Southern Class 170s on Marshlink

[Chrisgr31]

The latest from Southern about the 171s is in a response to the MP for Hasting and tweeted in a thread by Marshlink https://twitter.com/marshlinktrains/status/1331247830971936768?s=21 and the specific words are:

“To reiterate previous commitments, the current rolling stock will not be removed until there is rolling stock to replace them. We recognise this is an important development and we will keep you updated on this.”

Personally I expect Uckfield to be electrified with 3rd rail and Marshlink to be battery hybrid. The RSSB is producing a report in to new 3rd rail but not until late 21 early 22

 

[grumpyoldman01]

There's a lot in the Southern/etc franchise agreement about the sub-leasing of 377s, so there is a much detail in the franchise documentation when needed; this isn't unique to the Southern/etc one - there's reference in the East Midlands Railways EMA to a class 153 going to Northern specifically for the Cleethorpes - Barton-on-Humber service

Specifically regarding the 171s, the Emergency Measures Agreement for Southern/etc shows N/A for the total fleet, and if you look elsewhere it states that were an entry is marked in this way, there is no change to what is shown in the franchise agreement; so if you go to the actual franchise agreement to seek clarification about intentions for 171s - it's been redacted!

Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find the East Midlands Railways franchise agreement on the DfT website; the direct award for East Midlands TRAINS is available, and this is linked to the East Midlands RAILWAYS EMA for some reason. However, the East Midlands Railways EMA again states that when N/A is shown, the original agreement stands, so as there is a new table formulated as recently as 31 March 2020 showing the 170/3s and 171s transferring over, and as it uses MUST, I believe that such a transfer is intended. Moreover, where phasing of the delivery of new or cascaded trains is planned, this is shown (810s and LNER HSTs), and if availability was subject to other trains being available first, this could easily have been stated in footnotes 11-13 inclusive; footnotes 8 - 14 have a common form of words, and could easily have qualified the planned transfers in of cascaded DMUs by saying something like "subject to availability" if a definite programme hadn't already been agreed.

Note that there are no footnotes for the class 180s or 360s on the table; they just show start dates for the East Midland leases (and end date of Dec 2022 for the 180s).

I've been retired for many years, but it was the case that if must was used in a contract (including in a table in a contract), it was interpreted as an instruction; is that no longer the case?

 

[Fincra5]

There's a lot in the Southern/etc franchise agreement about the sub-leasing of 377s, so there is a much detail in the franchise documentation when needed; this isn't unique to the Southern/etc one - there's reference in the East Midlands Railways EMA to a class 153 going to Northern specifically for the Cleethorpes - Barton-on-Humber service

Specifically regarding the 171s, the Emergency Measures Agreement for Southern/etc shows N/A for the total fleet, and if you look elsewhere it states that were an entry is marked in this way, there is no change to what is shown in the franchise agreement; so if you go to the actual franchise agreement to seek clarification about intentions for 171s - it's been redacted!

Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find the East Midlands Railways franchise agreement on the DfT website; the direct award for East Midlands TRAINS is available, and this is linked to the East Midlands RAILWAYS EMA for some reason. However, the East Midlands Railways EMA again states that when N/A is shown, the original agreement stands, so as there is a new table formulated as recently as 31 March 2020 showing the 170/3s and 171s transferring over, and as it uses MUST, I believe that such a transfer is intended. Moreover, where phasing of the delivery of new or cascaded trains is planned, this is shown (810s and LNER HSTs), and if availability was subject to other trains being available first, this could easily have been stated in footnotes 11-13 inclusive; footnotes 8 - 14 have a common form of words, and could easily have qualified the planned transfers in of cascaded DMUs by saying something like "subject to availability" if a definite programme hadn't already been agreed.

Note that there are no footnotes for the class 180s or 360s on the table; they just show start dates for the East Midland leases (and end date of Dec 2022 for the 180s).

I've been retired for many years, but it was the case that if must was used in a contract (including in a table in a contract), it was interpreted as an instruction; is that no longer the case?

A transfer may take place, on paper, Sub-Leasing is quite common...

 

[fgwrich]

A transfer may take place, on paper, Sub-Leasing is quite common...

Indeed, as we've seen with the ScotRail 4 (Leased by Southern, Subleased back to ScotRail, Lease returned and now with EMR).

 

[greatvoyager]

Various ones appear on training runs but only 417 has worked passenger trains. Fingers crossed one will be out this week coming, I understand that is the intention. Whether it's 417 I'm not sure, they've all been carrying around some level of faults for a while that doesn't impact on empty training runs and COVID hasn't made it any easier to get the fitters up to speed.

Thank you.

 

[Aictos]

In all honesty I never expected the /5s to go to Southeastern. If only electrification had been announced/completed around the time they went off lease...

Well don't forget you also have the Class 375/6s that can operate off the OHL too so if the Marshlink did get electrified (unlikely) then SE could extend their Hastings services to Ashford International using the fleet which would remove the requirement for Southern to operate the Class 171 fleet there freeing them up for East Midlands Railway with Southern running 8 car Class 377 services between Brighton and Hastings.

Of course that is only a possible outcome, as to the Class 170s is there any timeline for them to work other EMR services other then the initial services?

 

[paul1609]

The latest from Southern about the 171s is in a response to the MP for Hasting and tweeted in a thread by Marshlink https://twitter.com/marshlinktrains/status/1331247830971936768?s=21 and the specific words are “To reiterate previous commitments, the current rolling stock will not be removed until there is rolling stock to replace them. We recognise this is an important development and we will keep you updated on this.”

Personally I expect Uckfield to be electrified with 3rd rail and Marshlink to be battery hybrid. The RSSB is producing a report in to new 3rd rail but not until late 21 early 22

Marshlink only needs 5 or 6 sets everyday. It wouldn't make any sense for it to have its own special rolling stock. Especially with oodles of ac available at the station formerly known as Ashford International where 40% of the useable platform length is now disused. Its is only a matter of time before mainline services from Kent to Central London are slashed freeing up hundreds of Electrostarunits.

 

[Minstral25]

Marshlink only needs 5 or 6 sets everyday. It wouldn't make any sense for it to have its own special rolling stock. Especially with oodles of ac available at the station formerly known as Ashford International where 40% of the useable platform length is now disused. Its is only a matter of time before mainline services from Kent to Central London are slashed freeing up hundreds of Electrostarunits.

The plan (according to Wikipedia which may not be accurate) is that 8 units remain - 4 x 2 car and 4x 4 car. That is no-where near enough for Uckfield but is enough to run Marshlink with some maintenance spares. Perhaps Marshlink is safe from EMR

 

[paul1609]

The plan (according to Wikipedia which may not be accurate) is that 8 units remain - 4 x 2 car and 4x 4 car. That is no-where near enough for Uckfield but is enough to run Marshlink with some maintenance spares. Perhaps Marshlink is safe from EMR

Problem is that the 2 car units cant run doubled up on Marshlink because of the short platforms. Perhaps the 2 car units are for the reopening to New Romney as part of the turning back Beeching initiative, it would almost certainly have a better return than most of the Northern schemes.
My moneys on some being retained as Thunderbirds on the Uckfield line to rescue Bald Ricks barmy batterystars when they run out of charge on the single line at Hever.

 

[OTRail]

Problem is that the 2 car units cant run doubled up on Marshlink because of the short platforms. Perhaps the 2 car units are for the reopening to New Romney as part of the turning back Beeching initiative, it would almost certainly have a better return than most of the Northern schemes.
My moneys on some being retained as Thunderbirds on the Uckfield line to rescue Bald Ricks barmy batterystars when they run out of charge on the single line at Hever.

I’ve been seeing 4 carriage units on Marshlink since the revised pandemic timetable began so it is possible.

 

[LowLevel]

I’ve been seeing 4 carriage units on Marshlink since the revised pandemic timetable began so it is possible.

Have you been seeing 4 car units or 2 x 2 car units which is what Paul said?

171s have a guard operated selective door opening system. 2 x 2 cars is a very different concept to 1 x 4 car where they can walk through the whole train easily.

 

[paul1609]

I’ve been seeing 4 carriage units on Marshlink since the revised pandemic timetable began so it is possible.

Yep its always 4 car units rather than 2 x 2car units because in 2 x 2 car units it is impossible to selectively open the doors in the other unit at 3 cars stations.

 

[Andy1673]

Marshlink only needs 5 or 6 sets everyday. It wouldn't make any sense for it to have its own special rolling stock. Especially with oodles of ac available at the station formerly known as Ashford International where 40% of the useable platform length is now disused. Its is only a matter of time before mainline services from Kent to Central London are slashed freeing up hundreds of Electrostarunits.

Marshlink hourly service requires 3 sets weekdays now (pre-Covid +another set for peak Rye to Ashford service). Now all three are 4-car 171s, pre-Covid 2-car 171s normally used.

 

[Neptune]

When I was on holiday in the summer we parked near Rye station one day and both units we saw were 4 car 171’s. Is it local door only at the short platforms?

 

[paul1609]

When I was on holiday in the summer we parked near Rye station one day and both units we saw were 4 car 171’s. Is it local door only at the short platforms?

No its a Conductor operated door select system all the doors open in a coach that is wholly alongside the platform. Doleham and Three Oaks only have 1 coach platforms that were long enough for the auto coaches that operated on the Rye to Hastings stopping service in days of Yore. In the Thumper era 60s to 2004 the coaches just hung off the end of the platform
The problem with 2 x 2 car units is that the conductor needs to be in the 3rd Coach for say Winchelsea and then in the front unit for Doleham or Three Oaks the next stop.

 

[Neptune]

No its a Conductor operated door select system all the doors open in a coach that is wholly alongside the platform. Doleham and Three Oaks only have 1 coach platforms that were long enough for the auto coaches that operated on the Rye to Hastings stopping service in days of Yore. In the Thumper era 60s to 2004 the coaches just hung off the end of the platform
The problem with 2 x 2 car units is that the conductor needs to be in the 3rd Coach for say Winchelsea and then in the front unit for Doleham or Three Oaks the next stop.

Thanks for the explanation.

 

[Mollman]

The plan (according to Wikipedia which may not be accurate) is that 8 units remain - 4 x 2 car and 4x 4 car. That is no-where near enough for Uckfield but is enough to run Marshlink with some maintenance spares. Perhaps Marshlink is safe from EMR

Problem is that the 2 car units cant run doubled up on Marshlink because of the short platforms. Perhaps the 2 car units are for the reopening to New Romney as part of the turning back Beeching initiative, it would almost certainly have a better return than most of the Northern schemes.
My moneys on some being retained as Thunderbirds on the Uckfield line to rescue Bald Ricks barmy batterystars when they run out of charge on the single line at Hever.

They could be creating 8x3 car sets?

 

[Kite159]

I can see Marshlink getting cut back to Hastings to reduce number of units required (only need 2). Maybe at weekends.

 

[OTRail]

I can see Marshlink getting cut back to Hastings to reduce number of units required (only need 2). Maybe at weekends.

It was already cut back to Eastbourne from Brighton to accommodate shortages a while ago so I don’t think further ones will be made - I think the units remaining with Southern will be able to run the current Marshlink service as it is.

 

[4SubAsociation]

Problem is that the 2 car units cant run doubled up on Marshlink because of the short platforms. Perhaps the 2 car units are for the reopening to New Romney as part of the turning back Beeching initiative, it would almost certainly have a better return than most of the Northern schemes.
My moneys on some being retained as Thunderbirds on the Uckfield line to rescue Bald Ricks barmy batterystars when they run out of charge on the single line at Hever.

Not heard any plans myself for the New Romney Branch to be reopened. (A little Off Topic i know). It would of been published as part of the restoring railways initiave. The only thing planned for Kent is a new station Thanet Parkway

Thanet Parkway Railway Station - Kent County Council

Development information on the new train station in Ramsgate.

www.kent.gov.uk

 

[Roast Veg]

It was already cut back to Eastbourne from Brighton to accommodate shortages a while ago so I don’t think further ones will be made - I think the units remaining with Southern will be able to run the current Marshlink service as it is.

It was for more than just shortages. A significant number of schoolchildren kept finding themselves on 2 car services.

 

[OTRail]

It was for more than just shortages. A significant number of schoolchildren kept finding themselves on 2 car services.

That is to do with stock shortages no?

 

[Roast Veg]

If memory serves, it was just a poorly timed Marshlink stopper heading for Brighton.

 

[OTRail]

Ah ok, no worries!

 

[paul1609]

I can see Marshlink getting cut back to Hastings to reduce number of units required (only need 2). Maybe at weekends.

The problem is that the Marshlink passenger dynamics have completely changed since the days of a Thumper terminating in the bay platform at Hastings with a connection to Charing Cross.

By far the most important connection now is at Ashford International on to HS1 services to Stratford and St Pancras.
This is because employment patterns in London have shifted to the East with Docklands.
If you're in a high paid Canary Wharf job and live on the East Sussex Coast its a lot easier to get a marshlink service to HS1 than it is to change at St Leonards Warrior Square for a painfully slow service to London Bridge where you cant get on an absolutely rammed Jubilee Line.
Stratford and St Pancras also provide a London Underground Bypass for people on longer journeys up country and East Anglia.
Even the local journeys have changed I think on a westbound service probably fewer than 25% passengers will alight at Hastings. A typical journey now will be Rye to Warrior Square or Bexhill.

 

[Roast Veg]

The problem is that the Marshlink passenger dynamics have completely changed since the days of a Thumper terminating in the bay platform at Hastings with a connection to Charing Cross.

By far the most important connection now is at Ashford International on to HS1 services to Stratford and St Pancras.
This is because employment patterns in London have shifted to the East with Docklands.
If you're in a high paid Canary Wharf job and live on the East Sussex Coast its a lot easier to get a marshlink service to HS1 than it is to change at St Leonards Warrior Square for a painfully slow service to London Bridge where you cant get on an absolutely rammed Jubilee Line.
Stratford and St Pancras also provide a London Underground Bypass for people on longer journeys up country and East Anglia.
Even the local journeys have changed I think on a westbound service probably fewer than 25% passengers will alight at Hastings. A typical journey now will be Rye to Warrior Square or Bexhill.

Agreed, the thumper in the Hastings bay is a distant memory now, and the Eastbourne/Bexhill/St Leonards/Hastings/Rye cluster plus plus the new "via Ashford" commuters makes up nearly all traffic. Terminating at Eastbourne is an acceptable compromise for now - when the diesels finally leave I would expect the service to go all the way to Brighton most of the time, even at weekends.

 

[RichardKing]

Marshlink hourly service requires 3 sets weekdays now (pre-Covid +another set for peak Rye to Ashford service). Now all three are 4-car 171s, pre-Covid 2-car 171s normally used.

With the current timetable, I think they keep an additional unit spare at St Leonards Depot, so at any one time there will be four 4 car 171s on the East Coastway.

 

[Metal_gee_man]

The hope is they never OHLE the marshlink (AONB) they get dispensation for 3rd rail is the best case scenario, the compromise is a battery/3rd rail hybrid train that charges on the 15minute stop at Ashford, the 35minutes of 3rd rail to Eastbourne and the 15 minutes sat at Eastbourne & obviously the same in return.
A off lease 379 or even a 357 could be a good test bed for an electrostar hybrid as a 4 car unit formation or potentially longer.
The worst case is we continue to have an island of diesel in a sea of 3rd rail, using either knackered out 150s or 158s as eventually EMR will want/need those 171s as per the plan

 

[Andy1673]

With the current timetable, I think they keep an additional unit spare at St Leonards Depot, so at any one time there will be four 4 car 171s on the East Coastway.

Maybe so but I doubt they do. Usually one unit visits St Leonards Depot for fuel and clean (?) then returns for overnight stable at Eastbourne platform (rarely at sidings). New timetable has midday additional paths 5F01/5F02 to/off Selhurst and these were in the current timetable. But these are spare paths for emergency swap or so and I don't think they have used them ever.

 

[louis97]

Maybe so but I doubt they do. Usually one unit visits St Leonards Depot for fuel and clean (?) then returns for overnight stable at Eastbourne platform (rarely at sidings).

The workings onto and off St Leonards in the evenings are different units. The unit arriving one evening then works the late evening/early morning departure the following day to Eastbourne. So there is always 4 units on the East Coastway, one of which is on St Leonards Depot during the day.