders will be proposing brand new stock?
 

Mikey C

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Here’s how I see things going-

Networkers - Replaced by 700 equivalents or other metro stock. Won’t be Aventras as the timescales for when this stock needs to be introduced aren’t compatible with the long backlog at Derby already. Stagecoach will get some Alstom built device given they’re in partnership with them.

376s - Possible refurb up to mainline standards to replace the few 465/9s on mainline work (about 10 diagrams a day) and the horrendously unreliable 377/5s. (Note 377s aren’t maintained by SE- just subleased from GTR).

375s- refurbished and augmented by an extra fleet to cover the huge uplift in services mandated.

377s- See above.

395s - retained, but definitely need more HS stock. The crowding now on some services is already bad enough let alone in 7 years time!

707/458s? - they could well come to mainline work - unless the winner ordered Desiro City’s then I can see the 707s being reformed to make up longer units.

I hope to god 458/5s don’t come here - they’re blooming awful units.
I can't see the 376s being converted to mainline standard, they're too different. 75mph, sliding doors, no aircon and completely different interior.

Maybe they can be used elsewhere in the country with a pantograph added? Or converted to diesel/battery/hydrogen/whatever power, as that seems to be the fashion at the moment :D
 

4-SUB 4732

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The 458s ‘as-built’, or before they were b**tardised, would have been extremely welcome down here on workings to places like Tunbridge Wells, Sole Street stoppers etc.

In their current form, but most importantly because of the absolute state of them with their corrosion etc they are massively unwelcome.
 

whhistle

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Nonsense. Carphone Warehouse are issuing profit warnings and closing almost 100 stores because people are now tending to hold onto handsets for longer.
No... it isn't nonsense.
If newer trains wern't financially better in the long run, no company is going to go for it.
I'll message you though.
 

Mikey C

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Class 466

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Interesting that all 3 bidders have teamed up with rolling stock manufacturers, I don't recall Bombardier linking up with First (for example) before the SWR bid.

I'm not sure where the boundary between the AT100 and AT200 lies!
I had a feeling Govia would - given the good working relationship they have with Hitachi currently on SE. For those that don't know what the AT100 looks like: http://hitachirail-eu.com/products/our-trains/at100-metro
 

Mikey C

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I had a feeling Govia would - given the good working relationship they have with Hitachi currently on SE. For those that don't know what the AT100 looks like: http://hitachirail-eu.com/products/our-trains/at100-metro
Interesting that neither of the 2 biggest suppliers Bombardier and Siemens are in the running for this contract. Indeed it's surprising that Stagecoach are teamed up with Alstom rather than Siemens (even if they will soon become one company), given the failure of the 458s and the success of the 450s, and subsequent order for 707s for SWT. Especially as Alstom haven't supplied a new UK train (other than the additional 390s) for a long time now.
 

southern442

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Hogwash, if the next franchise operator can get trains which offer a better business case, are more reliable and cheaper to run etc then why shouldn't they, replace the entire lot if it makes sense, and frankly it doesn't matter if the trains are 2 years old or 50 years old. This business oh this trains only 20 years old its could last another 20 years blah blah utterly pathetic, the railways are coming out of period vast underinvestment where in many cases the trains have had to last until they were falling apart but I see no reason why that situation has to be continued.
In that post I was referring more to the idea of replacing the 376's, but my point still stands. If we are going to start chucking money at the railways we should at least spend it in places that need it first, rather than just saying 'ooh it would be nice to have some trains that look newer so let's get some of those'.

Yes, some of the stock being replaced would soon be coming to the end of their lives soon. Others are not the most reliable or comfortable. However plenty more (360s, 379's, 376's, I could go on) still have plenty of life left in them. This is a prime example of money being wasted on replacing perfectly good trains, whereas there are some rail projects elsewhere that are far, far more urgent and need all the money they can get. Tbh in my opinion even something like re-connecting the Loughborough Gap is more urgent than replacing some of the trains that now have an uncertain future. Not only that but it really doesn't help the Northern Powerhouse image - that's 3 operators in the south east that are having massive new fleets whereas we have seen cancellations of electrification projects up north. It's a somewhat simplified and over-used piece of rhetoric here but in the public eye that's all they will see.

Not to mention the fact that money was spent fitting new traction motors to the 455's, 317's and 321's, for the sole purpose of extending their life. That has now gone to waste.
 
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hwl

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The Hitachi letter quotes 800 cars as the potential order size.

The current networker fleet is 674cars
and the combined networker and 376 fleet is 854 cars with infrastructure limiting things to 20m cars.

So are we looking at complete networker replacement with retention of the 376s?

Thoughts?
 

Domh245

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Do bear in mind that 34 trains (136 vehicles) of the networker fleet are 465/9s and so wouldn't really be likely to be replaced by new metro stock. 800 vehicles would replace the metro networkers and 376s and provide for growth. The 465/9s are more likely to be replaced by new build/cascaded mainline stock, maybe the 30 379s which are currently due to go off lease from GA (which are similar to their current mainline stock) would be a good fit, especially as we saw from the Arriva tender a couple of weeks ago that they are looking to procure new EMUs for the Corby services.
 

Class 466

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The Hitachi letter quotes 800 cars as the potential order size.

The current networker fleet is 674cars
and the combined networker and 376 fleet is 854 cars with infrastructure limiting things to 20m cars.

So are we looking at complete networker replacement with retention of the 376s?

Thoughts?
If you subtract the 20 odd 465/9s that still work on the mainline (given they will need replacing by something more 'mainline' than an AT100). You could actually replace both with that 800 vehicle figure.

I can see another order for a mainline fleet in there as well to replace 465/9s and supplement 375s (given the 4tph between TON & AFK will need even more stock than current).
 

Mikey C

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What was the logic of buying the 376s in the first place and converting some 465s to mainline use, for which they aren't especially suitable, instead of buying more 375s?

It's not as if the 376s are kept to certain routes, and it just confused things for the passenger with a many stations 5 car 376s stopping at one of the platform, and 4 cars 465s at the other end...
 

hwl

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If you subtract the 20 odd 465/9s that still work on the mainline (given they will need replacing by something more 'mainline' than an AT100). You could actually replace both with that 800 vehicle figure.

I can see another order for a mainline fleet in there as well to replace 465/9s and supplement 375s (given the 4tph between TON & AFK will need even more stock than current).
Aren't most of the 465/9s now on metro use with the 377/5 introduction?

I've seem quite a few /9s on Victoria - Orpington
 

Class 466

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Aren't most of the 465/9s now on metro use with the 377/5 introduction?

I've seem quite a few /9s on Victoria - Orpington
Since the May TT change their Mainline usage has increased once more. (since Jan 2018) 16 units a day are required for CHX - TBW when you include the 3tph in the peaks. 2 for VIC - MDE in the peaks and 6 more for Chatham Mainline work (3 off peak) so they certainly still are about.
 

4-SUB 4732

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Saw a 465/9 on an Orpington - Vic stopper and then another up from Gillingham; and a ‘real’ 465 at Faversham today. The ‘real’ BREL/ABB ones to Margate in the summer is always a treat!
 

LiftFan

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It strikes me as odd how the TOCs have been using their stock... SWR replacing the brand new 707s yet deciding to use 442s, Northern taking on the aged 319s with others being converted to 769s and a lot of these mid-life EMUs being made redundant with no new home. Not to mention Southern still uses the oldest EMUs in the country on the Coastway route and multiple electrification schemes have been pushed to the side so the north and the west country are having to use pacers and sprinters (albeit with much more comfortable seats than the south east ironing boards).
 

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