Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[AlterEgo]

I must be missing something. If there are fewer members of staff employed on the trains to help customers with reduced mobility, said passengers may not be able to turn up and go any more, requiring instead to book 24 hours in advance. How is that not discriminatory? A demographic who are currently able to turn up and go are now inconvenienced by the removal of a guaranteed second member of staff on the train.

There are plenty of DOO services which call at unstaffed stations at the moment, where no assistance can be provided.

 

[swt_passenger]

There are plenty of DOO services which call at unstaffed stations at the moment, where no assistance can be provided.

This seems a case of a new found (and perfectly legitimate) reason against DOO, but where were the similar complaints about existing routes when they became DOO?

No matter how often the question 'who'll put the ramps out' is asked here, DfT would simply point to existing routes elsewhere in the SE where the situation already exists.

 

[Dave1987]

No I do not accept it discriminates if properly managed.

Furthermore I would expect the railway to make use of new technology to run a cost effective, modern, capacity constrained transport system, that does what it says on the tin in the interests of customers and stakeholders.

Crossrail and Thameslink core will be ATO, I would expect this to be extended from the core over time. The GWML, GEML and most parts of the core Southern network are extremely capacity constrained and London is set to grow considerably over the years. I would expect other commuter networks round the country to follow suit.

I would expect all metros to be fully automated to "Grade of Automation 4 Systems" over the next 20 years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_automated_urban_metro_subway_systems

I would also expect branch line shuttled to be fully automated in the next 20 years, once obstacle deflectors are fitted and level crossing eliminated.

I would also expect HS2 to be built as a primarily automated system.

There are deep questions over the efficiency of lines that are provided with a guards on 30k plus a year, a driver on 40k plus a year, and a signalbox every few miles with the signalman on 30k plus, that carry less than a few small percent modal share.

It is not an efficient transport system, wages are included in any reopening or enhancement scheme. That is why the Ivanhoe line phase 2 was thrown out recently, It's more cost effective to put a bus on almost all of the time in many cases. That is a fact.

On freight, Autohaul or something similar to Positive train control will become the norm too.

The railway is simply a transport system designed to move people and goods from A to B with advantages in capacity, comfort and speed. It should move with the times and these things can be managed.

http://www.irse.org/knowledge/publicdocuments/IRSE_Seminar_16_Nov_2010_web.pdf

Well this post completely sums up what I'm on about really. I rather suspect you want the entire system automated and every driver, guard and platform staff on the dole. I don't know what happened to you in the past but you are definitely a bit bitter. NR themselves have stated it will take around 50 yrs to get the whole country up to ETCS level 2. The ECML has been pushed back to 2022! This has been discussed to death previously. Regardless of whether you want a completely automated railway or not it ain't happening any time soon. The inner core of Cross rail is purpose built will purpose built trains and low rail adhesion won't be a problem. The west side will be ETCS level 2 and the East side still AWS/TPWS for now. I'd love to see how you would propose closing even half the level crossing on GEML!

 

[highdyke]

Well this post completely sums up what I'm on about really. I rather suspect you want the entire system automated and every driver, guard and platform staff on the dole. I don't know what happened to you in the past but you are definitely a bit bitter. NR themselves have stated it will take around 50 yrs to get the whole country up to ETCS level 2. The ECML has been pushed back to 2022! This has been discussed to death previously. Regardless of whether you want a completely automated railway or not it ain't happening any time soon. The inner core of Cross rail is purpose built will purpose built trains and low rail adhesion won't be a problem. The west side will be ETCS level 2 and the East side still AWS/TPWS for now. I'd love to see how you would propose closing even half the level crossing on GEML!

Operatives have been made redundant since the beginning of the industrial revolution, people get redeployed or upskill. We used to have slaves, then machines became the workers to up productivity and reduce costs. I don't agree with 62 people owning half the world's wealth, any more than you do, that isn't sustainable. However, the industrial revolution gave us all the lifestyles we enjoy today, and the railways were and are a big part of that.

The pessimist complains about the wind
The optimist expects it to change
The realist adjusts the sails

Don't shoot the messenger.

 

[NSEFAN]

There are plenty of DOO services which call at unstaffed stations at the moment, where no assistance can be provided.

I know that, but such DOO routes were set up when there wasn't the political drive for disabled access on trains, if anything new sliding-door EMUs would have been an improvement on the old slam door stock in that regard.

I don't think it's acceptable however in this day and age for a company to take action that disadvantages the disabled on the grounds of "You too!", which is in effect what Southern are doing by DOOing their trains. If there was a second member of staff required to be on board (and they wouldn't have to be a guard necessarily) this wouldn't be an issue. Is there such a requirement to provide that level of staffing? I've not seen anything to that effect.

 

[Antman]

Aha - full automation. Your true wet dream scenario. I'm not sure Network Rail have enough money to finish half the work they've got going on at the moment, I imagine fitting 150s with ATO will be somewhat down the pecking order
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Straw man alert!

On a bus, a passenger in a wheelchair boards right next to the driver. He's not going to miss him standing at the bus stop. Whereas a train driver looking along a 12 carriage platform with a tiny monitor being dazzled by sunshine showing only the area just next to the doors isn't likely to see any particular passenger waiting to board, and so will depart once he's reasonably sure the doors are clear.

Really? Do you use buses in London very often? Only a regular complaint is wheelchair users being left behind because (guess what:roll:?) the driver didn't see them!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

my bold

Actually what is far more likely, and I wouln't blame them in the slightest, is a campaign of effective civil disobedience by disabled activists targetting GTR. Expect trains to go nowhere when disabled people tie/chain etc themselves to them as a result of zero support in using the service and/or their supporters lie on the tracks in front of them. It happened in London and big cities in the 1980s with buses and led to the current legislation, it can and likely will happen again.

Vile inept boss, vile company! Just stupid enough to pour petrol on the situation by trying to use railway byelaws in such a situation..

This is just ridiculous!

Clearly this is what you hope will happen because you obviously have some sort of vendetta against the company.

And you accuse them of pouring petrol on the situation:roll:

 

[highdyke]

This is just ridiculous!

Clearly this is what you hope will happen because you clearly have some sort of vendetta against the company.

And you accuse them of pouring petrol on the situation:roll:

Indeed, for someone who *claims* to be a public servant in Whitehall, his attitude to uses of public money (Thameslink has just had a £7 billion upgrade) and civil disobedience is appalling.

I read the 'Signalman' books by Adrian Vaughan, as a kid. Modernisation is a big theme. He's a nice chap, but rather eccentric, and really dislikes the changing railway in the 1960s. He argues large panel signalboxes are very unsafe and a backward step.

They made a huge impression on me these books, and worried that the job wouldn't last long, and I have been constantly obsessed with the idea of 'change' on the network ever since, following all new changes. I planned not to stay long, because of them, you learn after a while change is inevitable however much you wish it wasn't so.

Here we are in 2016 with a very different railway, much safer than at any time in it's history.

 

[DarloRich]

Indeed, for someone who *claims* to be a public servant in Whitehall, his attitude to uses of public money (Thameslink has just had a £7 billion upgrade) and civil disobedience is appalling.

I read the 'Signalman' books by Adrian Vaughan, as a kid. Modernisation is a big theme. He's a nice chap, but rather eccentric, and really dislikes the changing railway in the 1960s. He argues large panel signalboxes are very unsafe and a backward step.

They made a huge impression on me these books, and worried that the job wouldn't last long, and I have been constantly obsessed with the idea of 'change' on the network ever since, following all new changes. I planned not to stay long, because of them, you learn after a while change is inevitable however much you wish it wasn't so.

Here we are in 2016 with a very different railway, much safer than at any time in it's history.

But change itself inst ever the issue. How that change is presented, implemented and managed is the key. Would you agree?

 

[Wolfie]

This seems a case of a new found (and perfectly legitimate) reason against DOO, but where were the similar complaints about existing routes when they became DOO?

No matter how often the question 'who'll put the ramps out' is asked here, DfT would simply point to existing routes elsewhere in the SE where the situation already exists.

...most of which predate the legislation...

I know that, but such DOO routes were set up when there wasn't the political drive for disabled access on trains, if anything new sliding-door EMUs would have been an improvement on the old slam door stock in that regard.

I don't think it's acceptable however in this day and age for a company to take action that disadvantages the disabled on the grounds of "You too!", which is in effect what Southern are doing by DOOing their trains. If there was a second member of staff required to be on board (and they wouldn't have to be a guard necessarily) this wouldn't be an issue. Is there such a requirement to provide that level of staffing? I've not seen anything to that effect.

I agree....or, like London Overground, commit to having every station manned during operating hours.

 

[Dave1987]

Operatives have been made redundant since the beginning of the industrial revolution, people get redeployed or upskill. We used to have slaves, then machines became the workers to up productivity and reduce costs. I don't agree with 62 people owning half the world's wealth, any more than you do, that isn't sustainable. However, the industrial revolution gave us all the lifestyles we enjoy today, and the railways were and are a big part of that.

The pessimist complains about the wind
The optimist expects it to change
The realist adjusts the sails

Don't shoot the messenger.

Huh? I've given you precise examples of how your wish/opinion is incorrect and you respond like that? Kinda suggests you don't have any plausible response.

 

[Wolfie]

But change itself inst ever the issue. How that change is presented, implemented and managed is the key. Would you agree?

I agree but would go further. How change is envisaged, negotiated, presented, implemented and managed (including a willingness to change if unforeseen negative consequences arise) is the key.

Ironically I had initially actually thought that one of highdyke's early posts made a lot of sense. That was until he made it clear that the outcome was already predetermined and that all that he was seeking was a means of implementation.

Indeed, for someone who *claims* to be a public servant in Whitehall, his attitude to uses of public money (Thameslink has just had a £7 billion upgrade) and civil disobedience is appalling.

There is no "claims" about it. When performing my official duties I am scrupulous in safeguarding the public purse. I do so by taking account of all the options and performing all of the necessary stakeholder engagement. I see precious little evidence that very much if any of that was done in this case.

My offering my (anoyomous) personal views on a public forum is rather different. As for civil disobedience all I will say is that without it there would be no employment rights, women would not have the vote and in the US there would still be segregation. Being a civil servant does not mean that, in my own time, I have to accept the views of the latest batch of politicians as equivalent to the stones carrying the word of God carried down from the mountain by Moses....

This is just ridiculous!

Clearly this is what you hope will happen because you obviously have some sort of vendetta against the company.

And you accuse them of pouring petrol on the situation:roll:

I certainly don't hope that it will happen. I strongly suspect, having seen some of the 1980s protests personally in London, that it could easily do so.

Realistically what impact will a few words from a random forum member have on the situation. However the actions of the company have undoubtedly made a bad situation far worse.

 

[Dave1987]

Indeed, for someone who *claims* to be a public servant in Whitehall, his attitude to uses of public money (Thameslink has just had a £7 billion upgrade) and civil disobedience is appalling.

I read the 'Signalman' books by Adrian Vaughan, as a kid. Modernisation is a big theme. He's a nice chap, but rather eccentric, and really dislikes the changing railway in the 1960s. He argues large panel signalboxes are very unsafe and a backward step.

They made a huge impression on me these books, and worried that the job wouldn't last long, and I have been constantly obsessed with the idea of 'change' on the network ever since, following all new changes. I planned not to stay long, because of them, you learn after a while change is inevitable however much you wish it wasn't so.

Here we are in 2016 with a very different railway, much safer than at any time in it's history.

Ah so you believed the post of signaller would cease to exist so you quit. Now you want everything to be completely automated to vindicate your decision. All makes complete sense now. It's 2016 yet we still have crossing keepers and mechanical signal boxes. Digital signalling on the main line is only just on the horizon. Change is expensive and glacial on the railways.

 

[DarloRich]

I agree but would go further. How change is envisaged, negotiated, presented, implemented and managed (including a willingness to change if unforeseen negative consequences arise) is the key.

indeed - although in this case we are beyond the first two!

 

[AlterEgo]

Indeed, for someone who *claims* to be a public servant in Whitehall, his attitude to uses of public money (Thameslink has just had a £7 billion upgrade) and civil disobedience is appalling.

Civil servants are allowed to hold political views, and participate in demonstrations etc within the law of the land - I'm a Whitehall chap too.

I'm not sure that the nettle is being entirely grasped on this thread. I've played Devil's Advocate on this thread, because while I broadly support the staff affected here I'm not sure the approach taken by the RMT or by some individual posters here is constructive.

The guard on suburban services is a thing of the past. I understand that this opinion:

a) appears to denigrate the work that guards do, and
b) might be inflammatory,

but the fact is, this is a global trend thanks to increasing automation. In the future, it is given there will be fewer operatives on the railway. It is for this reason that I decided to leave the railway (as my promotion route was likely to be through ops), and do something more strategic and theoretical - a management type w***er if you like.

I totally agree with posters that there should be a second person on the train, whether it's a host, ticket examiner, or whatever.

I strongly believe that people should be able to collectively bargain and defend their jobs, living standards and so on. Those who oppose the RMT in principle should think hard about why they believe it's unacceptable for people to bargain for a fair price for their labour.

The RMT will not win this battle. DOO is being indirectly foisted upon TOCs by a Tory government, and you all know it. Battle lines are already drawn.

Best of luck to all the affected staff. You may need it.

 

[highdyke]

Huh? I've given you precise examples of how your wish/opinion is incorrect and you respond like that? Kinda suggests you don't have any plausible response.

Are you really that simple Dave? I don't think you are. Nobody knows how it will pan out, if you want me to state X will happen on X date, you are asking the wrong person. I'll maintain change is inevitable. Sometimes it's not managed very well, the Unions have drawn a line in the sand and said no more DOO. Yet people seek to blame managers for everything. Perhaps they could have managed things better as well, but who knows what really has gone on.

Left because there is other things in life, I was bored frankly. There has been a reduction since the Edwardian period in signalboxes, large PSBs and IECCs are closing now, it's nothing new.

Line protection with detonators is the past, route knowledge for guards with modern GPS is the past, and probably will be for drivers to an extent when ERTMS comes in.

This is not denigrating people's jobs and I do welcome opinions to the contrary, but we need to start thinking here rather than pointing fingers.

 

[speedy_sticks]

Are you really that simple Dave? I don't think you are. Nobody knows how it will pan out, if you want me to state X will happen on X date, you are asking the wrong person. I'll maintain change is inevitable. Sometimes it's not managed very well, the Unions have drawn a line in the sand and said no more DOO. Yet people seek to blame managers for everything. Perhaps they could have managed things better as well, but who knows what really has gone on.

Left because there is other things in life, I was bored frankly. There has been a reduction since the Edwardian period in signalboxes, large PSBs and IECCs are closing now, it's nothing new.

Line protection with detonators is the past, route knowledge for guards with modern GPS is the past, and probably will be for drivers to an extent when ERTMS comes in.

This is not denigrating people's jobs and I do welcome opinions to the contrary, but we need to start thinking here rather than pointing fingers.

I am very happy to make this work through technology and different procedures, but how is it right to have to ask for a wheelchair ramp from India?

That isn't progress.

SWT have got it down to a fine art. You press the information button at the help point and it goes through to SWT customer service in the UK and they know exactly what to do, they text the conductor on the next train and gets notified that I am waiting at station. As it happened he missed the text, but because he was doing platform duties at my unstaffed station he saw me on the platform.

Now with Abellio East (can't remember their full title). I pressed the information button which sent me to India and the emergency button which went to uk call centre. None of them had an immediate clue as to what to do, no backup plan or anything

How hard can it be to have a backup plan for whole network, SWT manage.

 

[Dave1987]

Are you really that simple Dave? I don't think you are. Nobody knows how it will pan out, if you want me to state X will happen on X date, you are asking the wrong person. I'll maintain change is inevitable. Sometimes it's not managed very well, the Unions have drawn a line in the sand and said no more DOO. Yet people seek to blame managers for everything. Perhaps they could have managed things better as well, but who knows what really has gone on.

Left because there is other things in life, I was bored frankly. There has been a reduction since the Edwardian period in signalboxes, large PSBs and IECCs are closing now, it's nothing new.

Line protection with detonators is the past, route knowledge for guards with modern GPS is the past, and probably will be for drivers to an extent when ERTMS comes in.

This is not denigrating people's jobs and I do welcome opinions to the contrary, but we need to start thinking here rather than pointing fingers.

Unless the system is completely infallible you will never get rid of detonator protection. It's a very simple way of protecting the line. It should never ever need to be used but it is the last line of defence. Once we start trying to go down that route you end up with unthinkable scenarios happening and people get killed or injured. With TCOC's you shouldn't need detonators but you still have them!

I really don't get how GPS is supposed to replace route knowledge for guards.

And ETCS is not going to replace route knowledge for drivers.

 

[highdyke]

Ironically I had initially actually thought that one of highdyke's early posts made a lot of sense. That was until he made it clear that the outcome was already predetermined and that all that he was seeking was a means of implementation.

Let's make it clear, no outcome is determined. I'm not on either side, and have always maintained there is a compromise where both sides should sit and talk, there is value in many cases of having two people on a train. You admit you're an outsider, yet you come down firmly against a company that is trying to modernise the network, who has to complete in a market to return ever more money to the DFT: Thus in order to get railway finances under control, which any government, whatever their colour is going to have to do anyway. The evidence for a safety problem just isn't there. It's not a new system, it was put in by the nationalised BR in 1982!

So maybe the implementation at Southern has been crap, I'd have had a full compliment of staff for a start and more consultation. But it's on record the DFT knew all about this..

Some of the comments against the pro-DOO (aka modernisation) people have been appalling, nothing short of bullying - even if they support two people on most trains! Having witnessed and stopped crashes, I would never ever think to support a policy that would put safety at risk.

No further comments.

 

[infobleep]

This is one of the problems with industrial relations in this country.
Instead of working together for the good of the company AND the workers, it's a 'them and us' all the time.

I have come across that myself. In the middle are those who want a centralist view. I. E. only the best bits from both sides.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[Chrisgr31]

I'm not sure that is a reasonable comparison, if it were you could say two people were nowhere near enough either, where would it end?

Effectively it is the only thing we have to compare it with though. I suppose we could look at an aircraft, 2 pilots and a varying number of cabin crew depending on the number of passengers.

I struggle to believe that it is safe to have a train carrying over 1,000 people with only 1 trained member of staff on board, especially when that member of staff is the most vulnerable in the event of an incident.

Yes incidents are rare but they are rare in nightclubs, cinemas, aircraft, shopping centres etc, all environments where the number of trained staff are controlled by law.

All of this also ignores the fact that passengers are getting something they probably dont want. Apparently passengers want on board staff which they do, but I doubt they want staff onboadr who will be attempting to sell the highest priced ticket. Many passengers especially commuters dont want more information either.

The simple solution would appear to be to oblige guards to walk through the train and do a ticket check!

 

[313103]

Some of the comments against the pro-DOO (aka modernisation) people have been appalling, nothing short of bullying - even if they support two people on most trains! Having witnessed and stopped crashes, I would never ever think to support a policy that would put safety at risk.

No further comments.

Just one quick question, why does modernisation always mean job loses?

 

[AlterEgo]

Just one quick question, why does modernisation always mean job loses?

Because that's how money gets saved, which can be reinvested in new technologies. World keeps turning.

 

[speedy_sticks]

Because that's how money gets saved, which can be reinvested in new technologies. World keeps turning.

But it shouldn't be at the expense if disabled people who are 'Trying to do the right thing'.

 

[philthetube]

I think that the maths would be very interesting from a GB LTD point of view

are there actually ans savings, or costs to the taxpayer achieved by getting rid of guards.

Savings are easily quantified, no wages to pay and the occasional cancellation avoided, costs of that could be calculated based on last year fairly easily.

costs (to the country) are far more difficult to evaluate, these include:-

Loss of fare revenue, because of deliberate evasion and occasions where there is no opportunity to pay fares,

Additional costs of providing facilities for disabled,

Costs of delays because of no second member of staff on board, pass alarms etc.

Loss or revenue to the treasury because of the loss of these jobs, at a rough guess £9.000 per person.

Additional cost, to the treasury or social payments for people who are not qualified do do any other well paid job.

whether all these staff get and keep ops jobs or staff cuts are made you have to wonder if all this is worth fighting over, certainly as a tax payer I don't think so, it can only be savings of pennies to the state.

 

[AlterEgo]

But it shouldn't be at the expense if disabled people who are 'Trying to do the right thing'.

Do you think DOO services contravene the Equality Act?

 

[speedy_sticks]

Do you think DOO services contravene the Equality Act?

Well when I was at Deal station and the Javilin stopped there, I couldn't see anybody to signal that I wanted to get on, I signaled the driver as he was coming in, I asked a few customers to see if they could see anybody exiting the train, nobody came out and the train left without me, so you tell me?

 

[Deepgreen]

Effectively it is the only thing we have to compare it with though. I suppose we could look at an aircraft, 2 pilots and a varying number of cabin crew depending on the number of passengers.

I struggle to believe that it is safe to have a train carrying over 1,000 people with only 1 trained member of staff on board, especially when that member of staff is the most vulnerable in the event of an incident.

Yes incidents are rare but they are rare in nightclubs, cinemas, aircraft, shopping centres etc, all environments where the number of trained staff are controlled by law.

All of this also ignores the fact that passengers are getting something they probably dont want. Apparently passengers want on board staff which they do, but I doubt they want staff onboadr who will be attempting to sell the highest priced ticket. Many passengers especially commuters dont want more information either.

The simple solution would appear to be to oblige guards to walk through the train and do a ticket check!

Exactly! Southern are out of control at present with ticket checks - first class is a free-for-all and guards are hardly ever seen, with TTIs having disappeared again after a short spell of activity. It's shambolic at best.

 

[HowardGWR]

I think that the maths would be very interesting from a GB LTD point of view

are there actually ans savings, or costs to the taxpayer achieved by getting rid of guards.

Savings are easily quantified, no wages to pay and the occasional cancellation avoided, costs of that could be calculated based on last year fairly easily.

costs (to the country) are far more difficult to evaluate, these include:-

Loss of fare revenue, because of deliberate evasion and occasions where there is no opportunity to pay fares,

Additional costs of providing facilities for disabled,

Costs of delays because of no second member of staff on board, pass alarms etc.

Loss or revenue to the treasury because of the loss of these jobs, at a rough guess £9.000 per person.

Additional cost, to the treasury or social payments for people who are not qualified do do any other well paid job.

whether all these staff get and keep ops jobs or staff cuts are made you have to wonder if all this is worth fighting over, certainly as a tax payer I don't think so, it can only be savings of pennies to the state.

My bold. How can you claim this if, as you precede this statement, you don't know the figures?

The calculation for Southern and other companies does not take into account people's tax liabilities and other factors you mention. The railway franchise companies are not a national institution and the calculations are not a BCR, such as is done for capital expenditure by NR (which is a national institution) where factors not directly related to the bottom line are so evaluated.

 

[quantinghome]

Well when I was at Deal station and the Javilin stopped there, I couldn't see anybody to signal that I wanted to get on, I signaled the driver as he was coming in, I asked a few customers to see if they could see anybody exiting the train, nobody came out and the train left without me, so you tell me?

It sounds like you were badly treated by the company here. I'm no expert, but there might be a case against the company for breaching the Equality Act.

That said, this seems to be an issue about customer service rather than safety on the railway. Ultimately, there are a number of ways the train company could provide access for mobility impaired customers such as yourself; it doesn't have to be provided by guards.

 

[AlterEgo]

Well when I was at Deal station and the Javilin stopped there, I couldn't see anybody to signal that I wanted to get on, I signaled the driver as he was coming in, I asked a few customers to see if they could see anybody exiting the train, nobody came out and the train left without me, so you tell me?

I was asking about DOO services in general, not a single experience (though the one you describe was very bad).

As you say upthread, SWT have got it right.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Ultimately, there are a number of ways the train company could provide access for mobility impaired customers such as yourself; it doesn't have to be provided by guards.

Quite.