Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[JamesTT]

Well Mersyrail, RAIB and ORR (the professional experts in the matter) seem to be happy with what the guard did. So I'd say the CPS are clutching at straws.

Hypothetical speaking and this comment is not in relation to a specific case of course. If a safety critical member of staff, followed all of the procedures as set out in the rule book, but there was still an incident. Are there any circumstances people could envisage that member of staff could still be deemed negligent?

 

[DarloRich]

Hypothetical speaking and this comment is not in relation to a specific case of course. If a safety critical member of staff, followed all of the procedures as set out in the rule book, but there was still an incident. Are there any circumstances people could envisage that member of staff could still be deemed negligent?

yes - in a situation where the test for criminal negligence is different to the test applied by "the railway" in determining a seemingly correct action.

 

[FordFocus]

Hypothetical speaking and this comment is not in relation to a specific case of course. If a safety critical member of staff, followed all of the procedures as set out in the rule book, but there was still an incident. Are there any circumstances people could envisage that member of staff could still be deemed negligent?

Although you said it's not about a specific case, my question along with many others is why is the individual and not the company in court? The individual followed the company procedures and followed the rule book instructions written by the industry body, the RSSB. Both found no wrong doing yet the CPS has taken the individual to court with a High Court day in July.

This is one of the reasons why drivers are very, very reluctant to introduce or expand DOO.

As a side note, the GTR v ASLEF case for the Southern strike ballot verdict is now due next Thursday.

 

[tony6499]

New Train Contract will allow Govia Thameslink Railway to inflict 9000 more train cancellations on their passengers.

A new government agreement, representing a last ditch attempt to prevent the termination of the Govia Thameslink railway franchise agreement, will allow the company to increase train cancellations by a third, from 23,391 to 32,000 a year, representing almost 9000 additional cancellations per year the RMT has revealed.

The “remedial plan” was produced in February by GTR and agreed with the Government but was only smuggled out by Ministers under a raft of complex franchise documents on 26 May.

The purpose of the Plan, which has amended the original franchise agreement is “to address GTR's contractual breach of the Schedule 7.1 benchmark for cancellations…and admits that “the overall number of cancellations has increased and GTR have exceeded its threshold for TOC [Train Operating Company] cancellations.”

But astonishingly the plan then goes on to allow GTR to inflict more misery on passengers by increasing the “Default performance level” for train cancellations by a third from 2.01% of train services in the original franchise agreement to a maximum of 2.75% in the new agreement over the coming months. The Default performance level will also continue to allow for more trains to be cancelled under the new agreement compared to the original franchise agreement.

RMT estimates that on average this will increase the number of trains cancelled before GTR is in breach of its franchise agreement from 23,391 to 32,000.

At the same time a new independent poll by Opinium has found that 87% of passengers who have to endure using GTR every day want the company thrown off the railway and the service nationalised.

The Remedial Plan, which was agreed in February before any industrial action, also admits that the controversial and unpopular Driver Only Operation system already operated on part of the network has,

“significantly increased the number of incidents”.. “causing trains to be delayed and in some cases restricted to call at staffed stations only or cancelled.”

Under an alarming interpretation of the Freedom of Information Act, the Secretary of State for Transport Patrick McCloughlin has also ordered 25 redactions, mostly relating to staffing issues, from the 20 page document. Despite this the document admits that issues relating to drivers are caused by mismanagement and regular disruption to the franchise has had “a debilitating effect on frontline staff, including traincrew.”

RMT General Secretary Mick Cash said:

“The dirty secrets of rail franchising are dragged out under the spotlight in this heavily-redacted document which will send shock-waves through the rail industry and which will also spark a new wave of anger amongst the passengers on the GTR franchise who are caught in the middle of this scandal.

“Not only are the Government bending the rules, and inflicting more misery on the travelling public, but they are admitting that Driver Only Operation, the issue at the heart of the current Southern dispute, has already compromised safety and led to a spate of cancellations. The Government are now opening the door to GTR to hack-back and cancel services at will without fear of any penalty.

“It is shocking that the day after even Tory MP’s were lining up to demand that GTR be stripped of the franchise that the Government have done the complete opposite and given the company carte-blanche to carry on treating their passengers and staff with complete and utter contempt.

“Nearly 90% of GTR’s regular users want the company thrown out and the routes taken under public ownership. This document will fuel that campaign and RMT will be making sure that everyone knows just what is going on in the dark, sordid corners of the rail franchising racket.”

 

[HH]

There (phew) is a word for this unfortunate problem of spelling or grammar correctors themselves making an error and if anyone can supply it I would be grateful. OT.

I think we're talking about hubris.

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Yup absolutely true. With the complexity of delivering Thameslink and London Bridge (and now I wonder if also DOO might have been included on that list) I believe a full franchise was felt in appropriate

Amusing then that the government website says otherwise.

It might walk like a duck and quack like a duck, but apparently it's a swan...

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The ticket revenue goes to DfT and TSGN get paid according to how they deliver against DfT's agreed metrics. (Very similar to how TfL control London Overground operated by Arriva (formerly MTR+Arriva)).
The Contractor has far less freedom and takes far more instruction from the contractee. e.g. TSGN don't sneeze without DfT's permission.

Good story, but not actually true.

They bid a franchise payment based on a percentage of costs. There are also possible penalty payments if they don't meet certain metrics, like performance and revenue protection. Follow my link above if you wish to know more.

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At the same time a new independent poll by Opinium has found that 87% of passengers who have to endure using GTR every day want the company thrown off the railway and the service nationalised.

For those of you unfamiliar with this organisation, I suggest visiting here. It suggests that those surveyed are not random and therefore the results are, putting it delicately, dubious. Nevertheless I'm sure GTR are extremely unpopular at present.

A good Press Release by RMT though, and if they stretch a truth here, and tell a half-truth there, well, who can say that GTR/DfT don't deserve it?

P.S. Someone tell them that Carte Blanche is not hyphenated.

 

[ainsworth74]

Amusing then that the government website says otherwise.

It might walk like a duck and quack like a duck, but apparently it's a swan...

I give up *throws hands in the air* :roll:

When the DfT make their mind up with what they want to do this week someone tell me?

A good Press Release by RMT though, and if they stretch a truth here, and tell a half-truth there, well, who can say that GTR/DfT don't deserve it?

I have no problem with them stretching the truth as it's no worse than what GTR/DfT are doing. My problem is just the tone and language they use!

 

[HH]

For those of you who care to risk their blood boiling over, the amusingly redacted remedial plan can be found here. Has anyone managed to find it via the DfT website? I though not...

 

[Robertj21a]

At the same time a new independent poll by Opinium has found that 87% of passengers who have to endure using GTR every day want the company thrown off the railway and the service nationalised.

.”

It's a better Press Release than some from RMT - until I read this nonsense. I simply can't believe that 87% of passengers (so, millions ?) want the company thrown off *and* the service nationalised.

It's a stupid, obviously inaccurate, statement which just makes the reader wonder how much else is questionable.

 

[bengley]

It's a better Press Release than some from RMT - until I read this nonsense. I simply can't believe that 87% of passengers (so, millions ?) want the company thrown off *and* the service nationalised.

It's a stupid, obviously inaccurate, statement which just makes the reader wonder how much else is questionable.

I'd say that's a pretty accurate percentage of regular commuters who are disgruntled

 

[Robertj21a]

I'd say that's a pretty accurate percentage of regular commuters who are disgruntled

Possibly, but they never said 'disgruntled'.

They really do need to pick their words carefully, not throw meaningless statements around.

 

[bengley]

Possibly, but they never said 'disgruntled'.

They really do need to pick their words carefully, not throw meaningless statements around.

87% of those asked said they wanted GTR stripped of the franchise.

It's not going to be completely representative of everyone but it gives us a good idea as to the general feeling towards the company.

 

[Carlisle]

As a side note, the GTR v ASLEF case for the Southern strike ballot verdict is now due next Thursday.

In an ideal world I'd like to think both sides would be close to a deal by then, and the decision would be largely irrelevant

 

[RichardN]

For those of you who care to risk their blood boiling over, the amusingly redacted remedial plan can be found here. Has anyone managed to find it via the DfT website? I though not...

My best guess for commitment 1., section 4. "Move to DOO dispatch across all brands"..

 

[DarloRich]

It's a better Press Release than some from RMT - until I read this nonsense. I simply can't believe that 87% of passengers (so, millions ?) want the company thrown off *and* the service nationalised.

It's a stupid, obviously inaccurate, statement which just makes the reader wonder how much else is questionable.

i am not sure you understand surveys - they are designed to provide the response the commissioner requires It might well reflect the unhappiness of those who travel GTR daily

 

[Agent_c]

One thing I don't understand... if GTR are really doing the governments bidding on this, rather than risk poison to their own brand(s), Why not just throw the blame for the decision on the government publicly?

 

[infobleep]

One thing I don't understand... if GTR are really doing the governments bidding on this, rather than risk poison to their own brand(s), Why not just throw the blame for the decision on the government publicly?

Perhaps the government might turn on them and they lose their franchise? Hung out to dry?

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[DarloRich]

One thing I don't understand... if GTR are really doing the governments bidding on this, rather than risk poison to their own brand(s), Why not just throw the blame for the decision on the government publicly?

one doesn't bite the hand that feeds!

 

[Robertj21a]

87% of those asked said they wanted GTR stripped of the franchise.

It's not going to be completely representative of everyone but it gives us a good idea as to the general feeling towards the company.

As you say, 87% OF THOSE ASKED. Without further data, and context, it's totally meaningless.

 

[Agent_c]

one doesn't bite the hand that feeds!

If the hand is feeding poison though?

 

[Southern Dvr]

Or do people higher up in the union not listen to members concerns?

I've yet to find anyone in management or union who listens properly to members concerns

If the hand is feeding poison though?

It isn't poison though, it's feeding them money which is what they want.

 

[Secrettraindri]

If the hand is feeding poison though?

Don't think it makes any difference. Railways always come way down the list after tax house prices health education defence etc at election time. If they had been more politically sensitive successive governments wouldn't have mucked around with them or neglected them in the way they have done. And for the execs of the TOC...well there's always another top TOC job, or a bus company, refuse collection, academy, quango like the RSSB or RAIB etc. It's passengers and staff that lose out from all this and they seem to think the same of both of us.

 

[D1009]

Good story, but not actually true.

They bid a franchise payment based on a percentage of costs. There are also possible penalty payments if they don't meet certain metrics, like performance and revenue protection. Follow my link above if you wish to know more.

So presumably their thinking is to have improved revenue protection, they have to implement DOO with the OBS role?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It's a better Press Release than some from RMT - until I read this nonsense. I simply can't believe that 87% of passengers (so, millions ?) want the company thrown off *and* the service nationalised.

It's a stupid, obviously inaccurate, statement which just makes the reader wonder how much else is questionable.

Does anyone still not believe me when I said that the leadership of the union reveals its current Socialist political agenda in most of its press releases.

Forget the constant "union-speak" handbook usage of "useful Socialist phrases" and represent your union membership in a modern 21st century manner in your press releases.
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Perhaps the government might turn on them and they lose their franchise? Hung out to dry?

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

Is this the "franchise" that is not a franchise....but a concession?
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If the hand is feeding poison though?

Even more a case for not biting it...:roll:

 

[HH]

So presumably their thinking is to have improved revenue protection, they have to implement DOO with the OBS role?

That's certainly what DfT think - DOO was mandatory in the ITT. This is another area where RMT has failed its members. The reaction is as if this is a bolt out of the blue, but DOO was specified to all bidders. The only question left to them was when and exactly how much.

By the way, the opening section was a long list of excuses as to why driver numbers are lower than expected. To me it reads as if GTR simply got the numbers wrong. Given the cost of drivers it could be a major reason why their bid was cheaper than others. In return for taking the flak on DOO, has DfT allowed them to increase the price to cover more realistic numbers?

 

[Secrettraindri]

Does anyone still not believe me when I said that the leadership of the union reveals its current Socialist political agenda in most of its press releases.

Forget the constant "union-speak" handbook usage of "useful Socialist phrases" and represent your union membership in a modern 21st century manner in your press releases.
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These political agendas are shameful. Like certain execs being involved in "independent" safety bodies AND running TOCs that are deliberately reducing safer working to save money. Or the government quietly allowing them to run a worse service without penalty whilst getting them to steamroller through a policy that will undermine safety and organised labour across the whole country. Sorry if "organised labour" dares to be 1970s in its tone.

 

[hwl]

That's certainly what DfT think - DOO was mandatory in the ITT. This is another area where RMT has failed its members. The reaction is as if this is a bolt out of the blue, but DOO was specified to all bidders. The only question left to them was when and exactly how much.

By the way, the opening section was a long list of excuses as to why driver numbers are lower than expected. To me it reads as if GTR simply got the numbers wrong. Given the cost of drivers it could be a major reason why their bid was cheaper than others. In return for taking the flak on DOO, has DfT allowed them to increase the price to cover more realistic numbers?

If 50+ people on RUK knew DOO was on the cards in the ITT then it shouldn be news to the RMT.

If you read the rolling stock issues parts of the report it very much appears F***t left them plenty of issues to resolve. The train reliably graph for TL & GN on page 7 show issues when through the roof on TL as soon as bids were delivered for example.
Also plenty of long term issues not resolved or even attempted by F***t. e.g. PIBS at St Pancras.
TL 377/2 & /5s being far less reliable than SN units when the took over.
Minimal heavy maintenance on 319s before takeover leading to backlog.
The hangover of F***t imfamous "no sundays" contract

GTR /SN did screw up the Jan and May 2015 timetables with the 24 vs 22tph issues at LBG but they had been told by NR in advance...

Also hints that F***t didn't bother to try to retain or recruit drivers before the handover.

• lower than anticipated qualified drivers inherited from the previous franchisees
• insufficient drivers in training to meet future resource requirements at the start of
the franchise
• higher than anticipated driver turnover
• inherited backlog in driver training for engineering projects and route knowledge
• unsustainable levels of rest day working also leading to significantly higher than
anticipated “ banked days”

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Sorry if "organised labour" dares to be 1970s in its tone.

Dares to be 1970 in its tone? You'll all be looking up your 1926 General Strike "soundbites" to quote next....:roll:

Is it that by using these totally outdated 1970 "stock Socialist phrases" that you still have a fervent hope that those days were back again?

 

[Drogba11CFC]

I've noticed rumours on twitter that the RMT are holding a "Day of Action" on 15th June to campaign for Britain to leave the EU. Can anyone confirm this, and if so, what would it entail? Would I need to change my ALR dates?

 

[DelayRepay]

One thing I don't understand... if GTR are really doing the governments bidding on this, rather than risk poison to their own brand(s), Why not just throw the blame for the decision on the government publicly?

Maybe the G stands for Government: Government's Thameslink Railway.

 

[Antman]

Perhaps the government might turn on them and they lose their franchise? Hung out to dry?

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

Can a franchise really be lost for speaking out about something? I wouldn't have thought so.