Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[highdyke]

Nor mine when i've been involved in major high profile crashes and not so high profile near misses, as well as people like 74 etc

I agree through there is nothing more to be said and you cannot say anything on this forum, which used to be good, but now has turned into a mess room with vested interests from an extreme left wing union attacking people left, right and centre, with their supporters adding more slops to the trough, many of whom have no bloody clue what they are talking about.

No problem with people protecting their rights, do have a problem with such an extreme position considering we have tech to deal with line protection, which could be enhanced even further given a little imagination. Hell I'd take the operation of the doors out of the hands of both driver and guard, we've the tech to do that too.

This debate will still being going on in 20 years, when every other forms of transport can more or less run itself, with the railways a national joke. There's plenty of people out there that think they are a victorian oddity as it is.

What a bloody shame.

I'll leave you with this.

http://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-dismisses-half-hearted-belated-apology/?

"We don't want his half-baked apologies, we want him to call off the dogs and get back to serious industrial relations"

Oh the irony.

 

[HH]

I think RMT are right to target Wilko, but they could have done better than that. The use of the word "beano" immediately devalues the piece. Wilko is not part of the Industrial Relations process either, so that barb misses the target. It would have been better to point to his other failings under question (like his failure to answer any of the questions around data) and to call for his resignation.

 

[alastair]

Nor mine when i've been involved in major high profile crashes and not so high profile near misses, as well as people like 74 etc

I agree through there is nothing more to be said and you cannot say anything on this forum, which used to be good, but now has turned into a mess room with vested interests from an extreme left wing union attacking people left, right and centre, with their supporters adding more slops to the trough, many of whom have no bloody clue what they are talking about.

No problem with people protecting their rights, do have a problem with such an extreme position considering we have tech to deal with line protection, which could be enhanced even further given a little imagination. Hell I'd take the operation of the doors out of the hands of both driver and guard, we've the tech to do that too.

This debate will still being going on in 20 years, when every other forms of transport can more or less run itself, with the railways a national joke. There's plenty of people out there that think they are a victorian oddity as it is.

What a bloody shame.

I'll leave you with this.

http://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-dismisses-half-hearted-belated-apology/?

"We don't want his half-baked apologies, we want him to call off the dogs and get back to serious industrial relations"

Oh the irony.

Indeed. Can anyone explain who these bizarre so-called "press releases" from the RMT, with their talk of "Tory party beanos" and "Blokes calling the shots" are actually aimed at? It seems impossible to believe that any main-stream publication,radio or TV station would treat them as anything other than a bad joke. Or maybe they are just meant for staff consumption,in which case why call it a press release?

Surely the purpose of a Press Office is to communicate the RMT's message in a cogent and understandable (to outsiders) form.They have some good points to make re. safety,but fall back on the tired old "class war" cliches.

Do RMT members feel that their subs are being well-spent in the Press Office department?

 

[infobleep]

What's the point? Everything that can be said has been. I certainly have not seen any arguements from the pro-DOO people that stand up to basic scrutiny, and they are still of the mindset that anything said against DOO is just dinosaur unions protecting jobs.

There are occasional the likes of XDM who are obviously just trying to protect their own job working as PA for Charles Horton.

And the people directly affected at Southern have bern bullied by management into not posting.

Well said.

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Indeed. Can anyone explain who these bizarre so-called "press releases" from the RMT, with their talk of "Tory party beanos" and "Blokes calling the shots" are actually aimed at? It seems impossible to believe that any main-stream publication,radio or TV station would treat them as anything other than a bad joke. Or maybe they are just meant for staff consumption,in which case why call it a press release?

Surely the purpose of a Press Office is to communicate the RMT's message in a cogent and understandable (to outsiders) form.They have some good points to make re. safety,but fall back on the tired old "class war" cliches.

Do RMT members feel that their subs are being well-spent in the Press Office department?

Only their press releases were the only thing that decod D water I'd joined the RMT as a member of staff and I were a member of staff, I wouldn't join.

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[JamesTT]

FACT no one knows what is going to happen to the OBS staff come the next franchise it is all just speculation. What happened in the past is not a guarantee of what will happen in the future.

 

[Haig paxton]

The members on here who belittle the Guard's role have probably failed the assessments in the past. They couldn't do the job but are happy to see those who can be tossed aside like an old shoe.

 

[AlterEgo]

The members on here who belittle the Guard's role have probably failed the assessments in the past. They couldn't do the job but are happy to see those who can be tossed aside like an old shoe.

What makes you say that, except frustration?

 

[Haig paxton]

What makes you say that, except frustration?

I'm not frustrated but I can see why those who have applied and failed as so hostile towards the retention of guards.

 

[JamesTT]

The members on here who belittle the Guard's role have probably failed the assessments in the past. They couldn't do the job but are happy to see those who can be tossed aside like an old shoe.

I think the rail industry belittled the Guard's role 30 years ago when they introduced DOO.

 

[AlterEgo]

I'm not frustrated but I can see why those who have applied and failed as so hostile towards the retention of guards.

I'm sure some of them are failed guards, yes. But equally there are people who wouldn't ever have applied for the role.

As far as I'm concerned, I used to work for the railways until 2015. My natural progression route was either via a controller's job or becoming a conductor. I could see that controller jobs were "dead man's shoes" and that, in the future, the guard would become a political toy - and not something to make a career out of. So, I left. And it was a great decision.

I do feel sorry for guards; I don't wish for job insecurity on anyone, nor do I want people's standards of living or terms of employment to decrease. But if we are all honest with ourselves, change is coming, and in 10-20 years I can see the traditional role of the guard will have evaporated.

The RMT are merely assisting that process by having a comms strategy which consists of a press officer bellowing class war clichés alternately into a journo's phone, a TV camera, and his waste paper bin.

 

[highdyke]

I'm not frustrated but I can see why those who have applied and failed as so hostile towards the retention of guards.

I've passed similar tests to become a signaller, never applied for train crew. Reached a very high grade, did other jobs. Left because I wanted to do other things, work in a different industry and love it to bits.

Looking at the ROC programme (which was talked about back in BR days, and certainly in Railtrack days, before they ran out of cash) the writing was on the wall. Network Rail have to be congratulated for change management, reducing I think, 8,000 posts into 800. Sheffield PSB closed a few weeks back reducing 5 positions to 2 per shift, using an Hitachi version of ARS. This was a very militant area back in the day, they could have easily have made the argument one man looking after a bigger area was a safety risk, but it's managed well.

I don't really see the problem with this because rail is right now a growing industry, and everyone can be accommodated and not chucked on the scrapheap with a little flexibility on both sides.

 

[infobleep]

FACT no one knows what is going to happen to the OBS staff come the next franchise it is all just speculation. What happened in the past is not a guarantee of what will happen in the future.

Peehaos we could have a referendum on whether we want the guards role to become an OBS role then? After all no one could say what would happen to us if we leave the EU and we had a referendum on the issue!

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I've passed similar tests to become a signaller, never applied for train crew. Reached a very high grade, did other jobs. Left because I wanted to do other things, work in a different industry and love it to bits.

Looking at the ROC programme (which was talked about back in BR days, and certainly in Railtrack days, before they ran out of cash) the writing was on the wall. Network Rail have to be congratulated for change management, reducing I think, 8,000 posts into 800. Sheffield PSB closed a few weeks back reducing 5 positions to 2 per shift, using an Hitachi version of ARS. This was a very militant area back in the day, they could have easily have made the argument one man looking after a bigger area was a safety risk, but it's managed well.

I don't really see the problem with this because rail is right now a growing industry, and everyone can be accommodated and not chucked on the scrapheap with a little flexibility on both sides.

So if the OBS roles were to go and station staff reduced, where else could all the staff be employed in the growing rail industry? I'm talking hypothetically here because we don't know what will happen. I don't have am answer to this because I don't work in the industry myself.

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[highdyke]

So if the OBS roles were to go and station staff reduced, where else could all the staff be employed in the growing rail industry? I'm talking hypothetically here because we don't know what will happen. I don't have am answer to this because I don't work in the industry myself.

I couldn't tell you off hand, because I don't have any internal insight these days, but it's an industry with shortages in some places and an older age profile. Even *if* all guards and obs positions were being abolished, and frankly that is not being talked about, it would take as long as the ROC programme. Signalling upgrades are tied in with DOO.

I find it hard to believe people could not be accommodated. For my money, this is what the unions jobs is, to accommodate these sorts of changes without compulsory redundancies.

 

[speedy_sticks]

Nor mine when i've been involved in major high profile crashes and not so high profile near misses, as well as people like 74 etc

I agree through there is nothing more to be said and you cannot say anything on this forum, which used to be good, but now has turned into a mess room with vested interests from an extreme left wing union attacking people left, right and centre, with their supporters adding more slops to the trough, many of whom have no bloody clue what they are talking about.

No problem with people protecting their rights, do have a problem with such an extreme position considering we have tech to deal with line protection, which could be enhanced even further given a little imagination. Hell I'd take the operation of the doors out of the hands of both driver and guard, we've the tech to do that too.

This debate will still being going on in 20 years, when every other forms of transport can more or less run itself, with the railways a national joke. There's plenty of people out there that think they are a victorian oddity as it is.

What a bloody shame.

I'll leave you with this.

http://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-dismisses-half-hearted-belated-apology/?

"We don't want his half-baked apologies, we want him to call off the dogs and get back to serious industrial relations"

Oh the irony.

The problem is the fact is that OBS degrades human rights in terms of spontaneous travel.

It already happens on HS1 and to a lesser extent on Thameslink.

GTR have no back up plan, the folks who draw up these franchises don't seem to care for disabled or vulnerable people and that is deeply unfortunate.

 

[HH]

So if the OBS roles were to go and station staff reduced, where else could all the staff be employed in the growing rail industry?

Growth comes from the ever increasing number of trains. Plus I would expect more jobs in revenue protection and customer service.

 

[speedy_sticks]

I couldn't tell you off hand, because I don't have any internal insight these days, but it's an industry with shortages in some places and an older age profile. Even *if* all guards and obs positions were being abolished, and frankly that is not being talked about, it would take as long as the ROC programme. Signalling upgrades are tied in with DOO.

I find it hard to believe people could not be accommodated. For my money, this is what the unions jobs is, to accommodate these sorts of changes without compulsory redundancies.

Simple answer is to make OBS carry out platform duties at every stop.

 

[highdyke]

The problem is the fact is that OBS degrades human rights in terms of spontaneous travel.

It already happens on HS1 and to a lesser extent on Thameslink.

GTR have no back up plan, the folks who draw up these franchises don't seem to care for disabled or vulnerable people and that is deeply unfortunate.

Yep, okay you've made that point 100 times, there are ways to manage these things. You don't have to keep making the same point over and over again, everyone knows your view.

 

[JamesTT]

Peehaos we could have a referendum on whether we want the guards role to become an OBS role then? After all no one could say what would happen to us if we leave the EU and we had a referendum on the issue!



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I take it your reference to the EU referendum is that 'experts' said what will happen and the proles ignored them. Everyone on here who says OBS staff will be made redundant is an expert and what they say will come true?

 

[speedy_sticks]

Yep, okay you've made that point 100 times, there are ways to manage these things. You don't have to keep making the same point over and over again, everyone knows your view.

I shall keep making it, because unlike the safety case for DOO, nobody here has a factual answer to what I would do without a guard doing platform duties.

 

[highdyke]

I shall keep making it, because unlike the safety case for DOO, nobody hear has a factual answer to what I would do without a guard doing platform duties.

I'd write to the new rail minister who has long championed disabled rights.

 

[JamesTT]

Regarding passengers requiring assistance isn't the plan to have an OBS on trains that previously had a guard? Will the OBS have a GOP panel key so they can stop doors from shutting whilst giving assistance?

The fact that if the OBS is not available the train can still run is not good for those requiring assistance. But surely this is better than cancelling the train and having to load 2 train loads of people on the next train

 

[speedy_sticks]

Regarding passengers requiring assistance isn't the plan to have an OBS on trains that previously had a guard? Will the OBS have a GOP panel key so they can stop doors from shutting whilst giving assistance?

The fact that if the OBS is not available the train can still run is not good for those requiring assistance. But surely this is better than cancelling the train and having to load 2 train loads of people on the next train

Isn't that discrimination?

Once again, try being in a wheelchair for a day.

 

[infobleep]

I take it your reference to the EU referendum is that 'experts' said what will happen and the proles ignored them. Everyone on here who says OBS staff will be made redundant is an expert and what they say will come true?

No its a reference to the what those who campaigned to leave and those who campaigned to stay stated. Both sides could only say what they thought would happen because it hadn't happened and we all got to vote on which people we thought were likely to bw right or simply on our own views, ignoring any facts from either side!

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Regarding passengers requiring assistance isn't the plan to have an OBS on trains that previously had a guard? Will the OBS have a GOP panel key so they can stop doors from shutting whilst giving assistance?

The fact that if the OBS is not available the train can still run is not good for those requiring assistance. But surely this is better than cancelling the train and having to load 2 train loads of people on the next train

But if the OBS role ever goes then the disabled will be disadvantaged everytime.

No one knows what is going to happen. Just like the EU referendum, no one knew what would were we to stay or leave.

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[JamesTT]

No its a reference to the what those who campaigned to leave and those who campaigned to stay stated. Both sides could only say what they thought would happen because it hadn't happened and we all got to vote on which people we thought were likely to bw right or simply on our own views, ignoring any facts from either side!

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But if the OBS role ever goes then the disabled will be disadvantaged everytime.

No one knows what is going to happen. Just like the EU referendum, no one knew what would were we to stay or leave.

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The only FACT is that people can't guarantee what is going to happen. Regards OBS role going that is where I think there will be a breach of DDA.

 

[infobleep]

The only FACT is that people can't guarantee what is going to happen. Regards OBS role going that is where I think there will be a breach of DDA.

What is DDA?

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[Domh245]

What is DDA?

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Disability Discrimination Act (1995), although it has since by replaced by the Equality Act (2010)

 

[infobleep]

Disability Discrimination Act (1995), although it has since by replaced by the Equality Act (2010)

Thanks

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[AlterEgo]

Isn't that discrimination?

Once again, try being in a wheelchair for a day.

We're back to trying to find out if this is against the Equality Act.

Essentially, if no OBS is available and the train still runs, and a disabled person can't be accommodated, you're saying it's discrimination.

Would it be okay if they cancelled the train? At least then, there wouldn't be any discrimination.

FWIW, I doubt this is against the Equality Act - trains may run for extended periods with no toilet, for example. This is a question that ought to be picked up by your MP.

 

[speedy_sticks]

We're back to trying to find out if this is against the Equality Act.

Essentially, if no OBS is available and the train still runs, and a disabled person can't be accommodated, you're saying it's discrimination.

Would it be okay if they cancelled the train? At least then, there wouldn't be any discrimination.

FWIW, I doubt this is against the Equality Act - trains may run for extended periods with no toilet, for example. This is a question that ought to be picked up by your MP.

That would be a very incompetent excuse.

Does anybody have figures of the percentage of trains cancelled for each year for the last 25 years due to no guard.

The flexibility of the OBS role would artificially make it a certainty that more trains will run without an OBS, they can be taken off at any stage if required, if they issue a penalty fare,they will have to exit the train at any stop.

How will I be able to get hold of an OBS if platform duties are vulantary? How will I know the train has one, how will I know if the OBS gets off mid route?

 

[Haig paxton]

That would be a very incompetent excuse.

Does anybody have figures of the percentage of trains cancelled for each year for the last 25 years due to no guard.

The flexibility of the OBS role would artificially make it a certainty that more trains will run without an OBS, they can be taken off at any stage if required, if they issue a penalty fare,they will have to exit the train at any stop.

How will I be able to get hold of an OBS if platform duties are vulantary? How will I know the train has one, how will I know if the OBS gets off mid route?

Maybe if you press the help point they'll get you a taxi. I think that happens in Scotland a lot where disabled passengers can't travel for whatever reason.