Southeastern - Timetable change

[Trainlog]

Very annoying as it causes it to miss the hourly down Javelin at SOO by a couple of minutes.

That is pretty much the pain of getting that connection. The minute you see at Maidstone West the train is late by 3 mins you do pretty much accept that you wont get the Javelin eastbound at Strood. If you are on time you have to go through the gauntlet of the Strood subway asap to get to platform 1, and this isn't easy as there is often commuters that walk really slow to leave the station so it often means you have about 30s if you are lucky. You are even more lucky if the Javelin itself is delayed by a couple of minutes as it means your connection is easy.

One thing that a lot of commuters don't realize is that your tickets are valid on the Javelin at Maidstone West in the morning if you need the NKML at Strood. The bad part is that there is often a wait of 15mins at Strood for anything Eastbound (I know 15mins is Peanuts for train waiting times but Strood isn't an interesting station) but seeming as the Electrostar service gets slightly busy until New Hythe, its not a bad way to start commuting in the morning as there is plenty of space on the Javelin.

 

[Barn]

Whatever the economics, it just seems incompetently done.

On the North Kent line:

- Trains from London Bridge via Lewisham are overtaken by later trains via Greenwich

- The Rainham service is a slow all stations crawl from Dartford whilst the shorter Gravesend service calls only at Greenhithe

- Historic connections to Abbey Wood destroyed at the moment they become useful

 

[30907]

Whatever the economics, it just seems incompetently done.

On the North Kent line:

- Trains from London Bridge via Lewisham are overtaken by later trains via Greenwich

Agree - at least its only in one direction

- The Rainham service is a slow all stations crawl from Dartford whilst the shorter Gravesend service calls only at Greenhithe.

That's not new, though.

- Historic connections to Abbey Wood destroyed at the moment they become useful

It's not that long since the Crayford Spur service was introduced - 20 years perhaps? - so historic is stretching a point! Did it carry any number of passengers?

 

[Barn]

Agree - at least its only in one direction

That's not new, though.

It's not that long since the Crayford Spur service was introduced - 20 years perhaps? - so historic is stretching a point! Did it carry any number of passengers?

Gravesend terminators might not be new but they're new to the North Kent and thus were a chance (albeit by industry generally rather than just Southeastern) to sort out a good semi-fast service for Medway rather than the odd mix.

I don't think the loop has previously been particularly well used, and I think there may have been negative easements which made it difficult. It's just ironic that it goes at the very moment it becomes useful!

 

[NorthKent1989]

Southeastern are just using the Elizabeth line as some sort of magic bullet to all their issues, all the while using Lewisham Junction as an excuse to roll out it’s worse timetable since the 1990s.

Yet they have severed connections to Abbey Wood from the Sidcup line which has been a regular feature on the timetable for over twenty years, the rounders via Bexleyheath should have been dropped since there’s more options to reach Abbey Wood and Woolwich by way of several bus routes from Barnehurst, Bexleyheath and Welling, which will be far quicker than using the rounders.

The new Cannon Street to Gravesend via Woolwich service is tediously slow and as Barn says is now much slower than the via Greenwich services picking up air at New Cross and St. John’s.

Also very weird that the Gravesend service is fast after Dartford but not fast from London Bridge to Lewisham, stranger that the Thameslink service which runs further out to Medway calls at the stops missed out by the shorter Gravesend service.

The Greenwich line has a 23 minute gap between trains, despite it being 4tph thats nearly the frequency of 2tph as it was back in the 1990s & 2000s.

No matter what Southeastern say they haven’t thought this through and instead of a reliable service they said this timetable would bring it’s only made journeys more awkward and much slower.

If people didn’t switch to the Elizabeth line before they will have done so now! Totally counterproductive to cut trains because of fewer passengers to then install a timetable that will further drive passengers away.

Gravesend terminators might not be new but they're new to the North Kent and thus were a chance (albeit by industry generally rather than just Southeastern) to sort out a good semi-fast service for Medway rather than the odd mix.

I don't think the loop has previously been particularly well used, and I think there may have been negative easements which made it difficult. It's just ironic that it goes at the very moment it becomes useful!

The Gravesend service pattern seems to be a left over from the old CHX to Gillingham semi fasts, which the VIC to Gravesend via Bexleyheath service then picked up, which again was weird at the time because the Sidcup fasts which were much lauded as being the best thing ever called at the stops in between.

 

[SE%Traveller]

Could they not run out from Charing Cross via Sidcup and in to Cannon Street via Woolwich?

The Gravesend service pattern seems to be a left over from the old CHX to Gillingham semi fasts, which the VIC to Gravesend via Bexleyheath service then picked up, which again was weird at the time because the Sidcup fasts which were much lauded as being the best thing ever called at the stops in between.

IIRC one of the reasons given for going to Victoria was to make that route self contained, ie not worked by anything out of Cannon St or Charing Cross.

 

[Class 466]

The Gravesend service pattern seems to be a left over from the old CHX to Gillingham semi fasts, which the VIC to Gravesend via Bexleyheath service then picked up, which again was weird at the time because the Sidcup fasts which were much lauded as being the best thing ever called at the stops in between.

The reason the Sidcup fasts called all stations south of Dartford was to give those intermediate stations a faster service to London.

 

[NorthKent1989]

The reason the Sidcup fasts called all stations south of Dartford was to give those intermediate stations a faster service to London.

That’s makes sense as at the time the Sidcup route was fast from New Eltham to London Bridge, but that service hasn’t returned nor is it likely to.

IIRC one of the reasons given for going to Victoria was to make that route self contained, ie not worked by anything out of Cannon St or Charing Cross.

Stupid question I know but in what what could the VIC to Gravesend via Bexleyheath be self contained when it intersects with other routes (again sorry if this is a stupid question)

 

[30907]

Yet they have severed connections to Abbey Wood from the Sidcup line which has been a regular feature on the timetable for over twenty years, the rounders via Bexleyheath should have been dropped since there’s more options to reach Abbey Wood and Woolwich by way of several bus routes from Barnehurst, Bexleyheath and Welling, which will be far quicker than using the rounders.

I assume the number of trains per hour on each route is broadly in line with demand, even if lower than pre-covid?
The options then are:
1. the Bexleyheath rounder becomes a Dartford Loop one - consequently Bexleyheath gets another Dartford service and the Loop loses one.
2. the Bexleyheath rounder remains and there is an all-day Loop rounder - consequently Belvedere, Erith and Slade Green lose their offpeak Dartford service and the Loop loses of its Dartfords.
I doubt this would be an overall benefit to passengers, especially option 2, even if it were possible to timetable either, but you would need to show it.

The new Cannon Street to Gravesend via Woolwich service is tediously slow and as Barn says is now much slower than the via Greenwich services picking up air at New Cross and St. John’s.

It provides part of a 4tph service NWX-LEW, which seems a reasonable provision, given the interchange with LO - I agree its Down path is poor though.

Stupid question I know but in what what could the VIC to Gravesend via Bexleyheath be self contained when it intersects with other routes (again sorry if this is a stupid question).

Self-contained as in not inter-working with other routes.

 

[NorthKent1989]

It provides part of a 4tph service NWX-LEW, which seems a reasonable provision, given the interchange with LO - I agree its Down path is poor though.

The interchange for LO at New Cross is a bit redundant for pretty much every one east of New Cross though, since there is the DLR, Jubilee and Elizabeth lines that reach the Docklands much quicker.

 

[SE%Traveller]

Stupid question I know but in what what could the VIC to Gravesend via Bexleyheath be self contained when it intersects with other routes (again sorry if this is a stupid question)

Sorry i wasn't very clear i meant self contained in respect to trains rather than lines (which as you illustrate it is decidedly not) , i did remember where i read it though, London Reconnections: Kent Route Study: Victoria Dartford

"In the proposed timetable for May 2018 there is the rather imaginative proposal to extend off-peak service from Dartford to Gravesend calling only at Greenhithe (for Bluewater). This means that the line can be run both peak and off-peak with five dedicated trains. In the morning peak hour it is currently possible to run a service that is slightly better than half-hourly by utilising the a train returning from London on a different service from Cannon Street to provide an train to fill a slot where a gap would otherwise occur. A similar thing happens in reverse in the evening peak. This is clever and efficient but does reduce resilience as the service now becomes dependent on other services and can be affected by any delays at London Bridge. The proposed timetable with its captive fleet of trains eliminates the need for such dependency."

 

[Bikeman78]

The Greenwich line has a 23 minute gap between trains, despite it being 4tph thats nearly the frequency of 2tph as it was back in the 1990s & 2000s.

Similar story from London Bridge towards Sidcup. Four trains per hour but only eight minutes apart leaving 22 minute gaps. The second train omits Lewisham, so they are only five or six minutes apart from Hither Green.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Sorry i wasn't very clear i meant self contained in respect to trains rather than lines (which as you illustrate it is decidedly not) , i did remember where i read it though, London Reconnections: Kent Route Study: Victoria Dartford

"In the proposed timetable for May 2018 there is the rather imaginative proposal to extend off-peak service from Dartford to Gravesend calling only at Greenhithe (for Bluewater). This means that the line can be run both peak and off-peak with five dedicated trains. In the morning peak hour it is currently possible to run a service that is slightly better than half-hourly by utilising the a train returning from London on a different service from Cannon Street to provide an train to fill a slot where a gap would otherwise occur. A similar thing happens in reverse in the evening peak. This is clever and efficient but does reduce resilience as the service now becomes dependent on other services and can be affected by any delays at London Bridge. The proposed timetable with its captive fleet of trains eliminates the need for such dependency."

Ah thanks for explaining it, makes sense now.

Similar story from London Bridge towards Sidcup. Four trains per hour but only eight minutes apart leaving 22 minute gaps. The second train omits Lewisham, so they are only five or six minutes apart from Hither Green.

And Albany Park is 2tph on the Sidcup line too, very bizarrely put timetable.

 

[steamybrian]

I have just noticed that on Mondays to Fridays the last train leaves Charing Cross at approx 2310......!
........Yet trains from Cannon Street run until after midnight.
In my memory stretching back to long ago in BR days I cannot remember trains from Cannon Street running later in the evening than Charing Cross.
Any reasons..?

 

[Stephen42]

I have just noticed that on Mondays to Fridays the last train leaves Charing Cross at approx 2310......!
........Yet trains from Cannon Street run until after midnight.
In my memory stretching back to long ago in BR days I cannot remember trains from Cannon Street running later in the evening than Charing Cross.
Any reasons..?

Can't remember exactly when it was brought in, but recent timetables have had Charing Cross and Cannon Street closing early on different days of the week. This provides better engineering access opportunities. The last train from London Bridge is typically the 0059 to Orpington, Tuesday/Wednesday morning the service starts 0054 Cannon Street and Thursday/Friday/Saturday morning its the 0050 Charing Cross. On Friday night/Saturday morning both terminals are open though most routes go from Charing Cross.

 

[Gerard92]

I have just noticed that on Mondays to Fridays the last train leaves Charing Cross at approx 2310......!
........Yet trains from Cannon Street run until after midnight.
In my memory stretching back to long ago in BR days I cannot remember trains from Cannon Street running later in the evening than Charing Cross.
Any reasons..?

Every Monday / Tuesday nights no trains run to/from Charing Cross and every Wednesday / Thursday nights no trains run to/from Cannon Street due to engineering works

This has been on going for almost a year now

 

[steamybrian]

Every Monday / Tuesday nights no trains run to/from Charing Cross and every Wednesday / Thursday nights no trains run to/from Cannon Street due to engineering works

This has been on going for almost a year now

Thanks very much to you and Stephen42. It is the first time I have noticed it .

 

[Class 466]

Every Monday / Tuesday nights no trains run to/from Charing Cross and every Wednesday / Thursday nights no trains run to/from Cannon Street due to engineering works

This has been on going for almost a year now

It's actually been the case since 2018, people have just never really noticed.

 

[JackTheLad]

Ah thanks for explaining it, makes sense now.



And Albany Park is 2tph on the Sidcup line too, very bizarrely put timetable.

Interestingly Albany Park had 6 southbound trains per hour for the last few nights between midnight and 1am, and 5tph between 11pm and midnight... which means currently it gets a way better service in the late evenings than it does in the busy part of the day.

The Cannon St rounders are a big loss for the Sidcup line, as well as the retained up until this december evening peak pre covid semi fasts to CHX which would only call at Crayford, Bexley, Sidcup, New Eltham, then fast to London Bridge (which since 2018 ran all day monday to saturday but reduced to peak only, after the pandemic)

I for one agree with others on here that LBG is not an easy change. The escalators are long and get extremeley congested with often a queue to get on them. A footbridge like before or a mezzanine level for changing would've prevented this.

I remember a better service in the late 90s when Cannon St started to be open full time, pretty much doubling the frequency to London on most lines that would otherwise only operate in to Charing Cross. IMO the new timetable (especially on Metro routes) is a farce and very short sighted especially with the likes of Lewisham, Kidbrooke, Deptford, Greenwich all seeing huge resedential towers and massive developements which have been finished during the pandemic.

 

[Bikeman78]

I for one agree with others on here that LBG is not an easy change. The escalators are long and get extremeley congested with often a queue to get on them. A footbridge like before or a mezzanine level for changing would've prevented this.

Agreed. Stand on the right doesn't seem to apply in the way that it does on the underground. I normally leg it up or down the stairs because hardly anyone else uses them, but they get congested sometimes as well. I certainly wouldn't risk a five minute connection. I think that is still the official minimum interchange time.

 

[miklcct]

Agreed. Stand on the right doesn't seem to apply in the way that it does on the underground. I normally leg it up or down the stairs because hardly anyone else uses them, but they get congested sometimes as well. I certainly wouldn't risk a five minute connection. I think that is still the official minimum interchange time.

The official interchange time at London Bridge is 10 minutes.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Interestingly Albany Park had 6 southbound trains per hour for the last few nights between midnight and 1am, and 5tph between 11pm and midnight... which means currently it gets a way better service in the late evenings than it does in the busy part of the day.

The Cannon St rounders are a big loss for the Sidcup line, as well as the retained up until this december evening peak pre covid semi fasts to CHX which would only call at Crayford, Bexley, Sidcup, New Eltham, then fast to London Bridge (which since 2018 ran all day monday to saturday but reduced to peak only, after the pandemic)

I for one agree with others on here that LBG is not an easy change. The escalators are long and get extremeley congested with often a queue to get on them. A footbridge like before or a mezzanine level for changing would've prevented this.

I remember a better service in the late 90s when Cannon St started to be open full time, pretty much doubling the frequency to London on most lines that would otherwise only operate in to Charing Cross. IMO the new timetable (especially on Metro routes) is a farce and very short sighted especially with the likes of Lewisham, Kidbrooke, Deptford, Greenwich all seeing huge resedential towers and massive developements which have been finished during the pandemic.

The loss of the Sidcup rounders is felt even by those north of Bexley and in Greenwich, it was a handy local link.

I have bad knees (due to a series of old rugby injuries) so the having to change at London Bridge, is a pain, the elevators are now crowded with people using them and the escalators now have queues which seem dangerous to me having that many people crowd on to them.

The Jan/Feb period is when we will properly see that this timetable is a farce, I’ll most likely be letting 3 or 4 CHX trains go before I can get on one, which will increase my journey time.

As you say it’s a short sighted change, pretty every where from Deptford to Dartford and even to Gravesend is s boom area with an increase of population.

 

[Bikeman78]

The official interchange time at London Bridge is 10 minutes.

Thanks for checking. In 2004 it was four minutes! Trains were sometimes held outside the station longer than that.

 

[Basil Jet]

Agreed. Stand on the right doesn't seem to apply in the way that it does on the underground. I normally leg it up or down the stairs because hardly anyone else uses them, but they get congested sometimes as well. I certainly wouldn't risk a five minute connection. I think that is still the official minimum interchange time.

[London Bridge] It's disappointing that a brand new interchange station suffers from such congestion.

 

[evergreenadam]

Will be interesting to see if any of the changes result in a return to peak hour overcrowding.

 

[NorthKent1989]

[London Bridge] It's disappointing that a brand new interchange station suffers from such congestion.

I feel London Bridge in its current form is only for aesthetic value, and not for the convenience it was promised.

Will be interesting to see if any of the changes result in a return to peak hour overcrowding.

We will see in January, though the last few days were pretty busy

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Sorry to post here but to save starting a new thread - I'm interested in what Southeastern are running on the Maidstone East line on Tuesday 27th December. There is nothing on their website but NRE and RTT show trains aren't running until about 13.00hrs. Is this correct !? I couldn't see any engineering work but NRE mention RMT strikes...? I presume this is the overtime ban. Do bank holidays always rely on just overtime?

My daughter needs to travel again from London

 

[ComUtoR]

I feel London Bridge in its current form is only for aesthetic value, and not for the convenience it was promised.

It's a superbly designed station for interchanges. The old station was a total nightmare. Operationally it's a lot better too

 

[JonathanH]

Sorry to post here but to save starting a new thread - I'm interested in what Southeastern are running on the Maidstone East line on Tuesday 27th December. There is nothing on their website but NRE and RTT show trains aren't running until about 13.00hrs. Is this correct !?

Network Rail workers are on strike until the middle of the day so a late start.

First arrival in Maidstone from London at 1500 seems entirely plausible.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Network Rail workers are on strike until the middle of the day so a late start.

Ah I forgot about the NR strikes... thanks for clarifying, that explains that then