Southeastern to become "the first regional integrated railway"?

[yorksrob]

Unless I've made a mistake, Greater Manchester, Merseyside, Lancashire and South and West Yorkshire collectively have ~9.7 mn people and 8575 km² giving a population density of 1128/km² compared to 520/km² for the Netherlands (and that's including areas like Lancaster and Ribble Valley whilst excluding Halton and Warrington). The Randstad has an urban density of 1135/km².

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 May 2025 ==


How many relevant stations don't have sufficient platforms for 9-10 carriage services? railwaydata.co.uk/stations/overview/?TLC=HUD suggests that there aren't currently any platforms of at least 200 metres, for example (but with at least some extended to that length under current plans).

The main ones on the InterCity network do.

Huddersfield, Dewsbury and Stalybridge might be more tricky.

 

[A S Leib]

Warrington Central, Newton-le-Willows and Lea Green don't have any platforms that long either, if still stopping Liverpool services there.

 

[yorksrob]

I suppose you could have some long IC type services that only stop at the main city stations - but you'd still have to sort out Huddersfield as you couldn't sensibly miss it out.

 

[GraphitProjekt]

Unless I've made a mistake, Greater Manchester, Merseyside, Lancashire and South and West Yorkshire collectively have ~9.7 mn people and 8575 km² giving a population density of 1128/km² compared to 520/km² for the Netherlands (and that's including areas like Lancaster and Ribble Valley whilst excluding Halton and Warrington). The Randstad has an urban density of 1135/km².

yes sorry, this is probably what I was misremembering! The Urban North is equivalent to Amsterdam+Hague+Rotterdam+Utrecht

 

[vuzzeho]

So what improvements will come to SE as a regionally integrated railway?

 

[yorksrob]

So what improvements will come to SE as a regionally integrated railway?

Interesting question, if only because I've always found South Eastern to be a good reliable railway when visiting in recent years.

 

[GraphitProjekt]

a friend of mine is a regular 9-5 commuter on the sidcup line and he would disagree! I think they were apparently at peak performance on that line around summer 2021. But there's a lot of signalling issues i think and regular cessation of services on the weekends.

 

[frankmoh]

a friend of mine is a regular 9-5 commuter on the sidcup line and he would disagree! I think they were apparently at peak performance on that line around summer 2021. But there's a lot of signalling issues i think and regular cessation of services on the weekends.

Always annoying when stuff happens at New Cross, or more recently St. Johns. Lots of trains route through there even if they don't stop.

 

[Dr Hoo]

To what extent will combining Network Rail and South Eastern make (say) signal failures on the Sidcup service or weekend engineering possessions disappear though?

With no obvious ‘value’ of disruption once the Schedule 4 Restrictions of Use and Schedule 8 Performance regimes are in the bin it will be even easier for managers to take their eye off the ball or indulge in poorly prioritised initiatives.

 

[Zomboid]

But services on the BML etc are already 12 cars, so what’s next?

Double deck proposals, of course.

 

[frankmoh]

Double deck proposals, of course.

12 cars and double deck!

 

[cle]

Double deck proposals, of course.

Eeeek.

I think the service pattern could be redone.

And for the TPE route, even the 2tph stoppers should be 4-6 cars, more if enlisting more skip stopping - and some of those stations have shorter platforms. It’s more about the stock and ambition there, than platform extensions though. My point was more - save the civils money, order appropriate stock instead and max out.

Back to Southeastern however… my views are still to sever the local and longer distance services more. Cannon St and Victoria don’t run beyond Medway and take up more Dartford running. Charing Cross picks up more of the longer distance running, with St Pancras handling the coasts also. This would enable more frequent services, less conflicts.

The main casualty is Bromley South, but I think an outer pattern could have less stops, eg Victoria has 4-6 semi and 4-6 slow via Herne Hill each hour, each semi w two stops before Bromley. Make it more of a metro service.

 

[zwk500]

Double deck proposals, of course.

Double deck will require rebuilding every platform of course. but the Brighton line doesn't really need double-deck, it needs Croydon/Windmill Bridge jns sorting out and an extension of the 4-track to (ideally) Keymer junction.

 

[yorksrob]

a friend of mine is a regular 9-5 commuter on the sidcup line and he would disagree! I think they were apparently at peak performance on that line around summer 2021. But there's a lot of signalling issues i think and regular cessation of services on the weekends.

I must admit, I'm more of a traveller on the Kent Coast lines these days, rather than Kent Link.

I'm being like a broken record here, but i'd like to see fast trains from Ashford to Charing Cross back !

 

[Dr Hoo]

I’m still trying to understand how a ‘regional integrated railway’ has very much to with re-hashing the timetable. This could surely be done under the present setup at a metaphorical stroke of a micromanager’s pen.

Are we assuming that integrated South Eastern will have its own integrated train planning office and ‘secede’ from Milton Keynes in this respect?

 

[NorthKent1989]

I hope we get some actual improvements, and not the usual “let’s dump everything on the Liz and the DLR” attitude.

6tph restored on the Greenwich line, make it all Cannon Street, the Thameslink Rainham? Back to SE, no more incursions from Thameslink, keep it neat and so reliability improves, the Rainham could become Victoria to Rainham service via Blackheath & Woolwich, (stopping only at Denmark Hill perhaps between Victoria & Lewisham for better cross south London connections) it’s a odd service that’s less metro but not mainline either, but something akin to the Marylebone to Aylesbury, Waterloo to Windsor/Reading and London, Tilbury & Southend services, middle distance semi fast, can run 2tph.

Victoria to Lewisham was going to be 4tph at some point was it not?

Sidcup line needs the loop service back more than ever, Abbey Wood is a destination, though I do wonder if the SL3 which serves Sidcup & Bexley has picked up any loop passengers for this purpose? It’d be a shame if this didn’t return, I don’t want the buck being passed to local TfL services anymore, I know they’re a minority of users but Charlton fans who live in Sidcup would be happy again

I like the idea of what someone said upthread

St. Pancras: Coastals
Charing Cross: Mainline
Victoria & Cannon Street: Metro

You could probably mix this up a bit, as the Hayes and Sidcups could remain as CHX services, ideally the Rainham Thameslink would be a Victoria service (maybe a CHX like before)

Another hope is that the fleet gets fully refurbished and spruced up, even the Networkers, I reckon they have ten more years of good service before they’re scrapped, the metro fleet is a state.

Pre covid most stations were manned until quite late too, hope this returns.

 

[vuzzeho]

I'm surprised they haven't handed anything over to TfL to run. I would've expect SE (and now SWR) to try give TfL some services.

 

[Zomboid]

I'm surprised they haven't handed anything over to TfL to run. I would've expect SE (and now SWR) to try give TfL some services.

Why? They barely interface with TfL services. I can see a benefit to branding some inner suburban services as part of the Overground network, but that need not be more than showing them on the system map. TfL have got plenty on their plate already.

 

[zwk500]

I'm surprised they haven't handed anything over to TfL to run. I would've expect SE (and now SWR) to try give TfL some services.

Why would they make things more awkward for themselves?

 

[NorthKent1989]

I'm surprised they haven't handed anything over to TfL to run. I would've expect SE (and now SWR) to try give TfL some services.

SE’s metro network would have to have a radical overhaul for this to happen, TfL want simple services, in this scenario I can see all metro routes going to Cannon Street but then you have to untangle the four Dartford routes; Greenwich, Woolwich, Bexleyheath and Sidcup lines, which that alone is a complicated network, especially with Thameslink in the mix.

The Thameslink service runs via the Greenwich line, eating into 2tph of what could be a 6tph line, the Woolwich line (North Kent Line) is the only one of the Dartford routes that is 2tph, you could switch Thameslink to run via Lewisham and Blackheath through Woolwich onto Medway, this then separates the more metro Greenwich, Bexleyheath and Sidcup lines from the more outer-suburban Woolwich line rather neatly but the you’d have to untangle the Loop, Dartford terminators and Gravesend terminators and decide which line goes to which terminal.

I think TfL would like to run these routes but they don’t want the hassle of untangling everything an effectively working around Thameslink

 

[cle]

If we are assuming the Hayes services eventually drop off - there is a little more to play with there out of Charing Cross.

Could we go further with the sectioning off, and say that Cannon St is only Dartford line services (no Orpington slows) - and get to something like 6tph on each Greenwich, Bexleyheath, Sidcup - with Victoria taking up the Rainham 2tph via Blackheath? They could be a mix of loopers, Dartfords and some outers (Gravesend/Gillingham) which might have some faster patterns.

Everything that calls at Chislehurst would be from Charing Cross - and this could possibly be 6tph also (3 via Lewisham - if that doesn't mess things up) - although we might want to make a call of splitting the Hither Green routes as being one all Lewisham, one all fast. If that enables more frequency overall. People may want the Lewisham connection though, and especially moreso after the Bakerloo.

 

[frankmoh]

If we are assuming the Hayes services eventually drop off - there is a little more to play with there out of Charing Cross.

Could we go further with the sectioning off, and say that Cannon St is only Dartford line services (no Orpington slows) - and get to something like 6tph on each Greenwich, Bexleyheath, Sidcup - with Victoria taking up the Rainham 2tph via Blackheath? They could be a mix of loopers, Dartfords and some outers (Gravesend/Gillingham) which might have some faster patterns.

Everything that calls at Chislehurst would be from Charing Cross - and this could possibly be 6tph also (3 via Lewisham - if that doesn't mess things up) - although we might want to make a call of splitting the Hither Green routes as being one all Lewisham, one all fast. If that enables more frequency overall. People may want the Lewisham connection though, and especially moreso after the Bakerloo.

Hayes line user here - too many commuters to make anything less than 4ph useful. Recent delays meant that 2 trains didn't stop, the one that eventually arrived was absolutely packed before Catford Bridge. I could see them running 3ph if they ran 10 car units more consistently, something that will probably be done after the City Beams overtake the 465 in usage.

 

[cle]

Hayes line user here - too many commuters to make anything less than 4ph useful. Recent delays meant that 2 trains didn't stop, the one that eventually arrived was absolutely packed before Catford Bridge. I could see them running 3ph if they ran 10 car units more consistently, something that will probably be done after the City Beams overtake the 465 in usage.

I'm only thinking the above patterns with Hayes line moving to the Bakerloo - which might be something like 28tph to Lewisham, and likely to be 12tph+ to Hayes and 6tph to Beckenham Junction minimum.

Which yes, would slow some journeys, but would no doubt improve many more - and instigate far more new ones (per Crossrail) even at stopping patterns, it has shown frequency and one-seat rides are the real drivers, not the odd peak express to a city ring terminus.

And hopefully a lot of homebuilding along the route.

 

[Class 466]

c2c would surely be the easier as that's both self-contained and smaller. As it happens that's up for nationalisation soon, so presumably if the trial with SE is working it could be quickly expanded to c2c.

Once both are nationalised it makes sense to me that c2c and Greater Anglia are Merged and then become the Anglia region combined operator.

 

[frankmoh]

I'm only thinking the above patterns with Hayes line moving to the Bakerloo - which might be something like 28tph to Lewisham, and likely to be 12tph+ to Hayes and 6tph to Beckenham Junction minimum.

Which yes, would slow some journeys, but would no doubt improve many more - and instigate far more new ones (per Crossrail) even at stopping patterns, it has shown frequency and one-seat rides are the real drivers, not the odd peak express to a city ring terminus.

And hopefully a lot of homebuilding along the route.

If the Bakerloo line does get to the Hayes Line, I urge them to make a new stock with transverse seating on some carriages like the Metropolitan, since that's the arrangement most are used to already with the 465s and its a longer journey to London. (unless you sit in the wheelchair carriage all the time)

 

[cle]

If the Bakerloo line does get to the Hayes Line, I urge them to make a new stock with transverse seating on some carriages like the Metropolitan, since that's the arrangement most are used to already with the 465s and its a longer journey to London. (unless you sit in the wheelchair carriage all the time)

The existing stock has a little of it too! So would be a fun continuity.... I think it's doable - although even though the frequency would go up a lot, the trains would be a fair bit shorter.

And south of Lewisham, there won't be loads of churn - it becomes commuter rail.

The northern end - it's more metro (journeys to Willesden Jn, local trips to Wembley) - most Harrow/Kenton/Wembley users use the Met - or LNR - not many go from H&W into Central London all the way, volume is really Willesden Junction/Queens Park and in.

 

[frankmoh]

The existing stock has a little of it too! So would be a fun continuity.... I think it's doable - although even though the frequency would go up a lot, the trains would be a fair bit shorter.

And south of Lewisham, there won't be loads of churn - it becomes commuter rail.

The northern end - it's more metro (journeys to Willesden Jn, local trips to Wembley) - most Harrow/Kenton/Wembley users use the Met - or LNR - not many go from H&W into Central London all the way, volume is really Willesden Junction/Queens Park and in.

A very apt assessment. Nowhere on the Hayes Line south of Lewisham is really a destination. Ladywell is in a park, New Beckenham is in a field with some atrocious new build houses next to it, and Clock House is probably the most mundane station in all of London. The only place with any interchange is Elmers End because of the trams.

 

[NorthKent1989]

If we are assuming the Hayes services eventually drop off - there is a little more to play with there out of Charing Cross.

Could we go further with the sectioning off, and say that Cannon St is only Dartford line services (no Orpington slows) - and get to something like 6tph on each Greenwich, Bexleyheath, Sidcup - with Victoria taking up the Rainham 2tph via Blackheath? They could be a mix of loopers, Dartfords and some outers (Gravesend/Gillingham) which might have some faster patterns.

Everything that calls at Chislehurst would be from Charing Cross - and this could possibly be 6tph also (3 via Lewisham - if that doesn't mess things up) - although we might want to make a call of splitting the Hither Green routes as being one all Lewisham, one all fast. If that enables more frequency overall. People may want the Lewisham connection though, and especially moreso after the Bakerloo.

This could work, and as for the Hayes I’d even suggest 2tph Victoria to Hayes? Victoria to Lewisham was set to go 4tph.

Ideally you’d have this service pattern:

CST - Greenwich - Dartford 3tph

CST - Greenwich - Sidcup - CST 3tph

CST - Bexleyheath - Dartford 3tph

CST - Bexleyheath - Gravesend 3tph

CST - Sidcup - Greenwich - CST 3tph (skips Lewisham)

CHX - Sidcup - Gravesend 3tph

CHX - Lewisham - Chislehurst - Sevenoaks - 3tph

CHX - Chislehurst -Orpington 3tph
(Lewisham would be skipped on this service, this will give stations beyond Orpington to Sevenoaks sccesss to the interchange at Lewisham)

CHX - Hayes (not Lewisham) 2tph

VIC - Lewisham - Hayes 2tph

VIC - Denmark Hill - Blackheath - Woolwich - Medway 2tph (Not calling at Peckham Rye or Nunhead)

Wouldn’t be sure how you’d fit in 6tph at Hayes, so left it at 4tph with 2toh going to different terminals.

In the peaks the Bexleyheaths & Sidcups could run from Medway, and run fast from Lewisham to LB.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 May 2025 ==

A very apt assessment. Nowhere on the Hayes Line south of Lewisham is really a destination. Ladywell is in a park, New Beckenham is in a field with some atrocious new build houses next to it, and Clock House is probably the most mundane station in all of London. The only place with any interchange is Elmers End because of the trams.

The Hayes line is also self contained south of Lewisham.

The only destination as such on the Hayes line would probably be Lower Sydenham for the Savacentre and Shopping park nearby

If there were regular services to Beckenham Jc, that would create a good interchange link between Bromley South to Lewisham, or even a Penge East to Lewisham with a change at Beckenham Jc, saves taking the long 75 bus route, but the Hayes line is primarily a quiet suburban line.

 

[frankmoh]

This could work, and as for the Hayes I’d even suggest 2tph Victoria to Hayes? Victoria to Lewisham was set to go 4tph.

Ideally you’d have this service pattern:

CST - Greenwich - Dartford 3tph

CST - Greenwich - Sidcup - CST 3tph

CST - Bexleyheath - Dartford 3tph

CST - Bexleyheath - Gravesend 3tph

CST - Sidcup - Greenwich - CST 3tph

CST - Sidcup - Gravesend 3tph

CHX - Lewisham - Chislehurst - Sevenoaks - 3tph

CHX - Chislehurst -Orpington 3tph
(Lewisham would be skipped on this service, this will give stations beyond Orpington to Sevenoaks sccesss to the interchange at Lewisham)

CHX - Hayes (not Lewisham) 2tph

VIC - Lewisham - Hayes 2tph

VIC - Denmark Hill - Blackheath - Woolwich - Medway 2tph (Not calling at Peckham Rye or Nunhead)

Wouldn’t be sure how you’d fit in 6tph at Hayes, so left it at 4tph with 2toh going to different terminals.

In the peaks the Bexleyheaths & Sidcups could run from Medway, and run fast from Lewisham to LB.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 May 2025 ==



The Hayes line is also self contained south of Lewisham.

The only destination as such on the Hayes line would probably be Lower Sydenham for the Savacentre and Shopping park nearby

If there were regular services to Beckenham Jc, that would create a good interchange link between Bromley South to Lewisham, or even a Penge East to Lewisham with a change at Beckenham Jc, saves taking the long 75 bus route, but the Hayes line is primarily a quiet suburban line.

We are both forgetting Elmers End's BIG TESCO!

Also would running Hayes to Victoria work as well? I always assumed they used to go to Cannon Street instead because Beckenham Junction went there, and the two lines are close by. Actually, they are linked at New Beckenham.

 

[Bald Rick]

Once both are nationalised it makes sense to me that c2c and Greater Anglia are Merged and then become the Anglia region combined operator.

The operator will be GBR.